Out of control dogs that rush my puppy

[ClareMarsh]

Hi all,

This is my first post although I have been reading for a few days now and have already started to see positive changes in my dog from using the methods recommended on here. Before I was using a mixture of things I'd read everywhere and I think the inconsistency wasn't helping. Anyway that's another story. What I'm looking for help with is what to do when an off the lead dog charges at my dog.

Background:
I have a long haired chihuahua puppy called Ted who is just over 4 months old. We go for two short walks a day and for the last few days I've been putting him on a long training lead so that he can have a bit more freedom for part of the walk. I only let him off the lead in a very safe areas (although will be rethinking that for a while after today) and we tend to walk in the local park where there are frequently dogs around. He's a pretty confident little chap and keen to meet people and dogs and starting to learn manners about how to interact with the other dogs that he meets. He's enrolled in puppy classes but they haven't started yet. He's fed on the raw meaty bones diet (which he loves) and his treats are home made dried liver (which he loves even more).

My question:
My question is what to do when an off the lead dog races at Ted. It doesn't happen very often as I am always looking ahead to avoid such confrontations (he is usually in wide open spaces with me) and I stick to him meeting on the lead dogs that I feel are under control (I usually speak to the owners first too to make sure he should be ok).

It's happened twice in two days now though and here is what I have done. First let me say in the back of my mind I am wary about just scooping him up every time as I don't want to introduce a fear response in him but I am now wondering if that is actually the right thing to do:
The first instance was a staffie that started running towards us and the owner couldn't call it back to him. As it got to about 5/10 meters away I just picked Ted up and then it lost interest and ran off never coming back. Ted didn't seem to take much notice of what was going on as I was just chattering to him to distract him.
Today we were walking back towards home across the park and a woman opened her car door and a medium sized dog (no idea what it was but very fluffy) shot out of the car door and came hurtling towards Ted. Before I could think what to do it jumped on him growling and snarling and I (wrongly I know but Ted was stuck in a brawl) dragged him out of it. He was physically unscathed but squealing for about 2 minutes and shaking and understandably was extremely wary of any other dogs we saw afterwards (I did keep him away from them but didn't want to whisk him home straight away). I told the woman off, and although she said he doesn't normally do that and asked if Ted was ok (he was screaming at this point so clearly not) I felt it best to get Ted away from the situation so we walked off.

So I am now thinking that if in doubt I should pick Ted up and keep him out of harms way until the other dog is suitably under control but I want to check that this isn't going to make him fearful in itself. He might be a chihuahua but I didn't have him to carry him around in my handbag. Also I guess if I had a bigger pup I would need another solution so I wondered if there was another way I should deal with this sort of thing?

Thanks in advance,

Clare

[Raichyrae]

No advice but really feeling for you after what must have been a terrfiying experience for you and the puppy. We had a similar one two days ago when an over exuberant lab girl bounded up off lead (Gel was on lead as I haven't done enough recall with him yet to be safe) with the owner panting after her fruitlessly shouting her to come back. Luckily the lab was friendly but waaaayyyy too exuberant to be bouncing on a puppy but no harm was done...in fact Gel enjoyed it mostly apart from one crouch under my legs to get his breath and confidence back though I was actually shaking. In that circumstance I just tried to get both dogs to focus on me and talked soothingly till the other dog owner came up and put the lead on but if she'd been aggressive I would have been stuck....awaiting the expert's response to this one eagerly.

[Sarah83]

I have an 80lb fear aggressive mutt so ANY dog approaching us is treated the exact same way regardless of its intentions. I put myself between the approaching dog and Rupert, keep myself there and use the Voice of Doom (a low, harsh, growly sort of voice) to tell it to "Git away!" I find that highly effective against single dogs approaching, unless they're hell bent on attacking they usually stay away from the scary human. Not so effective if a group of dogs is approaching though. Body blocking also works but by the time a dog is close enough for me to body block it's close enough for Rupert to attack it which usually means I get beaten up with his muzzle and shredded by his nails as I try to keep them apart. I have squirted dogs with the water bottle I usually have with me. I don't carry it for that purpose though. Not effective if the dog likes being sprayed with water. Not effective if the dog is hell bent on attacking. If Rupert were friendly I wouldn't worry about an obviously friendly dog coming up but he's not so I take measures to protect both the loose dog and him (him attacking can trigger even a friendly dog to retaliate).

If a dog is approaching with obviously aggressive tendencies then I'm afraid all bets are off. I will do WHATEVER is necessary to protect my dog, including kicking the approaching dog. I don't like doing it and it's probably not the smartest thing to do but I'd rather be bitten myself than my dog go through yet another attack and become more fearful.

