New dog bullying existing dog

[missyfit13]

Hi,

I lost my australian shephard in May and my maltese poodle (14) seemed to miss him, along with us. We have always had two or more dogs. I just adopted 2 mini aussies from a breeder that wanted to give them a forever home. The female is 5, and spayed. The male is 4 and not neutered, but will be soon. The male and my maltese seem to get along fine. They have no issues. The female, however seems to be bullying the maltese. He has attempted to play with them, and she snaps and snarls at him and he backs off. It's kind of sad, because he seems to enjoy having new dogs in the house. He was always dominant with the big aussie, but never really fought with him, just kind of bossed him around. I have not seen him try to boss either of the dogs. He is very old and has a collapsed trachea, so he cannot run as much as them, but he seems to be getting new life.

How should I handle this? I have only had the two new dogs for 5 days. They are allowed in the house, and have dog doors that they use. I have 1 acre for them to run, and soon, I will try to walk them. I don't want to take them out too soon. Also, I have used harnesses on my two dogs for years because of breathing issues on my big aussie and a collapsed trachea on the maltese. I also seem to be able to control the dogs better on halters. Is this acceptable? I have had so many people say I should use collars for walking, but they don't seem to work well.

thanks, and let me know if you need more information.

Patricia in California

[Sarah83]

Harnesses are fine for walking dogs in. Probably a hell of a lot better than a collar if you've got a dog who pulls. A halter you have to be more careful with as it can damage the neck if they tend to lunge forwards. They should be used with 2 leashes or a double ended leash. 1 clipped to the halter and a shorter one clipped to the collar. If the dog does pull the pressure should be taken on the collar and the headcollar only used to guide them. I prefer a harness myself but find I have less control than I do on a halter so I sometimes use a harness, sometimes a halter, depends on the situation.

Is the female only snapping at your maltese when he tries to play with her? Or is she going after him for no apparent reason? Is she used to other dogs? Dogs that aren't Aussies?

[missyfit13]

She only snapped at him when he tried to join in play. But she also gave a bit of attitude to him when he tried to enter a room and she was standing in the doorway. I reprimanded her each time she did it. It has only happened about 3 times, but I want to stop it now before she gets in the habit.

What is the difference between a halter and a harness? I have a collar on them with their id tag. The harness is a step in with the two front feet and it buckles over the back. I call it a harness. I put the leash on the harness and the collar is just there for ID purposes and to carry their rabies tag.

I took them for a walk tonight for just about a block or so. Just enough to have them get started. They were a bit nervous, but more curious. The male was a little intimidated. They walked well and I did not let them run ahead. I kept them beside me. My granddaughter walked the maltese.

Other dogs - she was mainly around mini aussies. However, they had a bloodhound, and family that lived next door and across the street from them had labs and other large dogs. I forgot to mention she got after my granddaughters dog, a sheltie, that does not have a mean bone in her body. Same thing - she is very old and she tried to engage my female in play. My female kept moving away from her, then turned finally, and snarled and snapped. The poor old sheltie didn't understand. She is so gentle, but she barks constantly outside when she wants to play and that may have been part of it. She comes over every day and they are fine, but she won't try to engage play anymore.

[missyfit13]

Sarah,

I just reread my first post and realized I used both halter and harness in my post. I don't know what a halter is. I just use harnesses that I described in my second post. Sorry for the confusion. My bad!

Patricia

[emmabeth]

Ok, if she doesn't want to play, then she doesn't want to and you really can't make her want to, or 'like' being harrassed to do so by other dogs.

Instead of telling her off, distract her and call her to you for some fuss and to do something else - if you tell her off for telling the other dogs to get lost, she will NOT learn to like it, but will learn to react more forcefully in future (ie, stop the warning signs and go straight for being REALLY horrid).

Ideally you need to stop other dogs from pestering her before she feels the need to warn them off and snap at them.

[missyfit13]

Emmabeth,
Thanks for the post. I was just finding another post called "introducing the new dog to the existing dog" and wrote a long post there, only to find out you had replied to my post. I did a much better job of explaining it so I have copied and pasted it here. Hopefully it will be a bit clearer than my original. The 14 yr old was not pestering the female, just trying to join in play that the other two were having. He put his paw on the female and she got after him. He backed off. So, without further ado, here is my further explanation. Let me know if you have advice for me.

