Aggressive outbursts

Share your favorite training tips, ideas and methods with other Positively members!

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

Post Reply
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Aggressive outbursts

Post by JudyN »

Hi! :D

I'll try to be reasonably brief, because it's a bit of a saga.... I have a 19-month-pld lurcher who I have had since he was 7 weeks old. He's our first dog, not counting a couple I had as a child. As far as I could tell the litter were well cared for, and from the start he was raised using positive methods. He was a very high-energy pup, mouthy despite all our efforts to teach bite inhibition, and clingy.

As early as around 12 weeks he started showing food and possession guarding behaviour. He's always been fine with toys, but as well as food he would guard anything he stole, such as socks. This is despite the fact that we never removed food from him, though we practised exchanges and taught him 'leave' in a positive fashion. We followed his trainer's advice, but to be honest the behaviour got to be so bad so quickly we didn't have time to work out an appropriate strategy to control it. 'Trading up' wouldn't work: at his worst, at around 6 months old, he once nicked a plastic measuring spoon and I offered him a lamb steak in exchange, but he flew at me and bit me on the shoulder. He also attacked me once when he had a pair of my son's underpants and I just looked at him wondering what to do.

We worked with a positive bevhaviourist, and made some progress, but in February he had a disagreement with my husband over a bread roll in a carrier bag - Jasper was on lead but managed to lunge for the bag in the gutter, hubby pulled him away and Jasper dropped the bag, Jasper then had a tantrum and bit my husband in the hand badly enough to need to go to A&E (though no stitches were needed). The behaviourist then said that Jasper was 'on borrowed time' :x

We have a new behaviourist and have made further progress - if he has a kong I can call him away with a call of 'sausage!' or hand him a piece of food while he has a kong, and we've even started work with bones, though so far all I do is walk past him and throw treats as I approach. He's stopped guarding 'stolen objects'. Almost all of the advances have been done by allowing him to feel relaxed when he has something and calling him away/distracting him if necessary - as he is so suspicious I have largely avoided working on 'leave' or exchanges for high-valued items. I also feel that 'pestering' him when he has a kong by asking him to exchange it, even for something better, will instantly induce stress - at least for now.

He is also very highly strung in certain situations - he freaked out when we tried him at lurcher racing and tried to attack the man who releases the dogs (leading to a lecture on how we need to pin him down and make him submit :roll: ). We've tried showing him, but he'll turn into a kangaroo in the show ring. He's nervous of children and has snapped at them a couple of times. He sometimes also develops a fear about going to our local woods - I haven't quite sussed that one out, though I have one or two theories... He completed beginner's and intermediate training classes, but was always hyper in class and would turn into a kangaroo. Last summer we had a huge problem with him jumping and biting our arms on walks, but now he only does this when he's overexcited/stressed and can't control himself - often he will run towards me with that look in his eye, but then he'll pull up at the last moment - particularly if I say 'Ah-ah!' and hold up a finger - and then I'll reward him for not jumping up.

In general, despite all this, he is obedient and well-mannered round the house. Being a lurcher he's an incorrigible thief and I can't leave anything out, but he will leave the kitchen when I ask him to. If I drop a treat on the floor in front of him and he thinks I did it intentionally, he will wait till he's told he can have it, but if he thinks it was an accident he'll grab it at lightning speed :lol: He's always muzzled when we go out because apart from his fear of children, he's cheeky enough that he would nick food out of a passer-by's shopping bag (he once got a pork pie this way, and he has also nicked someone's car keys and a woolly hat!), but he would bite them if they tried to take it back. He also scavenges and if he found a bone while off lead and a stranger approached him he could attack. And I don't even want to think about picnics.....

My real worry at present, is that he is easily stressed and easily frustrated, and will use his teeth when this happens, even on me. If he decides he doesn't want to go on a particular walk and I pull him along, he may well jump up and attack me, and if he wasn't muzzled he would do serious harm - I really don't think he's playing :( This last week has been particularly bad as he hurt his wrist and has been on lead walks all week - he's had several of these tantrums. He's also growled a couple of times, both on having his muzzle put on and taken off, though he's usually absolutely fine with it. It's easy to say that he'll be fine once he can run properly again, but there will always be occasional stressors in his life. So, having got to this stage, with all the work we've done, it doesn't seem right that we have a dog who seems loving, trusting, well mannered and obedient almost all the time, can still attack his owners in a way that would have probably seen him put down by now if it wasn't for muzzles :cry: I suppose before his injury we would see, maybe, one show of aggression every couple of weeks, so this week has made his problems seem particularly bad.

