My 13 week puppy has been doing really well with training for the past several weeks. He learned sit, down, stay, paw, nose, come, and sort of stand (but not really). But for some reason, he is becoming more and more unresponsive to the commands and to training in general. When I try to start a training session with him, he some times looks at me and just walks right past. Other times, he'll start by doing some commands, but 2 or 3 commands in, when I say "down", he barks one bark at me and walks away. Does anyone have any idea why he might have started doing that? I keep the sessions short and spread out the day, and these are commands that he has done before, so I don't think it's boredom or frustration.
A related problem is for some commands like down and stand, when he is moving forward, he uses the momentum to try and grab treats out of my hand. Other times, after he sits and gets a treat, he gets up and walks around me to my back where I'm holding the treat bag. Is there some way to restart the training in order to remove the food dependence he's developing?
UPDATE:
Ahhh, I just watched KikoPup's yotube video, and apparently I've been training Marcus all wrong! I didn't remove the lure so he's been begging, I suppose, and I didn't release him after each sit or down or whatever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NHqAW66-gE
Is there someway I can re-teach him?? I just tried to do it KikoPup's way, but Marcus looses interest after like 3 tries.
Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
the kikopup channel is a great resource. glad you found it.
change the word. if you goofed and messed up the word sit for sit. think of another word that is easy for you to remember = sit and use that. to your dog it will be like learning sit for the first time.
couple things to keep in mind. 13 week puppy have 13 week puppy attentions. so one or two times performing a sit is enough end it there on a win and give him a break for a little while then try something else. you might be asking for too much for his age.
Also, some dogs due to breed traits, or intelligence or personality or a combination lose interest quickly when there is no real reason to do something other than for the sake of doing it. example. if your dog knows sit, as in you say sit and his little butt hits the ground, your dog knows sit. not a lot of reason to do it over, and over, and over, and over in it's most basic form. time to mix it up, increase difficultly etc.
change the word. if you goofed and messed up the word sit for sit. think of another word that is easy for you to remember = sit and use that. to your dog it will be like learning sit for the first time.
couple things to keep in mind. 13 week puppy have 13 week puppy attentions. so one or two times performing a sit is enough end it there on a win and give him a break for a little while then try something else. you might be asking for too much for his age.
Also, some dogs due to breed traits, or intelligence or personality or a combination lose interest quickly when there is no real reason to do something other than for the sake of doing it. example. if your dog knows sit, as in you say sit and his little butt hits the ground, your dog knows sit. not a lot of reason to do it over, and over, and over, and over in it's most basic form. time to mix it up, increase difficultly etc.
Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
I think you are right, hes too focussed on the treat and not on what you are saying, then when it becomes too 'hard' (ie, you arent handing out sweeties for nothing) he wanders off.
Firstly, HOW important to him are the treats - has he got a full tummy most of the time? If so, cut down on the food he gets in a bowl, make his meals come from Kong toys or similar and the rest comes from training.
Next, put the treats where he can't reach them - this is why i like clicker training because it is easier to have them focussing on you and earning the click, it puts that little extra step between them and the food reward.
Just aim for ONE response, then quit. Leave him wanting more, you want his face to say 'hey, hey wait. HEY BUDDY.... WHA??' and not 'jeeeeez already, so SO bored'.
I would definitely, condition him to the clicker and then play the 101 things to do with a box game (stick that into youtube theres some great videos on there) because offering you behaviours may well seem to HIM like a super easy way to turn you into his personal treat dispenser, and that will make him keener to work for you!
Firstly, HOW important to him are the treats - has he got a full tummy most of the time? If so, cut down on the food he gets in a bowl, make his meals come from Kong toys or similar and the rest comes from training.
Next, put the treats where he can't reach them - this is why i like clicker training because it is easier to have them focussing on you and earning the click, it puts that little extra step between them and the food reward.
Just aim for ONE response, then quit. Leave him wanting more, you want his face to say 'hey, hey wait. HEY BUDDY.... WHA??' and not 'jeeeeez already, so SO bored'.
I would definitely, condition him to the clicker and then play the 101 things to do with a box game (stick that into youtube theres some great videos on there) because offering you behaviours may well seem to HIM like a super easy way to turn you into his personal treat dispenser, and that will make him keener to work for you!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
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iheartmarcus
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Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Thank you both for the great advice! And you are both definitely right about the attention and treat problem. I think I was just confused before because he was willing to work forever, and I was confused why his attention disappeared down to pretty much 30 seconds. Now I got the answer, it's because he's been staring at the treat the whole time. So now I make him give me eye contact instead, he looses interest real fast. I think that's also why he's been barking. In one video, Kikopup said if you don't ask for eye contact and the dog just stares at the treat and gets the treat, then you're reinforcing begging, and he'll get frustrated when he stops getting treats. This change in Marcus did come about when I started trying to phase out the treats, soooooo, oops on my part!