"Wow, good posts! I have one posted but haven't had any replies and since my situation is very similar, I will try here. I have a 14 yr old maltese poodle that lost his buddy in May (male aussie with a brain tumor). The maltese was more dominant, but never agressive, just bossed the big one around. We just adopted two mini aussies, 4 and 5 yrs old. The 4 yr old is a male not neutered, but soon to be, and the female has had 3 litters and has been spayed.

Those two get along well, and amazingly, the unneutered male seems to get along with the 14 yr old maltese quite well, although doesn't really play with him. The female, however, is not liking the 14 yr old maltese. He sometimes growls at her, but she has gotten after him at least 5 times now and we have only had them 7 days. She hasn't hurt him, and he goes back at her sometimes, other times he backs off. I have intervened each time. The 14 year old has tried to enter into play, but the female gets after him. The little male just moves away from the scuffle.

Once, I'm ashamed to say, I popped her on the head. It was because they were both on my lap and the maltese tried to turn around and she went after him. It startled me so, I yelled and popped her head and she jumped down and cowered. I felt so bad. I'm trying so hard to do positive reinforcement. The other times I have told her NO, then taken her collar and moved her away and told her NO again. I don't know if that is the right thing to do. I've walked them twice together and they seem to do okay together but are not friendly, except they will both sniff the same thing and not bother each other. It's hard to walk three at once, so I walked the two new dogs together after walking the female and the 14 yr old. That was okay, but the little male cries and barks and throws a fit when the female is taken away out of the house without him. They are not littermates, but the female has been around since he was born.

I also have done the TREAT thing. I line up all three, making sure the female and the 14 yr old are not next to each other. Then I give a treat to each one (turkey dogs cut up) and say their name. They do well, sometimes trying to take the treat out of my hand when it goes to another dog. At that time I just push their nose softly away and say the dog's name that is to get the treat. I continue to do this and hopefully it will help

I want to solve this issue and I know it will take time, but the longer the female is in the house it seems to be getting more frequent. I think the problem is jealousy over me. This morning when I put the harness on the female, she sat quietly. Then I put the leash on the 14 yr old and and he gets a little playful when I do that. She didn't like it and went for him. I stopped her and told her NO and made her sit.

I try to pet all three when I pet one, and give praise equally.

If I could get some advice here and tell me if I am approaching this right or not, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Patricia from California

[emmabeth]

What I said still applies - I don't think this is 'jealousy' or even that one dog is guarding you as a resource, from the other.

Why should she let him play? She doesn't know him particularly and some of his approaches are probably rude (paw on her shoulder is RUDE, between dogs who do not know one another it'd be like a guy you met yesterday grabbing your ***!) not because he is bad, but because he doesn't know any other way to play.

Imagine you met someone 7 days ago and you didn't really like them or feel comfy around them - and then they started to get in your personal space between you and your friend and touch you and not listen to you when you said 'back off' - I bet you would get pretty snarky! Even though he just wants to play, he is going about it in the wrong manner and taking liberties she doesnt like.

In addition to this, dog play is 'practice' behaviour for other stuff, the rules that develop between dogs who know one another well can be very very personal. Some of my dogs can play quite 'rudely' together - Errol and Kelda have grown up together and though Kelda is 31" and Errol is just 15", they can and do play games like 'fit my head in your mouth' and 'bite each others legs' and 'chase each other going rarr rarr rarr' - if Errol attempts to do that to Ellie though oooooooooooooooooooh hes going to get told off!

But then, Ellie has never lived with another dog till she came here aged 6, she played regularly with just ONE dog (who in fact, she bullied horribly), she has only known Errol a year and she plain does NOT like the way HE plays so she won't play with him.

And really... why should she! Just because they are both dogs, why should they like, love or want to hurtle about with one another. Do you want to get close, personal, intimate and competitive with EVERY other human on the planet, just because they are a human, or live near you?

It is perfectly normal and pretty usual, when a female dog moves into a house with just male dogs, she WILL become the boss in many situations and she won't want to whizz about. THere are exceptions to this rule, there always are but you need to be prepared for her NOT to want to buddy up with him immediately, or ever. Tolerating and getting along is enough, best friends forever is not necessary.

So - don't tell her off for telling him to back off - distract her AND him so that she doesnt have to and if you miss it, just distract her away and change the subject. If you do continue to tell her off it WILL get worse and she will start to lose trust in you because to her, what she is doing is perfectly reasonable. She has no idea it upsets you because he was there first and obviously you have much more of a bond with him.

