Not really Agression but a problem

[Horselove96]

I'm going to start from the begining. My dog i very obedient at almost all times except one. She listens very well and knows many commands over 50. Here's the problem I have trained her to be protctive and she is very good at it. Except when it comes to someone in my house or any person that is tall or large. with new kids in the house I can tell her they are not a threat and she'll leave them but with adults and people that go in my space or in my room. She can get aggressive no biting just growling, baring of the teeth, and few times she has put her mouth around someones leg but no blood or even marks. Yet the person one more and they would have been bit(there were hugging my sister around the neck when she reacted). As I said she is trained to protect and I have taught her that it is okay in most situations when asked to. But at times I need her to be calm and not react when someone hugs me or my sisters. How can I teach her to relax while certain people hug me? and not ruin her training. I need her to accept the people that I need in the house.

She is a German Sheperd, Border Collie, Labrador. 62 pounds, 22 inches tall, always alert. She hears everything up to 35 yards away she can hear me or my sisters talking loudly and yelling. She does have an eye disorder and might possibly be going blind the vet could not tell all the way and I can't afford a specialist. Other than that She's great but doesn't really relax all the the way at any time. She has different degrees according to my standard one is relaxation and ten is absolute fighting mad(never reached that hope she won't have to). She is usually a 3.5-5.5.

So far she has only tolerated 3 people sitting near me and holding her other than me or my family. I work with her everyday. No one can really handle or command her but me. I can call her off when she is chasing people or about to bite 95 percent of the time I need to proof the other 5 percent. I have trained her myself with no outside help and it has been all positive training. She had negative training and almost had a breakdown before I got her at 6 months. She usually very much dislikes people. Loves other dogs. submissive. And accepts any animal I say is safe.

[emmabeth]

This is one of the reasons I tell people that training pet dogs to do protection work is damn dangerous - I realise you did this with the best of intentions but you have done her no favours and it very much puts HER life at risk.

So, I am sorry to have to tell you the above as I am positive you won't like hearing it, but I can't leave it unsaid and risk someone else reading your post and thinking its a good idea, it really really isnt.

I would think that actually a lot of the 'protection' work shes done that you have thought was a good thing was actually her protecting herSELF, because shes scared. A proper, safely trained protection dog is happy, relaxed and friendly with ALL people unless they physically attack the handler or the dog is told to perform a particular behaviour. They will also 'out' on command, every time.

What you have is a scared dog who is fearful of almost all people and reacts with defensive aggression in some circumstances and you do not have full control over her.

Can you see how that is dangerous?

You need to get her to see ALL people as a good thing - you can still have her bark on command, and you can still have the command be something discreet such as a hand signal no one else knows, or a secret word, but you will not make her safe whilst she thinks people are scary things and she feels insecure and unhappy around them.

If you want to work on that we definitely can help you but you do need to be clear on why she behaves the way she does now, that it is not good, and want to fix it and have a safer dog.

The first step you will have to make is to ensure she NEVER is close enough to people to feel threatened or scared by them - thats going to mean you stopping people coming near, taking her away from people, putting her in another room if guests come over etc etc. That is just the start and part of the management strategy we use to get dogs to relax, de-stress and get into a state of mind where they are capable of learning something new.

[Horselove96]

I know about everything your saying I can see that she is dangerous. Unfortanatly I live in area where I need her aggression whether it's fear or not. I do have control over as when she goes after say someone that is tresspasing in my yard she will either stay by my side or if she does move I can call her and she will be by my side in a few seconds. I already apply the methods you mentioned I will put her in a room with a favorite toy and treat when company is coming. I give her a treat for the "big one". Which is something that will make her nervous. Like some one near me or a large man walking in our area she gets a "big one" treat

"If you want to work on that we definitely can help you but you do need to be clear on why she behaves the way she does now, that it is not good, and want to fix it and have a safer dog."

I know what I've and that she did not have enough socializing during training.

If anyone punches at me, tries to hug me or my family, carries a big stick near me, points anything at me, tresspasses in our yard. Are the things that make her react I can almost always call her back or stop her from reacting except a few times. That is what I want to work on. I don't her to react when people hug me or walk with something like a big stick near me. Unless I ask her to. If on leash and outside the house she listens very well to me and I can do anything with her. She also has a foolproof come when outdoors if she just so happens leave my side or is told to leave my side I can call her back and she comes very quickly.

Sorry for the large picture I clicked the wrong thing on my laptop and can't get it off.

[nightsrainfall]

I don't her to react when people hug me or walk with something like a big stick near me. Unless I ask her to. If on leash and outside the house she listens very well to me and I can do anything with her. She also has a foolproof come when outdoors if she just so happens leave my side or is told to leave my side I can call her back and she comes very quickly.

I believe for this, that I agree with Emmabeth. To get her to react for the "correct reason", you will need to work on her reacting for the "incorrect reason." The correct reason would be because it's cue only. For protection dogs, this is 'the word' or the action of their handler being attacked. They are actually trained such that some attacks, the dog doesn't always recognize. Protection dogs are also trained how to bite properly... some fail this part because they will go for areas they shouldn't too many times (throat is one) or in training they end up getting confused and think the goal is to undress a person (it's really kind of funny to see it in action, in a safe environment of course).