Emmabeth, now that you mention it, I am curious about clicker training. I almost got a clicker a few weeks ago, but the person at the pet store said he doesn't like it, then the trainer for my puppy class said she doesn't like it, and there's a whole bunch of people for both sides on the issue, so I cannot make up my mind. Would you recommend a first-time dog owner to use it? I worry about using it incorrectly and conditioning alllll the wrong behaviors, haha. And is it possible to use it some times and not use it other times (like when training different behaviors) and the dog wouldn't be confused?
Emmabeth, now that you mention it, I am curious about clicker training. I almost got a clicker a few weeks ago, but the person at the pet store said he doesn't like it, then the trainer for my puppy class said she doesn't like it, and there's a whole bunch of people for both sides on the issue, so I cannot make up my mind. Would you recommend a first-time dog owner to use it? I worry about using it incorrectly and conditioning alllll the wrong behaviors, haha. And is it possible to use it some times and not use it other times (like when training different behaviors) and the dog wouldn't be confused?
Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
I'd highly recommend clicker training both for first time owners and people who've owned dogs for years. While I'm sure it doesn't suit everybody I find it a much clearer (to the dog) and easier way to train than any other I've tried. Did your trainer say WHY they don't like it? Most of the people I've run into who don't like it don't actually understand the way it works properly.
As for using it incorrectly, as long as a reward ALWAYS follows the click (even if you accidentally click you MUST follow it with a reward) then it's very hard to go wrong. Yes, you'll click at the wrong time sometimes but it's not the end of the world. Timing is important but we've all screwed up on it at times and timing is important in ANY training anyway. And don't fall into the trap of using it for recall because your dog comes running when he hears it. Basically what the clicker does is mark the behaviour the dog is doing at that very instant. You can do the same thing with your voice but the click is always the same sound and isn't affected by emotion like your voice is. And with how much most people talk to their dog I'm sure the dogs just tune out everything but the important words such as walk, biscuit etc anyway
As for using it incorrectly, as long as a reward ALWAYS follows the click (even if you accidentally click you MUST follow it with a reward) then it's very hard to go wrong. Yes, you'll click at the wrong time sometimes but it's not the end of the world. Timing is important but we've all screwed up on it at times and timing is important in ANY training anyway. And don't fall into the trap of using it for recall because your dog comes running when he hears it. Basically what the clicker does is mark the behaviour the dog is doing at that very instant. You can do the same thing with your voice but the click is always the same sound and isn't affected by emotion like your voice is. And with how much most people talk to their dog I'm sure the dogs just tune out everything but the important words such as walk, biscuit etc anyway
Not quite sure what you mean by this. Do you mean could you teach some things with the clicker and some things without it? Well, yeah but I don't see why you'd want or need to to be perfectly honest.And is it possible to use it some times and not use it other times (like when training different behaviors) and the dog wouldn't be confused?
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iheartmarcus
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Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
I see I see. Thanks for your input Sarah! I'll be sure to ask the trainer why she doesn't like it.But the pet store dude said he doesn't recommend it because what if you don't have it on you one day? I've been reading about clicker training, and he probably just doesn't know about phasing out the clicker. Speaking of which, you have any recommended resources on how to charge and phase out clickers correctly? I would rather not make silly mistakes again, haha.
Yeahh, that's exactly what I mean! Well, I only ask because when watching Kikopup's videos, she says for things like capturing calmness, it's better not to use a clicker since some dogs might get aroused by the clicker since they think "ohh! treat!" or something like that. Or possibly if I see a behavior I really like and want to reinforce but I don't have a clicker, sort of situation?Sarah83 wrote:Do you mean could you teach some things with the clicker and some things without it? Well, yeah but I don't see why you'd want or need to to be perfectly honest.
Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Ah I see what you mean now. You can reward the dog as usual if you don't have a clicker right with you, I think a lot of us who clicker train have a word we can use if we haven't a clicker handy, I use "Woo!" not sure why I use that though 
The clicker is just clearer to the dog. I usually have one on me most of the time but you don't have to carry a clicker and treats around 24/7 for the rest of your life. I'd guess the pet store dude is also against treats as a reward because "what if you don't have treats with you?" 
