The History:
I have three pitbulls in my home. All of them are about 3 years old. Two of them (Barnum, 65lbs and Bailey, 45lbs spayed) are brother and sister and are mine. The other pit (Gypsy, 65lbs, spayed) is my girlfriend Lynzi's, and we adopted her together from the local Animal Control. They knew little about her history at the shelter. The people who brought her into the shelter I believe were lying about her history. They said that she never had puppies, but clearly she did. She also has plenty of small scars on her face and some on her body. As I said we know next to nothing about her history, but it doesn't seem like it was a positive one. When we played with her she was very sweet, mellow, and mildly behaved. All she wanted to do was to give kisses and lie on the dog bed in the play room at the shelter. We took her home that day. Shortly after we took her for a free routine vet visit provided by the shelter at a local vet. They noticed a swelling in her abdomen, and after taking x-rays they suggested immediate surgery. The swelling was caused by blood clots due to a uterine infection. After the surgery she had much more energy and was a much more playful dog. She was still a relatively well behaved dog and good natured, but she started showing some signs that she would need some obedience training. We worked with her and she respond well. She has some separation anxiety issues, and what appears to be aggression towards other dogs (I don't have this one figured out yet), but in general shes a good dog. She plays rough with my dogs, but that's what I expect from pitbulls. Their playing has never gotten close to being vicious.
What Happened:
Last night while I was out I received a call from my girlfriend, Lynzi, that my dog Bailey was just attacked by her dog Gypsy. I hurried home to find my roommate restraining Gypsy, and Lynzi in the bathroom with Bailey. What happened was that both dogs were playing with the same rope toy, and were making playful growling noises like they usually do. Gypsies growling became more intense and aggressive, and then Lynzi approached them to distract them and disarm the situation. Gypsy dropped the rope toy and attacked Bailey and sunk her teeth in around her neck. Bailey started yelping, but Gypsy would not let go. Gypsy began flinging Bailey around like a ragdoll. Lynzi then grabbed Bailey and held her close to Gypsy to prevent her from pulling to hard on her skin, and then preceded to yell at Gypsy. When she realized Gypsy was not going to let Bailey go she began punching her as hard as she could on the head for fear that Gypsy might kill Bailey. Gypsy would still not let go, and Lynzi said Gypsy's eyes were rolling back into her head and was making horrifying sounds. Lynzi then began screaming for our roommate Chris to come help. Chris came into the room and also began beating Gypsy on the head. It still had no effect so Chris grabbed Gypsy by the body, and Lynzi grabbed a screwdriver that was nearby and managed to get it into Gypsy's mouth, but Gypsy only let go after Lynzi had shoved it down her throat a couple times. After Gypsy let go she inadvertently bit Lynzi, and continued to make attempts at attacking Bailey but Chris still had ahold of her, and Lynzi had taken Bailey into the bathroom and shut the door. I got home a few minutes after all this brought a crate to the room and put gypsy in it. Then Chris and I carried the crate out of the room. At that point Gypsy had calmed down, and after cleaning the blood off of Bailey we took her to the vet. There are two puncture wounds on the back of Baileys neck and a few scratches plus a condition that develops when the skin is pulled on really hard where pockets of air get underneath the skin, but nothing too serious.
My Questions
Gypsy has always been good with my two dogs, and sweet and submissive towards Lynzi and myself. Why did this happen? Was this something caused by her mysterious past that was triggered by something that happened when the two dogs were playing? Is it likely that this will happen again, and worse maybe to Lynzi, myself or another dog or person? Should we take Gypsy back to Animal Control? Should we have her put down? This was very scary and traumatic for my dog Bailey and my girlfriend Lynzi. I certainly do not want this to happen again. Bailey could have easily been killed, and I certainly cannot afford the vet bills or worse a lawsuit. We are currently keeping the dogs in separate rooms, but this is not something that can be maintained. Something must be done.
Please any advice you can offer will help. This is a hard situation because of the love and fear we both have for Gypsy.
Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
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thedarkrocker
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:26 pm
- Location: Crystal Lake, IL USA
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
This happened because they are both bitches and are the same age and breed, the only real difference between them is size, and that Gypsy does not know when to back off, and play becomes real aggression.
It is not because they are Pitbulls, though I would think part of the reason it was so serious straight way is, because bless them Pitties are bred to have VERY high pain thresholds, to NOT back down and to hang on tightly. Not their fault, our fault, but thats the way it is.
Whether or not it is possible to re-introduce them and have them be friends, no one can really say.