Most small dog owners I know carry a walking stick with them to help protect their dog from aggressive dogs or even just dogs that get too rough. Not only can they hit the attacking dog with it but they can use it as a means to keep a dog at arms length and block it from theirs without putting their hands/arms in danger. And it's perfectly legal to carry a walking stick.

I'd be concerned about picking him up for a few reasons. One being that you don't want him to become fearful of other dogs. Another being that picking him up can actually trigger an aggressive response from another dog. And you yourself could easily be bitten or otherwise hurt. I WOULD however pick him up if an approaching dog is obviously aggressive. With how small he is it would be all too easy for him to be seriously injured or worse.

[minkee]

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly, but in the mean time, here's a link to an article about one technique, called 'treat bombing' - viewtopic.php?f=20&t=12789 The idea is to just throw a handful of treats at the incoming dog, and while it's busy smooching around in the ground you can just lead your pup away. When to use this, and when to use body blocking, and when to use any other techniques, however, is beyond my knowledge :)

I will say that if anyone picks up their dog, my pup instantly gets very interested. I'm not sure what it is about it, but it definitely triggers something in her that makes her want to go investigate.

[ClareMarsh]

I especially like the treat bomb idea as if a dog ignores that then I know it's trouble and physical safety can rapidly become my priority. The incident with the staffie had zero impact as he was wagging his tail to meet the next dog we saw, a lab. But today he (understandably) was cowering from even a tiny dog that was hundreds of yards away that we saw after what happened.

On each of Ted's walks we must see at least 5 to 10 dogs, I typically make sure he meets a few of these each time (of all shapes and sizes) and he loves this. If a dog is too boisterous for him and he hides under me I never pick him up then, just make sure he's safe and give him time to gain his confidence and come back out to play. So it's not like I am constantly picking him up and if I am removing him from rare situations that I am unsure of to prevent potential incidents then I'm going to have to do this sometimes as like you say it could end very badly so easily as he is so little. And it's not like this happens all the time, I am always planning ahead with him as he's such a titch I even have to watch out for crows if i have him off the lead running a distance from me!

For my own piece of mind I guess I need to try the blocking techniques with some slower/more obviously friendly dogs so that I have confidence in me otherwise I could get it all wrong in a moment of panic.

We'll be going for out afternoon walk later so I'll be hoping we spot some nice friendly dogs for Ted to say hello to, provided he's up to it after this morning of course, if not then I am going to be even more angry with that owner (although I know that helps no one) and we'll have to work back up to it at Ted's pace.

Thanks everyone for your advice so far,

Clare

[Nettle]

Dollars to doughnuts the most ill-behaved dogs have once upon a time been trained to sit (it seems to be the only thing ineffective dog owners do ) so having got my dogs behind me I ROAR "Sit" (Voice of Doom) and at the same time step forward with one raised arm rather like the fencing en-garde stance. As an alternative, if I am wearing a coat I open it out to make me bigger. I am 5 foot 4.

The vast majority of dogs quail at this and either sit or back off. My next roar is GET! and usually they do.

Obviously I am normally very quiet, shy and retiring I have had to learn this to protect my dogs.

I often have a walking stick, and if I do, I aim to trip the approaching dog not hit it.

1. Certain types of dog are so thick they don't feel it

2. It saves the owners getting antsy as they haven't seen what you have done - and nobody likes the idea of their dog being hit, no matter how unruly it is

We have to commit to doing whatever it takes to protect our dogs. Sadly, this situation exists whether you have a chihuahua or a wolfhound, but obviously a chi is far more vulnerable.

[jacksdad]

this happens to me from time to time and I have to step up and protect my fear aggressive/reactive chihuahua/Jack Russel mix. the more I protect him, the better I get at it, the better I get at it, the more he lets me deal with the other rude dogs. it's taken some time, but he gets it now.

I have run the extremes on this....on one end the very first time I had to protect Jack it included pulling him out of another dog's mouth. fortunately the dog had ended up with a mouth full of harness and not a mouth full of Jack. On the other end of the spectrum I have only had to fend off dogs who just won't stop sniffing and licking Jack even though everything about him says please stop.

You will be surprised how little it takes for most dogs to get the message and leave you alone. I rarely have to do much more than just step so that I am between my dog and the on coming dog. "escalation" might be just pivoting my upper body square towards the other dog and leaning forward a little. this is all often while we continue on not stopping.

For times that I need to do more, the already offered suggestions by others work wonderfully.