A couple of other bits of information - he's about 30" to the shoulder and very long, and 31kg. I'm 5'0" and about 8 stone, so when he does jump up on me, I know about it! I normally stagger to the nearest tree or fence and wrap his lead round it, and ignore him till he calms down. He was neutered at 10 months - rather early (depending on who you speak to), but I thought it essential because of his aggression. He generally gets on really well with other dogs - if he sees one he's not sure about he'll hide behind a tree till it's gone by :lol:

Any suggestions for further strategies would be very welcome, or even just 'He sounds like my dog but he's getting better with age' or something... I'm a regular on a lurcher forum but feel a bit alone as lurcher are normally so gentle! According to the behaviourists, I haven't done anything to cause this behaviour and it must be either genetic or early experiences - I've since met his mother and sister and they both growled at him :shock: Don't think they've ever shown aggression towards their owner though. They live in a multi-dog household and I often wonder if Jasper would have been better in that sort of environment, where he could have learnt from other dogs. They both hunt rabbits, too, but I can't see anyone getting a rabbit off Jasper if he managed to catch one...

His normal routine (when he's not injured) is that he has a walk of around 1.5 hours in the morning, and similar in the afternoon. I work at home so am around most of the time - as he's clingy I make a point of going out most days - I can leave him for 2 hours, but it's taken a long time getting there! We'll usually have some sessions of play and training during the day. He's raw fed, as no kibbles suited him (sloppy poos!), and has had full bloods, thyroid, etc done at the vet's. I tried Zylkene - he seemed too quiet and quite depressed, though I'm not 100% sure that was the Zylkene (it was over the winter and the vet thinks it may have been seasonal affective disorder!), and it didn't reduce the aggression.

OK, so it wasn't so brief..... Sorry! And thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Aggressive outbursts

Post by emmabeth »

Not brief, no but very detailed and we LIKE that.

Do you know how he is bred at all - photos?? We LIKE lurchers, especially me and Nettle too, in fact what Nettle doesn't know about lurchers isn't worth knowing, and I don't say that lightly!

They are sensitive dogs and young ones are frequently NOT for the faint-hearted, like a fine wine or cheese, they definitely improve with age (she says, smugly, as her sighthounds/lurchers are 4 and 6 and 11).

How long have you tried JUST managing things and not actually trying to push for doing 'new' t hings - I might be getting the wrong impression but it sounds like you have tried to do quite a lot of high-octane things with him and that can fry brains.

Muzzle him wherever and whenever you need to to feel safer and more confident - just be wary that you do not then use this to allow you to do things he isn't ready to do. So yes, muzzle him for walks, but don't walk in busy places because he is safely muzzled.

I think you are onto something when you say leaving him to relax and changing the subject rather than directly confronting him (even to trade) over an issue is getting you better results.

This may just be a matter of time, it would definitely help to know how he is bred though, because what I might do with a bull x I wouldnt do wtih a saluki x (gawd forbid hes a saluki x bull x something job.... :lol:) etc etc.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Aggressive outbursts

Post by JudyN »

Image

Image

Here he is: handsome brute, isn't he? :D

His breeding is 5/8 greyhound, 3/8 deerhound, 1/8 bedlington and 1/8 Irish terrier. I blame all the naughty bits on the Irish terrier! :lol: I think part of his problem is that though he looks like a very confident dog when interacting with people and most dogs, he isn't really. I suspect that his worry about going to the woods is due to the number of interactions he has there with other people and dogs which although he seems to cope well with, take a lot of emotional energy - like going to a party when you are going to meet a lot of people you don't know if you're feeling below par. But then again his behaviour when we go that way may be on a par with a child throwing a tantrum because he wanted to go to the toy shop instead of the supermarket...

I don't feel I've been doing too much high-octane stuff (good espression!), as with the guarding I've been working within his limits and he seems relaxed. He did have a strop at me the other day when we were sharing the sofa in the conservatory (the one sofa he is allowed on) and he had a frozen kong - he was fine till I moved, even though I was moving away from him - but I realised that because the kong was frozen, he was waiting for it to thaw and couldn't start eating it. I've shared the sofa a couple of times since while he has a kong with just a little peanut butter inside and he's been fine (I sit partly turned away and don't make any sudden moves till he's finished). BTW, I sit down, offer him the kong while he's on the floor and then he chooses to come onto the sofa next to me.

I'm very pleased that you think this may well be a case of time and management, as I often feel guilty that I'm not actively doing more, but I just can't see that running through loads of 'leave' exercises while he's trying to relax with a desirable object will help him relax, and I don't think it will help with his general problem of not dealing with frustration. For example a while back, while he was on lead, he saw a large knuckle bone and the side of the path and nearly got his nose to it. I asked him to leave, with just gentle pressure on the lead, he did leave it and come to me, took the high-value treat and praise I have him, and then launched at me. cheeky blighter! :lol:

He's likeDr Jeckyll who flips into Mr Hyde when stressed or frustrated, and though I'm often told I should be dealing with the behaviour he shows when he's Mr Hyde, I'm sure the key is for him to be Dr Jeckyll for more of the time, if that makes sense....
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
User avatar
Nettle
Posts: 10753
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: Aggressive outbursts

Post by Nettle »

Thank you thank you thank you for those lovely long detailed posts, which are immensely helpful.

You have basically got a lot of terrier mentality in a body the size of a deerhound lurcher (and he is magnificent). Deerhounds are very slow to mature, so you have also got a six-month-old puppy in a 19 month old body. I understand that you would have had a lot of pressure to get him neutered, and you did it with the best of intentions, but unfortunately it has contributed to your problems because he was neutered in a major fear period (we have a pinned thread on developmental periods which you'd find interesting).