If you are willing to put in a lot of work, able to keep them COMPLETELY seperate when not working with them, keep them muzzled when they are together and live with the tension that can cause - (and the work as being seperated from each other will mean some seperation from you as well). Then there is a chance - however I would NEVER have these two together unsupervised again, not even playing in another room.
We can go through the sorts of things you would need to do so you can see what the full picture is - honestly though if you choose not to (and I would consider it, but I have lived with dogs who wanted to kill one another and it is hard!), unless you know of a home with no other dogs that wants a pittie and is a reliable, sensible home, I would seriously consider having her PTS.
This is NOT because I think she couldn't live a happy life somewhere, even potentially with you - but because the numbers of pitties looking for homes that DONT have problems already, is huge. The number of homes that want problem free pitties is not that great.
The number of homes that want a pittie who has already had a damn good go at killing another dog in circumstances as you describe is practically nil, and there are in my opinion, things FAR worse than a painless, humane death, for a dog. Sitting in kennels for years on end is one of them!
It is not because they are Pitbulls, though I would think part of the reason it was so serious straight way is, because bless them Pitties are bred to have VERY high pain thresholds, to NOT back down and to hang on tightly. Not their fault, our fault, but thats the way it is.
Whether or not it is possible to re-introduce them and have them be friends, no one can really say.
If you are willing to put in a lot of work, able to keep them COMPLETELY seperate when not working with them, keep them muzzled when they are together and live with the tension that can cause - (and the work as being seperated from each other will mean some seperation from you as well). Then there is a chance - however I would NEVER have these two together unsupervised again, not even playing in another room.
We can go through the sorts of things you would need to do so you can see what the full picture is - honestly though if you choose not to (and I would consider it, but I have lived with dogs who wanted to kill one another and it is hard!), unless you know of a home with no other dogs that wants a pittie and is a reliable, sensible home, I would seriously consider having her PTS.
This is NOT because I think she couldn't live a happy life somewhere, even potentially with you - but because the numbers of pitties looking for homes that DONT have problems already, is huge. The number of homes that want problem free pitties is not that great.
The number of homes that want a pittie who has already had a damn good go at killing another dog in circumstances as you describe is practically nil, and there are in my opinion, things FAR worse than a painless, humane death, for a dog. Sitting in kennels for years on end is one of them!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
For a start, I don't know much about Pitbulls. But I might make a suggestion?
For years here in Scotland, there have been local country fairs, and from time to time, these feature traditional country events, one of such being the famous / infamous Terrier race.
This is a genuine race, except most of the time, the start very quickly turns into a pitched battle with half of them. These are country dogs, familar with killing things, but believe it or not, it's considered a fun event, - and in fairness no dogs really get hurt. There's no encouragement for them to fight at all, quite the reverse, but a few terriers just thrive on a scrap every now and again.
To cut a long story short, some of the fights threaten to get a bit serious, but the dogs get separated right away by the race marshalls with a discreet squirt of vinegar in the mouth of whichever dog won't let go of another. I've seen it done with a turkey baster, and also an oil can - a clean one of course filled with vinegar.
This definitely works with scrapping terriers and doesn't hurt them at all, but when the red mist descends with a pitbull, I believe it's a pretty thick red mist, and I don't know whether it would even notice to be honest. But it might be worth a try. If I was you, get to the hardware shop and buy a couple of oil cans, the type that squirt stuff, fill them with malt vinegar, and leave them somewhere handy where you can get to in a hurry. It's not expensive, and fingers crossed this will separate two fighting pitbulls, but I don't know, no guarantees...
For years here in Scotland, there have been local country fairs, and from time to time, these feature traditional country events, one of such being the famous / infamous Terrier race.
This is a genuine race, except most of the time, the start very quickly turns into a pitched battle with half of them. These are country dogs, familar with killing things, but believe it or not, it's considered a fun event, - and in fairness no dogs really get hurt. There's no encouragement for them to fight at all, quite the reverse, but a few terriers just thrive on a scrap every now and again.
To cut a long story short, some of the fights threaten to get a bit serious, but the dogs get separated right away by the race marshalls with a discreet squirt of vinegar in the mouth of whichever dog won't let go of another. I've seen it done with a turkey baster, and also an oil can - a clean one of course filled with vinegar.
This definitely works with scrapping terriers and doesn't hurt them at all, but when the red mist descends with a pitbull, I believe it's a pretty thick red mist, and I don't know whether it would even notice to be honest. But it might be worth a try. If I was you, get to the hardware shop and buy a couple of oil cans, the type that squirt stuff, fill them with malt vinegar, and leave them somewhere handy where you can get to in a hurry. It's not expensive, and fingers crossed this will separate two fighting pitbulls, but I don't know, no guarantees...