One of the key's I have found to be very helpful for making the call what to do is learning to read dog body language. even just basic beginner stuff is a GREAT help. Another is don't panic. easier said than done, but the more you take action the more confident you will become and the easier it will be to not panic.

Picking up your dog is a risky thing. but not because you might "teach fear", you won't. But even if you could, that risk is far less an issue than another dog seriously harming your dog. Rather the biggest concern is your dog will feel trapped and try and jump from your arms and get hurt in the fall. Just something to keep in mind. I have used this option my self, my dog has demonstrated that in some situations he in fact feels safe with me holding him. I just have to learn when those times are and only use this option in those situations. But if I have to choose between any side affect of me picking my dog up verse him being mauled, I will pick him up. But you have to make the choice for your self, I can't tell what to do.

Lastly don't feel bad about protecting your dog. the other party can claim all they want you over reacted, just ignore them. It just happened to me a few days ago. A rather large golden all out ran, not just a fast bounding playful trot, but an all out run like an arrow right at us. when I moved to address this, the dog's person freaked out and started trying to tell me her dog is friendly, that just how he plays etc. But you know what, my fear aggressive dog knowing I would address this charging dog didn't flip out and stayed behind me by choice. I know he did because I dropped his leash so I could face the on coming dog. afterwards my dog was displaying very calm and relaxed body language. you do this enough for your dog, they get it.

[ClareMarsh]

Thanks so much, now I have had time to think about which (which I should have done before but hindsight is a wonderful thing eh!) I think I can start to practice this stuff with dogs that are clearly just in it to play to build my confidence. Such a shame that the dogs are the ones that get the stick/shouted at though eh, after it had happened my boyfriend said on e-mail didn't you want to kick the dog, I said no I just wanted Ted safe but I did want to punch his owner (I do a little boxing for exercise)

Anyway, most important thing is Ted went back to the scene of the crime (well a different part of the heath but close enough) and was a little trouper. A bit more vigilant at first (although that could have been because he could hear children and he loves their squeaky voices) but he soon got into his stride running around picking up leaves and bits of stick We were lucky enough to meet a dog on a lead (owner roller skating behind her) and Ted greeted her (Rhodesian Ridgeback) without any sign of fear from this morning! (I do know I might not have the same reaction to medium sized fluffy dogs but that's another day eh). She was more interested in the smell emanating from my pocket than in me, Ted or her owner so I did smile to myself thinking of treat bombs!

Will keep you posted on this but I do feel that I have more weapons to deal with bad owners dogs now to hopefully keep picking him up to a minimum.

Clare xx

[ClareMarsh]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to update you on how things are going so that you know your advice is appreciated and being put into action.

First up I have been practicing stepping in front of Ted and stopping dogs that are jogging towards him (not had any flat out yet thank goodness) with 100% success. It seems my chosen word at the moment is "whoaaaaa" (like stopping a horse!) using the voice of doom, all dogs approaching have changed their attention from Ted to me and either stopped or, in one instance, lay down! If the owner has come up I have asked for the dog to be leashed if they want them to meet Ted or if the owner is no where to be seen I have then sent the dog off with "off", more voice of doom, and stepping towards them. Let me say that these were dogs that I was not concerned about and any that have looked too exuberant and off lead we have simply avoided

Secondly I am much more aware of how Ted is feeling (I really learnt from what Jack's Dad wrote). It has become apparent that if there are lots of dogs around Ted is not comfortable, to the point where he comes and sits at my feet looking up (Ted speak for pick me up please), I'm not sure whether Ted has just started doing this or whether I just didn't notice before. Yesterday he slowed down his activity at the park until we got to the point of him asking to be picked up. I moved to a quieter bit of the park (with the intention of going home if he wasn't comfortable) and he immediately started running around chasing leaves

Ted is also starting to learn which dogs are safe for him to go to and which aren't. Today we met a lady with a greyhound (on a lead) and she said that her dog was terrible with smaller dogs. Up until recently Ted would have been trying to get to the dog regardless but he sat at my feet then after a few minutes went behind me snuffling for leaves and twigs, so he's learning too which is great.

I've no doubt I have a lot to learn still but I feel that I understand Ted a lot more already, horay!

Thanks everyone so much for your help so far.

[Suzette]

That's wonderful Clare! Ted sounds like a sweet little pup but I do have a soft spot for long haired chihuahua's - they're just so darn cute!

[ClareMarsh]

Oh I love him to bits and he's a real cutie Suzette, too much so in fact because everyone wants to pick him up. When I say no they look most put out but he's a dog not a doll!

Your dog looks a really sweetie, beautiful colours

Clare xxx