There are a lot of clicker training websites out there.
www.clickertraining.com is probably a good one to start with. You have to register but it's free to do so
http://www.clickersolutions.com/ is another good one.
For charging the clicker just sit there with your dog, click, treat, click treat, click treat. Once your dog is actively looking for the treat when he hears the click the clicker's charged. Getting them to realise that they're behaviour is what makes you click can take a bit longer, I find things like 101 things to do with a box handy for that. I don't really phase the clicker out as such, I just stop clicking for the behaviour once the dog's learned it. I still reward but without clicking.
If you can find a good clicker training class near you that would be the best but you can learn it from websites and books, I did coz there was no way on earth I would have been able to take him to classes, he was too frightened.
The clicker is just clearer to the dog. I usually have one on me most of the time but you don't have to carry a clicker and treats around 24/7 for the rest of your life. I'd guess the pet store dude is also against treats as a reward because "what if you don't have treats with you?" There are a lot of clicker training websites out there.
www.clickertraining.com is probably a good one to start with. You have to register but it's free to do so
http://www.clickersolutions.com/ is another good one.
For charging the clicker just sit there with your dog, click, treat, click treat, click treat. Once your dog is actively looking for the treat when he hears the click the clicker's charged. Getting them to realise that they're behaviour is what makes you click can take a bit longer, I find things like 101 things to do with a box handy for that. I don't really phase the clicker out as such, I just stop clicking for the behaviour once the dog's learned it. I still reward but without clicking.
If you can find a good clicker training class near you that would be the best but you can learn it from websites and books, I did coz there was no way on earth I would have been able to take him to classes, he was too frightened.
Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
kikopup to the rescue http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup#p/c ... nIgCMiztR0 first segment will show how to load the clicker.
the comment "you wont' always have the clicker with you" to me indicates that person may not really get the role of the clicker. I also felt this way when I first heard about using a clicker. but the reality is, it's a non issue. The clicker is a tool to teach and once the behavior (such as sit) has been learned you shouldn't need to always click to get your dog to sit. as you progress with your training, again using the example of sit you start to proof the behavior (such as sit) in different situations as your dog learn that sit mean butt on the ground not only in the living room, but back yard, on the sidewalk, at the beach, in the woods, at the part etc. each time you are in a new context do need to sort of start from scratch to teach sit and the clicker is helpful for that, but again as your dog "gets it" you phase it out. eventually you have a dog that sits when asked in just about any situation or location and guess what, no clicker required.
Also, as sarah has already said, you don't have to use a clicker to achieve the same function/result. "clicker" training is really more about how to teach and how dogs learn, the clicker is just a small part. BUT yet a POWERFUL part because it's a consistent and precise means to say "yes you got it right and a reward is coming soon". I have taught my dog that click = reward for getting it right. I have also taught him that when I say YES it also means you got it right. because there is some truth even once you understand even the basics of "clicker" training to the "issue" of not always having a clicker when your still in the learning/teach phases. I also took a tip from Patricia McConnell and always pair verbal praise with my food reward. this helps for when you want to just use praise from time to time when treats are out of reach or not practical or you believe you have reached the point it's time to phase them out.
Same idea with the treats/rewards. the eventual goal is to NOT have to reward with a treat every time you ask for a sit. eventually you want to keep your dog guessing as to what it will earn for sitting. will it just be praise this time, or will it be a chance to play tug or will it be fetch or will it be food. So again, "I don't use treats because I won't always have them" argument is a non issue because the goal is to move away from always rewarding with treats.
People who don't understand the role of rewards (ie treats) and clickers often knock them based on what some other "expert" has said. The ultimate goal is to not have to walk around with a treat bag and a clicker and your dog at least respond to the basics and accept verbal praise as their reward.
if you want to read all the geeky details behind clicker training, this is the Bible for doing so http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Dog-Te ... 1860542387
http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup#p/c ... nIgCMiztR0 first segment will show how to load the clicker.the comment "you wont' always have the clicker with you" to me indicates that person may not really get the role of the clicker. I also felt this way when I first heard about using a clicker. but the reality is, it's a non issue. The clicker is a tool to teach and once the behavior (such as sit) has been learned you shouldn't need to always click to get your dog to sit. as you progress with your training, again using the example of sit you start to proof the behavior (such as sit) in different situations as your dog learn that sit mean butt on the ground not only in the living room, but back yard, on the sidewalk, at the beach, in the woods, at the part etc. each time you are in a new context do need to sort of start from scratch to teach sit and the clicker is helpful for that, but again as your dog "gets it" you phase it out. eventually you have a dog that sits when asked in just about any situation or location and guess what, no clicker required.