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
so there is a couple issues with squirting something at the dog to change the behavior.
First issue is it doesn't' take into account the underlying problem. Second is it uses something unpleasant to try and correct behavior. Dogs aren't dumb. they KNOW where the unpleasant is coming from. it's coming from you and there are significant down sides to your dog knowing this. like loosing your dog's trust, creating a hesitance to listen, creating fear of you, are just a couple that come to mind. Lastly it doesn't tell he dog what it is you DO want it to do.
In this particular case the underlying issue is two female dogs of the same breed, and about the same age, living together. it has been discussed here a lot, but it's not an area I have really dived into so I will let either Emma or Nettles if they have time go into more detail why it's a recipe for trouble. But basically this really isn't something you can just "train away". Apparently female dogs once they reach the point of actually fighting there is almost no going back. so in this case there is a bit more to it than just breaking up two random dogs having a dust up. In cases like this, if things are left unmanaged as Emma advises there is a real risk one dog will end up dead. In these kinds of fights, a squirt of vinegar isn't even going to be noticed.
In terms of a general training concept, unless your able to time that squirt precisely at that perfect window of time where the dog is actually doing what it is you don't want your dog to be doing and having that perfect timing down for however long it takes for your dog to associate doing X and only X = nasty squirt of vinegar so I won't do X again, you run a HUGE risk of squirting the vinegar one time when the dog is looking at a blade of grass, then another time maybe at you, another time at the sky, another time at the tree etc. you may think you think your telling your dog not to do X, but are you? And even if your able to always time the squirt precisely when your dog does X, that still doesn't address the question of what would you rather your dog be doing and the risk of damage you could be causing to your bond between dog and you.
Now you might argue that in teaching your dog what to do you risk clicking for the wrong thing too. this is true, but the "negative" side affects of clicking for the wrong thing are not nearly as devastating as punishing for the wrong thing. because when you click for the wrong thing what is the worst that happens? Your dog gets a "free" treat.
Generally speaking, training trumps tools (ie special no pull collars etc) and "squirts" of anything. Training is the closest thing to an actual 100% solution you can get, because training teaches what you should be doing and rewards that. Which makes the likelihood of what you want from your dog to happen far more often than what you don't want your dog doing. squirts of something unpleasant, beating, shock collars etc teach a dog to go into a state of avoidance to avoid having something unpleasant happen to them. if they cant' figure out what it is exactly they need to avoid doing, they sometimes go a general emotional shutdown to minimize the risk of something unpleasant happening.
First issue is it doesn't' take into account the underlying problem. Second is it uses something unpleasant to try and correct behavior. Dogs aren't dumb. they KNOW where the unpleasant is coming from. it's coming from you and there are significant down sides to your dog knowing this. like loosing your dog's trust, creating a hesitance to listen, creating fear of you, are just a couple that come to mind. Lastly it doesn't tell he dog what it is you DO want it to do.
In this particular case the underlying issue is two female dogs of the same breed, and about the same age, living together. it has been discussed here a lot, but it's not an area I have really dived into so I will let either Emma or Nettles if they have time go into more detail why it's a recipe for trouble. But basically this really isn't something you can just "train away". Apparently female dogs once they reach the point of actually fighting there is almost no going back. so in this case there is a bit more to it than just breaking up two random dogs having a dust up. In cases like this, if things are left unmanaged as Emma advises there is a real risk one dog will end up dead. In these kinds of fights, a squirt of vinegar isn't even going to be noticed.
In terms of a general training concept, unless your able to time that squirt precisely at that perfect window of time where the dog is actually doing what it is you don't want your dog to be doing and having that perfect timing down for however long it takes for your dog to associate doing X and only X = nasty squirt of vinegar so I won't do X again, you run a HUGE risk of squirting the vinegar one time when the dog is looking at a blade of grass, then another time maybe at you, another time at the sky, another time at the tree etc. you may think you think your telling your dog not to do X, but are you? And even if your able to always time the squirt precisely when your dog does X, that still doesn't address the question of what would you rather your dog be doing and the risk of damage you could be causing to your bond between dog and you.
Now you might argue that in teaching your dog what to do you risk clicking for the wrong thing too. this is true, but the "negative" side affects of clicking for the wrong thing are not nearly as devastating as punishing for the wrong thing. because when you click for the wrong thing what is the worst that happens? Your dog gets a "free" treat.