Well done for rejecting the pin-him-down mindsets, and for keeping him on a rawfood diet. You are doing so much that is right :) and here is the good news - he will grow out of a lot of the behaviour that is driving you nuts just now. But not all of it. I could nuke the people who are crossing Irish Terrier into lurchers because they are creating a combative belligerent mindset in what is essentially a gentle and sensitive type of dog. The Bedlington is all terrier too but not so confrontational, and works better in the lurcher mix. All this is hindsight and explanation: you have to deal with the dog as he is now.

You have a most wonderful holistic vet in Bath, which is not too far from you, and I strongly recommend you consult him to help you and your dog through these temperament problems. He is Nick Thompson www.holisticvet.co.uk. With all the good things you are doing now, and help with the mental issues (because essentially you have a giant working-type terrier) and of course from us, you WILL win through and you will get a lovely dog at the end of it. With luck and constructive help, the late-maturing deerhound genes will bring a more gentle dog in time, but that time is a while away yet.

Meantime, recognise that terriers fire up in no time flat, and take a while to de-stress (check out our pinned thread on stress levels for a detailed explanation) keep the muzzle on in any public situations, work on avoiding stress and increasing calm, and - please - come back with any questions and any time you could do with your hand holding. :)
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Aggressive outbursts

Post by emmabeth »

Knowing his breeding really DOES make sense of all this, yes, and WOW, what a dog, he really is magnificent!

Deerhounds (I have a *****) really DO take time to mature and boys in particular can be 'orrible ratbags at times, add in that fire from the terrier side of things (particularly the Irish, as teh Bedlingtons are more 'wouldn't start something but LOVE to finish it!') and you have quite a handful!

Time time and more time are really going to be the key here - mark time, try to maintain the progress you have made but don't worry tooooo much about specifically trying to achieve more for now.

My Deerhound girl has REALLY matured in the last 18 months and shes rising five now, shes become much soppier and cuddlier and less whingey and irritating!

These dogs do NOT take well to being asked to do the same things over and over, and whilst the greyhound/deerhound side would tend towards switching off when the pressure gets too much, the terrier side is going to get frustrated and redirect, which is what he is doing, redirecting his frustration in an aggressive way, at you, because he can't cope.

So don't feel guilty! Management and time, keep things within his ability to cope, and you have a VERY good handle on whats going on and what sets him off and how long he takes to calm down so trust yourself. I think your instincts are VERY good and this isnt an easy dog for a first timer!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
JudyN
Posts: 7018
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Dorset, UK
Contact:

Re: Aggressive outbursts

Post by JudyN »

Thank you so much!! :D What you've told me is pretty much what I've wanted to believe - that a) it's not my fault, b) with management he will in all likelihood grow out of it and c) I don't have to do endless 'leave' exercises, or 'make him realise who's boss', or learn the 'Voice of Doom'. My cousin has an Irish terrier who apparently was terrible till he was three (though not aggressive to people as far as I know) so with that in his make-up plus the slow maturing aspect, plus the lurcher sensitivity it's no wonder he's a bit mixed up :lol: Sometimes I think the sensitive deerhound/grehound is scared of the Irish terrier.... And yes, although he's physically more or less mature, often when he plays with other dogs you can still see the big puppy in him :D

I'm in two minds about the early neutering. I understand what you're saying about it causing a lack of confidence, and I can see that in him when he's confronted by a dog he's unsure about, such as a GSD or husky, or if there's a group of dogs. It's very lucky that he's not reactive to them, but prefers to hide behind a tree... though if he thinks he's in with a chance of a game he'll throw a cheeky paw at them and then hide behind the tree :lol: On the other hand, though, before he was neutered he was very hot-headed and pushy, for want of a better word. For instance I used to let him lick the plates in the dishwasher as I loaded it but he started snarling and lunging at me if I just reached into the cupboard for the dishwasher tablet as he knew I intended to close the door. He seemed to lose some of that 'angry young man' element after he was neutered, and although that may well have settled eventually anyway, the more he continued the more the behaviour would be repeated and reinforced, as it was almost impossible to manage at the level of intensity it was. Still, it's moot now really, as it's done.

His leg's better now, and he's such a nicer dog after having a couple of decent runs today! Several times he belted up to me and ground to a halt at the last moment remembering not to jump up on me, and I think that sort of self-control is really important for him. I think if he ever picks up an injury requiring 'proper' rest I'll ask the vet for a sedative... and take it myself :lol:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Aggressive outbursts

Post by emmabeth »

Regarding the neutering - at around 10 months, hed have had a MASSIVE testosterone increase, really ridiculous and it apparently only happens in dogs - the levels go wayyyyyyyy way above what they would have as an entire adult male and I suspect its something that drives them to push boundaries, seek out new stuff and what leads to adolescent males being told firmly to go forth and youknowwhat! by others within their social group.

It would have naturally dropped anyway, if you could hang on in there, but thats darn hard to do with a big dog biting you, and a wealth of people telling you that neutering will 'fix all'.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Post Reply