Also, as sarah has already said, you don't have to use a clicker to achieve the same function/result. "clicker" training is really more about how to teach and how dogs learn, the clicker is just a small part. BUT yet a POWERFUL part because it's a consistent and precise means to say "yes you got it right and a reward is coming soon". I have taught my dog that click = reward for getting it right. I have also taught him that when I say YES it also means you got it right. because there is some truth even once you understand even the basics of "clicker" training to the "issue" of not always having a clicker when your still in the learning/teach phases. I also took a tip from Patricia McConnell and always pair verbal praise with my food reward. this helps for when you want to just use praise from time to time when treats are out of reach or not practical or you believe you have reached the point it's time to phase them out.
Same idea with the treats/rewards. the eventual goal is to NOT have to reward with a treat every time you ask for a sit. eventually you want to keep your dog guessing as to what it will earn for sitting. will it just be praise this time, or will it be a chance to play tug or will it be fetch or will it be food. So again, "I don't use treats because I won't always have them" argument is a non issue because the goal is to move away from always rewarding with treats.
People who don't understand the role of rewards (ie treats) and clickers often knock them based on what some other "expert" has said. The ultimate goal is to not have to walk around with a treat bag and a clicker and your dog at least respond to the basics and accept verbal praise as their reward.
if you want to read all the geeky details behind clicker training, this is the Bible for doing so http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Dog-Te ... 1860542387
Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Yup, I've been clicker training for 7 years now and certainly don't carry treats or a clicker around with me all the time and yet Rupert obeys unless he's too frightened or is focused on prey. I generally have a clicker close to hand in the house but by the time I've grabbed it the behaviour I wanted to mark is over anyway so that's why I also taught a verbal marker. While the reward should come close to the click/verbal marker you can make running into another room to get the treat part of the reward. In fact I think Rupert prefers that to the actual treat
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iheartmarcus
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Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Thanks so much Sarah and Jacksdad!
At my puppy class today, I asked the trainer why she didn't like clickers. She said she never got it to work right and she feels like the clicker is just a click and she prefers to use treats. Uh..... Soooooo, needless to say, I grabbed a clicker from the store right after. And the clicker is loaded! Also, stocked up on a different variety of high value treats. Let's see what this little sucker can do to resist my training now! Bahahahahahaaaa.
I've been using "yes" and "good" as markers till now, so I think it'll all be good! Although I am very tempted to switch to "woooooo!" (I get a mental image of a crowd doing the wave for some reason), haha. Worst comes to worst, I can always stock up on clickers, since the Clik-R I got is less than $2.
At my puppy class today, I asked the trainer why she didn't like clickers. She said she never got it to work right and she feels like the clicker is just a click and she prefers to use treats. Uh..... Soooooo, needless to say, I grabbed a clicker from the store right after. And the clicker is loaded! Also, stocked up on a different variety of high value treats. Let's see what this little sucker can do to resist my training now! Bahahahahahaaaa.
I've been using "yes" and "good" as markers till now, so I think it'll all be good! Although I am very tempted to switch to "woooooo!" (I get a mental image of a crowd doing the wave for some reason), haha. Worst comes to worst, I can always stock up on clickers, since the Clik-R I got is less than $2.
Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Ah, see what I mean? She doesn't fully understand how it works so doesn't like it. Same problem I've run into with a lot of people unfortunately. Another one is people using it like a remote control, pointing it at their dog and clicking away then complaining "it's not working!" like it was supposed to magically make the dog do something.At my puppy class today, I asked the trainer why she didn't like clickers. She said she never got it to work right and she feels like the clicker is just a click and she prefers to use treats
I think I choose "woooooo!" because it's something I don't use at any other time. I use yes and good a lot simply while talking to Rupert and wanted something unique. And I kinda do my own little version of the wave, arms go up in the air and I kinda dance a bit and everythingI've been using "yes" and "good" as markers till now, so I think it'll all be good! Although I am very tempted to switch to "woooooo!" (I get a mental image of a crowd doing the wave for some reason), haha.
God, anyone watching me train Rupe when I've not got the clicker on me will think I'm absolutely barmy! Ah well, we make a good pair, he's mad as a hatter.Good on you for at least giving it a try. It's not like a clicker is an expensive piece of equipment so if it doesn't suit you it's no big deal really. Oh, and I would 2nd Jacksdads recommendation of Don't Shoot The Dog. While it's not the most exciting book I've ever read it really did help me get my head around the whole training business.