Generally speaking, training trumps tools (ie special no pull collars etc) and "squirts" of anything. Training is the closest thing to an actual 100% solution you can get, because training teaches what you should be doing and rewards that. Which makes the likelihood of what you want from your dog to happen far more often than what you don't want your dog doing. squirts of something unpleasant, beating, shock collars etc teach a dog to go into a state of avoidance to avoid having something unpleasant happen to them. if they cant' figure out what it is exactly they need to avoid doing, they sometimes go a general emotional shutdown to minimize the risk of something unpleasant happening.
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
Sorry Jacksdad, you're quite correct of course, but this isn't suggested as a training tool or aid, this is an emergency device to stop dogs fighting, - after you've already lost control. In fact, it's not even to stop the fighting, just have a dog release it's bite and hopefully not take another. The prime objective, indeed the only objective is stopping the one dog being seriously hurt. There is a victim in this scenario. Gypsie had attacked Bailie, wouldn't let go, and threw her about like a rag doll, and all when the dogs weren't under the principal owners supervision. Lynzi was in fear for Bailies life, and had no options open to her but to let the fight run its course.
I agree it does nothing whatsoever to address the cause of the fight, nor does it address a single one of the underlying issues behind the dogs behavior, nor indeed does it prepare the ground for any future resolution, but this a crisis situation. Not just a crisis where a dog might hurt itself, it's a crisis where one dog is out of control might hurt or kill another dog, or dare I say it, a child.
It isn't suggested as a solution or remedy to anything, but it may stop the fight. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear, and sorry too after making that clear if it still remains the wrong thing to say here.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not getting all uppity about it if I've said the wrong thing, absolutely not, but once the training strategy has failed to avoid this fight starting, what other emergency options are there? I don't want to put you on the spot, but what would you, or anybody else for that matter, have done in these same circumstances? You are entirely correct in what you say, 100%, because my so called emergency response would still require pre-planning and preparation, and perhaps training might have succeeded without the downside effects. Hmmmm.... Complicated.
I agree it does nothing whatsoever to address the cause of the fight, nor does it address a single one of the underlying issues behind the dogs behavior, nor indeed does it prepare the ground for any future resolution, but this a crisis situation. Not just a crisis where a dog might hurt itself, it's a crisis where one dog is out of control might hurt or kill another dog, or dare I say it, a child.
It isn't suggested as a solution or remedy to anything, but it may stop the fight. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear, and sorry too after making that clear if it still remains the wrong thing to say here.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not getting all uppity about it if I've said the wrong thing, absolutely not, but once the training strategy has failed to avoid this fight starting, what other emergency options are there? I don't want to put you on the spot, but what would you, or anybody else for that matter, have done in these same circumstances? You are entirely correct in what you say, 100%, because my so called emergency response would still require pre-planning and preparation, and perhaps training might have succeeded without the downside effects. Hmmmm.... Complicated.
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Dogwoodblossom
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:06 am
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
I work at a kennel and we have to break up fights occasionally. Obviously it's better to stop them before they start, but it does happen. We recently had two bull mastiffs get into it. Usually if shouting doesn't work we go for the water bowls or pitchers we have in the daycare areas and hope the shock of the water will get them to quit (at least long enough to pull them apart). But in this case the attacker would absolutely not let go even after we had emptied all the water in the place over their heads. What finally worked was when I grabbed a squirt bottle and aimed it straight up the attacker's nose. He had to let go to breath and we were able to get them seperated.
All the hitting described in the post was alarming to me. Once dogs get into a fight like the one described it's unlikely that they'll leave off each other to change targets but you can still get seriously injured completely accidentally. For as long as you have both of these dogs in the same house I'd keep buckets or pitchers of water on hand.
And I know it's hard to think once something like that starts. Try not to panic. Noise can work as a distraction too, though I dont' know how useful it would be with two pits. If the third dog is anywhere where he can get to them (during a hypothetical second fight) make sure someone restrains him. Because you definately don't want him leaping in to help.
All the hitting described in the post was alarming to me. Once dogs get into a fight like the one described it's unlikely that they'll leave off each other to change targets but you can still get seriously injured completely accidentally. For as long as you have both of these dogs in the same house I'd keep buckets or pitchers of water on hand.
And I know it's hard to think once something like that starts. Try not to panic. Noise can work as a distraction too, though I dont' know how useful it would be with two pits. If the third dog is anywhere where he can get to them (during a hypothetical second fight) make sure someone restrains him. Because you definately don't want him leaping in to help.