If you DO get to a point where she guards you thenw e can help you deal with that but tipping her off your lap, smacking her etc will in all probability make things WORSE and believe me small though these dogs may be you do not want real fights.

[missyfit13]

Thanks, Emmabeth. I will work on that. I can understand what you are saying about the playing and will watch him.

Do you feel she was in the right in attacking him because he was trying to turn around on the chair? She was on my lap and just went at him. When I was putting on his harness, he was playing with me. She just came across in front of me and got him. In the bedroom, he came up to me for a pet and I was petting her and she nailed him, grabbing him by the neck on top. I did not do anything to her, just pulled her away and told her NO. Then put her in Sit.

I know that "in the right" is a human thing, but I don't want to make him feel he is being bad when she seems to be the instigator the other times.

Thanks again,

Patricia

[emmabeth]

Now that DOES sound to me like she is guarding you as you are a valuable resource to her (kinda like guarding a bone or food) - so no shes not 'right'.. but on the other hand, you can't punish her for it because she will then learn 'when HE is by my new Mom, I get yelled at', she wont associate it with HER behaviour because shes focussed on HIM, not what she is doing herself!

So as much as you can, set things up so she doesnt get the chance to do that - and also set up situations where you have her really busy doing stuff and being rewarded when he is nearby, so the message THEN is 'when HE is near my new Mom... i get loads of treats and its all good!'.

Careful management is needed and in future she may unwind a little - doubt she will ever want to play with him but you never know!

[missyfit13]

Emmabeth,

Thanks so much. I feel a little better that I may be reading what is happening. Just to let you know they have been very polite to each other all evening. I took all three for an evening walk and they did fine. Ella, the female walks beautifully, and my old dog did so well. He walks on the right and she on the left. The little male is a bit afraid and wanders back and forth, but no fights and they got along well. I will not hope for a loving relationship, but if they can be civil to each other, I will be happy. I will keep working on it and I promise I will not pop her head again. It was really just a tap, but I felt so bad as that is not my behavior. It just scared me having a dog fight on my lap. My poor old skin does not take too much.

Thanks so much and I will post my progress.

Patricia from California

P.S. I thought to buy Victoria's book. Does it cover some of this stuff, anyone know.......

[Nettle]

If the female has had 3 litters, she may have been force-mated or she may only have encountered male dogs in a stud situation. If she has only recently been spayed, her hormones will be all over the place and will take a while to settle down, which also makes them antsy. If the spaying was some time ago, of course this last does not apply.

[missyfit13]

She was only spayed about 5 or 6 weeks ago. So that would certainly apply. As far as force mated, I don't know. I would assume this would be true if they only wanted her to breed with a specific dog, which was the case.

They have gotten along fine today. We walked again last night, then this morning, each time going a bit further. Ella, the female is a wonderful walker and my old dog is also. They get along fine on the walk, and outside, walking along together, or curling up on the lawn watching me work in the garden. The old dog growled at her this morning when she tried to interrupt his treat having already eaten her own. She moved off.

She raised her lip at him a bit when I was putting on the harnesses, but I just said to both of them, "be nice" in a calm voice and patted her head, and she stopped.

How am I doing?

[missyfit13]

I just read up on force mating. I don't think so, but possibly. Anyway, I got too cocky and spoke too soon. My husband just came home and sat down. The female went up to him to be petted, then the old one walked up for his pet. I sensed it was going to happen, but I was across the room. She tried to bite the old dog, and my husband's hand was in the way. She didn't break skin, but he was mad.

I've got to give this time, but it is frustrating. Also, husband is old school and doesn't always agree with modern methods. We will keep trying.

[missyfit13]

I was thinking about the situation. She is around her buddy that we adopted along with her, all the time. They play together. He is not neutered, but soon will be. So I don't know if it is a "male" situation. She also got after my granddaughters dog, who is a female, old, and very friendly.

Ella, the female, also does something strange. She did it a lot the first three days, but has not been doing it as much lately. When they go out in the yard and the little male she is friends with, raises his leg to mark, she goes after him, raises her entire butt off the ground, standing on her two front feet and marks the same area. Then she scratches the ground, just like a male dog. They never fight but this was frequent the first three days, then slowed down. I saw her do it once today in the yard, and she tried to do it on the walk, but I stopped her because she was peeing on him. She has peed on him twice doing that.

Anyone know what that is about?

[Nettle]

The female scent-marking is normal. She is simply adding her scent to his, to say that she lives here also.