Toilet Train an "Out Building" Dog

[leia_organa]

Hi,

This is my first post, so hello to everyone!

My problem (and I realise it's MY problem, not the dog's) is I'm making no progress, at all, in toilet training my puppy.

My 9 month old border collie pup lives in an outbuilding adjacent to the house, in a purpose built pen (his brother lives is in the next door pen). I live on a farm and have access to fields for exercising, so he gets plenty of running around, plus sheep to practise his skills on! Although he's an "out building" dog, I want to keep him clean; our other dogs seem to have pretty much toilet trained themselves and never mess in their pens. Unfortunately, my pup wees and poos in his pen, throughout the day and night.

His routine is as follows:

7.30 - run round for 45 mins
12.30 - run round for 30 to 40 mins. Feed dry kibble on return from exercise
15.30 - run round for 30 to 40 mins
20.00 - let out in building (because it's still dark at this time of year) for 45 to 60 mins (basically, until he's had a wee & poo)

He always wees and poos overnight, looks like he poos a couple of times. Usually, he will wee & poo outside each time I take him out for a run round. However, he also wees & poos in his pen in between times. Sometimes he won't poo outside at all for days on end and does everything in his pen. He even poos in his bed, contrary to what everyone says - that "dogs never mess their own sleeping area", well my dog does!

He's a lovely natured dog, no malice in him (unless you're a sheep!) and he seems very happy, playful, not stressed/fretful. He's got a good appetite and takes everything in his stride.

All the toilet training advice I've found online is purely for house dogs - i.e. "take him outside when he looks like he wants to go" or "put him in a crate overnight".

I want to spend time playing with my dog and training him to be a working sheepdog, but instead I'm spending all my time sweeping him out (I put sawdust on the floor to keep him dry, otherwise he sits in his own wee), then mopping his pen out with disinfectant and bio-washing powder to get rid of urine and poo smells. I mop his pen out every morning (as his pen will usually be soaking and poo all over) and scrub his bed as it will have poo stuck to it.

When I've approached other forums about toilet training a dog that doesn't live in the house, I've just had a lot of abuse from people (mainly Americans I'm afraid) who seem to think that I'm no better than Cruella de Vil for not keeping him in the house (where they think wild dogs live, I've no idea ). I actually think my pup has it pretty good - I mean, I know plenty of working people who leave their dog completely alone in the house all day, whereas mine gets to run around outside throughout the day, has another dog for company all the time and even gets sheep to play with!

[Owdb1tch]

I don't have a problem with outdoor dogs and yours sounds as if he has a good regime in terms of attention - more, as you say, than many house dogs.

Is the 1200 feed his only one?

Some dogs are much dirtier than others, some pee and poo in their own quarters because it makes the place smell more like home to them, and one of the terriers I have now was a devil for messing her own bed until nearly a year old.

He does seem to be pooing a lot for one feed. Some dried foods contain so much that is indigestible that they cause a lot more poo. Dried feed also makes a dog drink a lot more, so more pee. He might have a sensitive stomach, more so than the others. How about changing to petmince and vegetables for a short while, see if that helps?

[leia_organa]

I now only feed him once a day. I used to feed him 3 times, then dropped it down to 2 as he stopped eating all the food.

He was happy enough eating the 2 meals - I just thought that maybe part of the reason he seemed to be constantly pooing was because, with 2 smaller meals a day, he always had food in his system. Hasn't made any difference though.

I used to feed him last thing at night (simply because that's when all the other farm dogs are fed). Then I thought, maybe that's why he poos a lot overnight (because he's processing his food overnight), so I moved his feed time to lunch. This hasn't made any difference either!

The food he is currently on is Wagg Worker, which he seems to really like. Previously he was on a local feed merchant's brand of chicken & rice puppy kibble.

It does seem as though more comes out than I'm putting in the front end, and some days, I wonder where it's all coming from! Maybe a different food will help; I think I'll give your suggestion a try. Not sure what you mean by "petmince" - could you elaborate for me?

I stopped cleaning his pen out quite so thoroughly and didn't use the sawdust for a couple of weeks - thinking that maybe he was over compensating for me getting rid of his "smell" by weeing all the more. Didn't help though, I just got large puddles of wee with nothing to soak them up. Made cleaning up even harder, so I went back to putting the sawdust down.

Thanks ever so much for responding to my post - I've tried everything I can think of, and I just can't seem to work out what I'm doing wrong.

[Mattie]

Wagg dog foods does produce a lot of poo from dogs, I used to feed it to mine many years ago. When I changed them to a different kibble, with no additives and a lot less cereal, I was getting about a third of the poo.

[emmabeth]

Ok. turn it on its head sort of... (the problem, not the dog)..

What is the benefit to him, of going outside?

Currently... nothing. He doesnt mind sleeping near or in his own mess, so theres no benefit to him changing that.

I would clicker train him to go in a certain area (or if thats hard, on a certain type of surface, perhaps grass?). Have a read of the clicker thread pinned in this section.

Then, he will know that this is a way of earning a treat from you - thats pleasurable for him, so he will want to do that... and to do that he must hang on to himself until you are there.

To start off you will have to go and let him out more frequently to catch him going outside, you may need to trick him by letting him back into his pen.... then taking him out almost immediately (especially if he has decided that this is where he wants to go).

Hope that helps,

Em

[leia_organa]

Thanks for the advice!

Rap (my pup) has a ball with a bell in it that he loves to chase, so when he poos outside, I chuck the ball for him and we'll play with that for a while. I always give him lots of "over the top" praise when he does it outside, and just ignore his "mistakes" in the pen and clean them up without making a fuss in front of him or telling him off (he's probably pooed hours before I get to it, so there isn't any point me telling him off).