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
gotcha...no worries, thanks for the clarificationFlyby wrote: this isn't suggested as a training tool or aid, this is an emergency device to stop dogs fighting
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
If you do decide to keep both dogs I would strongly advise investing in a break stick. Specifically designed to help break up fights between pit bulls, not recommended for use with other breeds. I think everyone I know who owns multiple pit bulls has one. Obviously management so that it never happens is best but if it does happen you need to break it up. I had a staffie try to kill my dog and the only way I managed to get it off him was to twist its collar until it lost consciousness. Water didn't work, hitting it didn't work, kicking it didn't work, it didn't even seem to notice.
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
By a break stick, is that one of those sticks with a loop on the end? I'd agree.
I wouldn't recommend engaging in the fight any more than absolutely necessary, and hitting a dog or shouting can sometimes agitate their adrenalin even more. If he hears the shouting at all, it's just noise, and he won't know if its to cease fighting or cheering him on.
When I've seen these men separate fighting terriers, and ok, it is well practiced, it's a quick deft movement when the dog pauses just a second for a breath, blink and you'd miss it and the fight is finished. No fuss, no ceremony, no mess. I don't approve of fox hunting, (and please, let's not go there), but these dog handlers are often hunt masters or gamekeepers, and familiar with keeping the peace in big packs of dogs.
I know this is an old traditional country bumpkin method, steeped in 200 years of negative enforcement, the very antithesis of what positive reinforcement training is all about, but it's not the same thing as a citrus collar. Forgive me Thedarkrocker, these Pitbulls are powerful, dangerous animals bred to fight, and there's a very high probability they will fight again. If the dogs cannot be separated, then Thedarkrocker and/or his girlfiend/flatmate need contingencies and plan of what to do if they fight again and one or other dog gets killed.
Jacksdad is absolutely on the money in all of what he says, we just crossed wires a little I think. And of course, having these vinegar squirts to hand doesn't mean you have to use them. Thedarkrocker's situation is a long way from ideal, but without a reliable failsafe contingency, I suspect Gypsy may be living on borrowed time.
I wouldn't recommend engaging in the fight any more than absolutely necessary, and hitting a dog or shouting can sometimes agitate their adrenalin even more. If he hears the shouting at all, it's just noise, and he won't know if its to cease fighting or cheering him on.
When I've seen these men separate fighting terriers, and ok, it is well practiced, it's a quick deft movement when the dog pauses just a second for a breath, blink and you'd miss it and the fight is finished. No fuss, no ceremony, no mess. I don't approve of fox hunting, (and please, let's not go there), but these dog handlers are often hunt masters or gamekeepers, and familiar with keeping the peace in big packs of dogs.
I know this is an old traditional country bumpkin method, steeped in 200 years of negative enforcement, the very antithesis of what positive reinforcement training is all about, but it's not the same thing as a citrus collar. Forgive me Thedarkrocker, these Pitbulls are powerful, dangerous animals bred to fight, and there's a very high probability they will fight again. If the dogs cannot be separated, then Thedarkrocker and/or his girlfiend/flatmate need contingencies and plan of what to do if they fight again and one or other dog gets killed.
Jacksdad is absolutely on the money in all of what he says, we just crossed wires a little I think. And of course, having these vinegar squirts to hand doesn't mean you have to use them. Thedarkrocker's situation is a long way from ideal, but without a reliable failsafe contingency, I suspect Gypsy may be living on borrowed time.
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
Unfortunately, TheDarkRocker has not seen any of these replies as he hasn't been back on the forums since shortly after posting his dilemma in this thread. I do hope he makes his way back to read what Emmabeth especially had to say on this situation. It won't be easy to hear, I'm sure, but necessary. I fear for the life of poor Bailey.
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
Im really grateful for everyones replies on here. Its been very hard coming to a decision for my dog gypsy, but unfortunately i can no longer keep her in our home. She threatens the lives of our other 2 pits and possibly ours as well. I love her with all my heart, and it hurts me more than anything to have to give her up. Ive been doing as much research as i can to see if i am able to give her to a rehabilitation center for aggressive dogs, or a foster home, but as sad as it is, not many have responded to my phone calls, or emails. And the ones that have just dont have the room for her. I have learned many lessons with gypsy and i would be more than happy to pass one along. If you are adopting an older dog, make sure you know everything there is about the dogs past history. We learned that to fix an aggressive dogs problems, or any dog for that matter, you have to know where the root of the problem lies (what type of aggression, anxiety, etc.) Since i didnt get much information on her from the shelter, i have no idea what happened to her in her previous years. Therefore, we have no idea what exactly her issues are. She has made a HUGE impact on my life, and i will never forget her. Thank you again for the help .
Re: Pitbull attacked pitbull! Keep, rehome, euthanize?
Thoughts are with you Lynzi. Sometimes you just have to let go, even when it's the toughest thing in the world to do.