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iheartmarcus
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Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Yeahhh, clicker training is actually going really well! I read Don't Shoot the Dog and Clicker Training: 4 Secrets of Becoming a Supertrainer. Both are really helpful books, definitely appreciate the step-by-step instructions included in the second book (I'm so paranoid of doing something wrong so the broken down instructions are very reassuring, haha). I've been following their advice and clicking whenever Marcus looks at me or follows me himself inside the house and outside, so he's been paying more attention to me. They also suggest charging a marker word that is "sacred" and always must be followed by a treat. Since I find myself saying "yes" and "good" all the time, I think I am definitely stealing your "woooo!", haha.
But I have a new question that's coming up. Since you are supposed to treat very generously in the beginning stages of clicker training a new behavior, I find myself feeding him a lot more treats that I would like (I've switched to using high value treats for leashing training sessions outside and for swapping something out of his mouth, etc.). So I've reduced his normal kibble diet, but I'm afraid treats are making up too big a percentage of his diet. How did you balance the training / treats and normal diet?
Also, since Marcus has so many puppy tendencies that need to be addressed, what do you suggest as priority for training? Getting sliiiightly overwhelmed, haha.
But I have a new question that's coming up. Since you are supposed to treat very generously in the beginning stages of clicker training a new behavior, I find myself feeding him a lot more treats that I would like (I've switched to using high value treats for leashing training sessions outside and for swapping something out of his mouth, etc.). So I've reduced his normal kibble diet, but I'm afraid treats are making up too big a percentage of his diet. How did you balance the training / treats and normal diet?
Also, since Marcus has so many puppy tendencies that need to be addressed, what do you suggest as priority for training? Getting sliiiightly overwhelmed, haha.
Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Feel free to steal my "woo!" it's worked well for me even if it does make me look a bit odd
Is he fed dry food? If so you can use pieces of that as training rewards in places that don't really have any distractions and only use treats for high distraction places or really difficult behaviours or when he's done something super well. If you're in the UK then Fish4dogs has some tiny little training treats, Super Star training treats http://www.fish4dogs.com/Products/super ... g-dog.aspx A food reward only has to be very tiny. A lick of of meat paste or a small piece of hot dog is fine, something they can eat quickly and easily.
What is priority for training is different for everyone I'm afraid. What puppy tendencies are you having problems with? Priority for me when I got Rupert was to get him less scared of life in general and the manners training came later, priority for someone else might be to stop nipping, for someone else it may be to stop jumping up or whatever.
Is he fed dry food? If so you can use pieces of that as training rewards in places that don't really have any distractions and only use treats for high distraction places or really difficult behaviours or when he's done something super well. If you're in the UK then Fish4dogs has some tiny little training treats, Super Star training treats http://www.fish4dogs.com/Products/super ... g-dog.aspx A food reward only has to be very tiny. A lick of of meat paste or a small piece of hot dog is fine, something they can eat quickly and easily.
What is priority for training is different for everyone I'm afraid. What puppy tendencies are you having problems with? Priority for me when I got Rupert was to get him less scared of life in general and the manners training came later, priority for someone else might be to stop nipping, for someone else it may be to stop jumping up or whatever.
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Dibbythedog
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Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
Its quicker by clicker is my motto.
Kikopup is brilliant! I found Melissa Alexanders book Click for Joy very useful. It sets out the frequently asked questions about clickers and answers then in an understandable way . If you go to Dogwise website , you can look inside the book.
Alison
Kikopup is brilliant! I found Melissa Alexanders book Click for Joy very useful. It sets out the frequently asked questions about clickers and answers then in an understandable way . If you go to Dogwise website , you can look inside the book.
Alison
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iheartmarcus
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Re: Puppy Unresponsive to Training
I am so obsessed with clicker training. I don't know if it's also a bit of a coincidence from earlier trainings finally starting to pay off or what, but I feel like everything from crate training to leash training to obedience training improved quite a bit since I started clicker training Marcus! I've managed to get him to target my fingers and do spins too! I've also started to feed him his meals 90% through training and 10% through interactive toys only. He pays attention a lot more now and he is pooped out and naps afterwards. 'Tis a gooooood feeling indeed.
Current priority for training: stop counter surfing! The pup is a quick one.... had several training accidents where he managed to get the food I set out on the floor / table. Faillllllllll.
Current priority for training: stop counter surfing! The pup is a quick one.... had several training accidents where he managed to get the food I set out on the floor / table. Faillllllllll.