I am wondering about the food though (sod's law I've just bought another bag of Wagg!). I'm wondering whether it isn't ideal for his stomach, and also interesting is that his brother is a habitual poo eater - which I understand can also indicate that they aren't digesting their food completely. His brother, Toby, is my sister's dog and we're going to go to our local pet shop together and see what else we can get. I'm thinking something more like his old puppy food - chicken & rice.

Does anyone have an opinion on dried food versus wet/tinned foods? I just assumed that meaty food would lead to sloppy mess but maybe it's easier to digest?

Thanks for all the great advice.

[Mattie]

The food I feed mine is lamb and rice and suits all of them. To keep their weight at a decent level I don't need to feed a lot so I soak it for a few hours so it swells up to 4 times its size, this kids the dogs into thinking they are getting a lot more than they are By soaking it they are also getting plenty of water which can be a problem when feeding dry food. Merlin rarely drinks even when he was fed the food dry and is a lot better since I started to soak it.

I always go for the food that has the smallest amount of ingredients and additives, dogs are like children, many react to aditives by becoming hyper active and in other ways.

Burgess Sensitive is about £20 for 15kilos on Pets at Home and their other feeds are cheeper so not too expensive. Mine won't eat Burns for some reason.

[leia_organa]

Thanks, I'm going to try him on a different food and see how that helps. I'm lucky in that I've got a great local pet shop just down the road that supply an amazing variety of different dog foods, so I'm sure they'll have something to suit.

I now give Rap water on his food (been doing this for about 2 weeks) as it seems to make him eat it up there and then. Before, he used to leave the dry kibble in his dish all day and just pick at it.

I'll probably get a small bag of something for him to try and introduce it to him over a few days, mixed in with his current food, so it doesn't upset his stomach. Hopefully, a change of diet will help.

Does anyone have an opinion on how many times a day I should let him outside to wee/poo? I've seen advice online where people suggest taking them out every hour or two, so that they don't get the opportunity to have an accident. That's a bit impractical and not really sustainable in the long term, but I could give it ago over the next couple of weeks as I'm on holiday at the moment. Other people seem to think that taking a dog out this often teaches them that they don't need to "hold it". Any thoughts?

[Owdb1tch]

While you are trying different foods, by 'petmince' I meant the blocks of frozen meat you can get in the freezer section of your petfood shop.

ATM I'd take him out every couple of hours. Dogs IME aren't smart enough to think about holding on or not. If it's uncomfortable, they 'go'. So do we!

Interesting that his brother eats poo. Maybe he isn't so clean in the kennel as he appears - he's eating the evidence - but it certainly illustrates that the food isn't doing its job.

Trickle-feeding, as you have found, leads to trickle-pooing! Try leaving dish in for 20 minutes or so and then removing until the next meal.

[leia_organa]

I didn't know pet food shops had freezer sections !

Now that I'm adding water to his food, he's got it eaten up in 10 minutes flat, so I take the bowl away when he's finished.

His brother does seem to be waiting until he goes outside to poo and wee, as his pen is never wet and he seems pretty desperate when he comes out! He also does enough for a baby elephant, so I think we're just lucky that he keeps himself clean.

[leia_organa]

I put him back on his old puppy food - Purina Beta Puppy (chicken & rice). There's a noticeable difference in what his poo looks like but he still chooses to do it in his pen, rather than (or as well as) outside.

E.g. a couple of days ago he was outside for an hour at lunchtime, I waited and waited for him to poo until I was absolutely frozen to the spot (it was snowing), gave up, took him back in and fed him. Went back outside 10 minutes later to retrieve his bowl to find he'd pooed and wee'd in that short space of time.

I simply can't win, I take him out at regular intervals and he's had the same pattern for months. I've tried not playing with him until he's pooed (hoping he'll catch on and want to go as soon as he comes out) but he just doesn't do it at all, so I've tried playing ball with him a bit to get his bowels moving but then all he wants to do is play and not get on with his business. Sometimes he does the tiniest bit outside but he still does the remainder inside later.

I'm about ready to give up actually. I mean, if you want to train them to sit, you can MAKE them sit down - I can't make him go to the loo! If he won't go, he won't go and that's that. Nothing I can do about it - I can't stand outside for hours until he does it.

[Owdb1tch]

Don't stand around - stick a lead on him and walk him. Walking gets everything going.

He may be afraid to 'go' outside in the immediate vicinity of all those other odgs because peeing and pooing is more to dogs than it is to us. It says "Hey, this is me, smell all about me" and tells other dogs he is on their patch. He may not want to do this.

[shauna250568]

E.g. a couple of days ago he was outside for an hour at lunchtime, I waited and waited for him to poo until I was absolutely frozen to the spot (it was snowing), gave up, took him back in and fed him. Went back outside 10 minutes later to retrieve his bowl to find he'd pooed and wee'd in that short space of time.

Try taking him outside after you have fed him. My boys (not by any means perfectly house trained yet) they usually go after eating. Sometime they have to go during their firts meal of the day, we had a couple of accidents with this at first. Suddenly they would stop eating and start walking around and then poop! Now if they stop eating in the middle of the food or as soon as they have finished we take them to the toilet place. This seems to be quite successful.

One thing we have discovered is that they are all different and respond to different things in different ways. Don't despair you will find what works for you eventually.

[leia_organa]

Thanks to everyone, you've all given me the support I needed to keep trying!

He is a bit better since I put him back onto Purina Puppy (chicken & rice). He certainly does less poo and less often. He still does it overnight but most times, I can get him to do it outside during the day, so long as I go out to him every 2 hours.

I'll keep going and hope that as he gets older his toilet habits settle down.