Free shaping and the less confident dog

Share your favorite training tips, ideas and methods with other Positively members!

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

Post Reply
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by JudyN »

I've been doing some free shaping with Jasper, including '101 uses for a box'. I'm wondering, though, if it's quite right for him as he keeps looking to me for direction and getting anxious when he doesn't get any. I'm not sure if the anxiety is because he really wants direction, or because he really wants the treat and doesn't know what to do to get it - he's such a foodie :lol:

Being a typical deerhound x lurcher he doesn't offer a lot of spontaneous behaviour around the house apart from spontaneous sleeping, and recall when he hears the fridge door :roll: So I'll plonk a box in front of him, and look meaningfully at it... We've got to the stage where he will repeatedly nudge it with his nose to get a treat, though he still looks a bit worried as if he's thinking 'This can't be right,' but if I then don't click because I want to move on, he'll stare at me (knowing eye contact often gets a reward), gives me a questioning bark, and then lie down, looking rather disconsolate. Sometimes he'll throw in some other command he knows - typically 'shy boy' (covers face with paw), though I only recently taught him this and he doesn't reliably do it on command yet.

I also free shaped him to stand on a carpet tile, and now get him to move from tile to tile on the command 'mat' (sometimes with a treat on the floor in between which he is told to leave). But I found I was introducing words and prompts (e.g. pointing at the mat I wanted him to move to) quite early on, and wondered if I was going too fast.

I would like to build his confidence, but with a dog who likes direction and worries when he doesn't know what is expected of him, can free shaping be a bad idea? Will he be happier with more conventional training? Or am I just going too fast for him, and not rewarding enough behaviours?
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Sarah83
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:49 pm
Location: Bad Fallingbostel, Germany
Contact:

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by Sarah83 »

Rupert was the same way at first. I stopped setting up anything for him to interact with and just clicked and treated for literally anything he did that wasn't "bad" behaviour. I also didn't make a big show of watching him, I sat there pretending to read a book and just watched out of the corner of my eye and clicking and tossing treats to him whenever he did anything. Turns of the head, moving a paw, licking his lips, yawning, anything like that I clicked and rewarded. It took a while but the lightbulb finally went on that it was his behaviour that caused the click. We've not looked back since.
ladybug1802
Posts: 1991
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by ladybug1802 »

I hope this doesnt sound too stupid, but what exactly is the aim of freeshaping? Is it a pre-curser to starting clicker training, to get the dog to associate the fact that somethingb they do gets a treat?
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by JudyN »

Thanks Sarah :D

Where do you end up, then? Has Rupert developed any complex patterns, or does he still just lick his lips, move his head, etc.? What do you do if Rupert licks his lips again, and again, and again, and nothing develops....? What does Rupert actually get out of this in the long term? And although you don't make it obvious you have the clicker and treats, once you start, does he understand that he is now having a 'session' and that after a while he will stop getting treats for doing whatever he chooses to do? Also, how long was/is each session, and how many times a day?
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by Nettle »

Having had a fair bit to do with lurchers and especially the deerhoundy kind, it's my thinking that they don't see the point. They are not generally task-oriented and reward is not the be-all and end-all of their existence. I think he is humouring you because he likes you, while hoping you will eventually stop fiddling about and either leave him to dream or do something that actually lights his fire :wink: .
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by JudyN »

That all makes sense, Nettle, apart from this bit...
Nettle wrote:reward is not the be-all and end-all of their existence
If reward = food, then this is pretty much the be-all and end-all for him! The only thing he'd prefer would be fields going off to the horizon with a group of deer just within sight. And maybe a few rabbits for variety :wink:

I do agree though, he gives the impression that he thinks sticking his paw over his face is a pretty daft thing for me to want him to do, but hey, if it gets him a treat....

ETA: Nettle, your profile of your deerhound lurchers also fits Jasper's reaction to Ruth Ottinson interactive toys. He twigs how to do them very quickly, he's very motivated to do them... but really, I think he's wondering why I have to make the treats so hard to get at when I could just put them in a bowl....
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by emmabeth »

SNORT...

My Deerhound just goes to sleep. Her thought pattern is VERY clearly thus:

'Ok the click sound means I get a treat. Yes. But, you have the treats right there. Can't I just have them, I can reach them look. Well you could just GIVE them to me, that would be much easier? No?... But I did that once already.... Oh I'm going to sleep. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ'.

She does understand what the click means, she does like food rewards a LOT, what is missing is that she doesn't seem to derive any real enjoyment from figuring out what is right and doing it to earn a reward. She would enjoy the reward, oh yes, but the 'ooh i got that right, yay me' part, it just isnt there.

Since she is happy enough to do all I ask of her, we don't do much clicker work.

We do do the nina ottosen toys, but again after a fairly short period she thinks it would be much funner to eat food from a bowl or my plate than from a toy, and goes to sleep (this is the deerhound default setting, snooze!).
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Sarah83
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:49 pm
Location: Bad Fallingbostel, Germany
Contact:

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by Sarah83 »

Lol, she sounds like and yet opposite Rupert in a way Emmabeth. He won't work for his food and if it's not forthcoming quickly will walk off and go to sleep. With clicker training he seems to work for the "yay, I got it right!" and doesn't really bother about the treat. Getting things right is so important to Rupe, even now he'll shut down if he thinks he got something wrong.

Judy, not quite sure what you mean by complex patterns. He's been clicker trained to close doors, fetch shoes, sit, touch objects with his nose, sit up and beg, lie down, bow, give paw, push through a mosquito net to get outdoors, do send aways, stay for a reasonable length of time, walk backwards, get in a box, to play, to not be frightened of everything and quite a few other things. If I put an object in front of him he immediately starts interacting with it to figure out what will get him his reward, he'll offer all sorts of behaviour from yawning at it to lying on it to swiping it and sending it flying across the room. I mostly shape or free shape, sometimes I capture a behaviour and very rarely I lure one.

I finish training sessions with "all done". Yes, he'd carry on at first but he quickly learned that all done along with me putting clicker and treats away meant the fun was over. In the beginning he didn't have obvious sessions, they put WAY too much pressure on him and he shut down. I just sat down with a book now and then for a minute or two and clicked anything I could. Because I wasn't waiting for anything in particular to reward but clicking everything we never got stuck in the lick lips, click, treat, lick lips etc cycle. One second I'd click an ear movement, the next a paw movement, then maybe a lip licking, then posssibly another ear movement, then a step forward and so on. Really, really rapid rate of clicking and treating. I don't see that everything has to be taught in sessions, Rupe learned to lie down on command simply through me luring him into one before I'd put his leash on, put his dinner down, open the back door for him, throw his toy etc.

I won't argue with Emmabeth and Nettle, some dogs just don't see the point but that goes for training in general. A border collie may be happy to repeat a single command seventy billion times in a row, a lurcher probably won't be.
Sarah83
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:49 pm
Location: Bad Fallingbostel, Germany
Contact:

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by Sarah83 »

ladybug1802 wrote:I hope this doesnt sound too stupid, but what exactly is the aim of freeshaping? Is it a pre-curser to starting clicker training, to get the dog to associate the fact that somethingb they do gets a treat?
With shaping you go into the session with a goal and work towards that. With free shaping you go into the session with no goal and work with and build on whatever the dog offers and see where you end up. That's what I was taught anyway.
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: Free shaping and the less confident dog

Post by Nettle »

You were right to pick me up on the 'reward' comment :lol: I should have qualified it as rewards we give them for doing things that seem pointless to them.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Post Reply