As for dogs as personal protection - I don't agree with it. Not because I don't think they can't be used like that, but back in my last place, there were several incidences where the people had dogs, several dogs, and/or protection dogs, and the dogs were always taken care of by the assailants. In one case the dogs were shot, in another the dog was let out of the fence, and in a third (no fence in this one) a window lock was broken, large quantities of food was thrown in, and the partner went around and shut the door on the dogs in the room... Dogs as a warning work very well though. A dog that barks, (doesn't even have to react), on command at someone, usually causes the other to hesitate... My favorite story from a police dog trainer I knew was where a chase had caused the assailants to go up on the roof of a house still armed. The police couldn't get up on the roof at the time because what the men had used, had fallen. Half way through the negotation more police arrived one with his dog... Brought his dog out (it was a hot day), and pointed the men out to him... Supposedly (according to the trainer) the men both put up their hands and said "Don't release the dog! Don't release it, we are coming down!"

I guess I'm trying to say, there are those who have fear of dogs, those who have a respect for dogs, and those who just don't care. Your dog even taught not to react, will assist you with two of those three... and for the last one, no dog can protect from that. I would teach the dog that all people are ok, but when I say "bark" (in another language because I want it to be a special command), I want the dog to bark, even if it's at a chair or whatever... Watchdogs usually remain watchdogs, but they don't have to react...

As for the other 5%, I really don't know how to work on that, without trying to reduce the reactivity and make people a more friendly experience. What's scary is that 5% is a sign that she's getting so wound up that she doesn't hear you anymore... In a shelter, 5% no listening all reactivity becomes 10%, 20%, and soon the dog is unadoptable... if we don't reduce or change the association around what they are reacting to, thus I don't have a clue how to keep a reactivity without control over if it is going too far or not.

Sorry I'm not much help.

[emmabeth]

I think your post was really useful and honest Anna..

Horselove - what you are asking at the moment is not safe or a fair expectation - it is horrid for your dog to continue through life being scared of things that are actually harmless purely because sometimes it makes you feel safe.

I really DON'T want to have a go at you and make you feel bad, but the honest truth is, one day you will fail to control her, one day there will be an accident and she will bite someone who will either hurt her, or take you (or your parents) to court, or have her destroyed.

Is that REALLY worth her sometimes making you feel a bit safer?

We absolutely CAN help you, but you have to be willing and able to do the work - you have been around these boards for a fair while now and been told much of this information before (and it is all over the forums, if you have read any of the other threads you will have come across it). But if you do not let go of the idea that shes protecting you, and that it is a 'good' thing to have her react this way, you will not fix the problem.

You HAVE to prevent her being in situations that scare her and make her react.

That means you will be sacrificing attending some family events or having certain guests over for a while, you will be keeping her on a leash and not getting too close to people, you will need to get assertive and tell people 'no, don't hug me, wait until I have put the dog away'.

You HAVE to get her to see other people as a safe, rewarding thing to be around and that can only be done with slow, patient work with her, going at her pace, feeding her high value rewards when another person is so far away she can just see them, but doesnt fear them.

If shes been getting close enough to people to grab them or bite them, then you haven't been doing the above and she will not get better.

[jacksdad]

Horselove, I completely understand the need/desire to have personal protection. particularly if you live in a bad area. But if your dog isn't of the right temperament, with the right level of confidence and the correct training, looking for protection from your dog is creating a recipe for not pleasant endings.

You list your location as Florida. If that is where you live, believe me you have other options you do not need to try and depend on the wrong dog for protection.

[Sarah83]

A dog does NOT need to be aggressive to be a deterrant. My dog is as soft as they come but he's big enough that he's a visual deterrant and he's also been taught to bark on command which adds to how dangerous he appears to would be attackers. Carrying a muzzle in plain sight also adds to the overall effect. I think he'd turn inside out before bite a human but strangers don't know that. He kept me safe in an area known for muggings, gangs, rapes and murders and he didn't have to be at all aggressive to do so. His bark on command has only been used twice in 7 years, him simply being there is usually enough.

Do you really expect a dog that's frightened to protect you? I wouldn't. I'd expect a frightened dog to run away or shut down if it came down to it.

Most would be attackers will be put off by any decent sized dog and those who are really desperate wouldn't be put off if you had a great white shark on the other end of the leash.

[Nettle]

Great idea about carrying the muzzle, Sarah

[ladybug1802]

I own a fearful aggressive dog and I have read your post and in the back of my mind I can see strong similarities with my dog. He is getting less reactive, but I know he is insecure and fearful, and his first reaction is to lunge/snap/bark etc. If he was put in the position your dog is in, he would be getting worse...no doubt. As others have rightly said, you cant have a fearful dog that you WANT to be aggressive some times, and not at others. The fact your dog reacts when someone is nearby with a big stick, or is hugging you etc, is a strong indicator this dog is NOT a happy, trained protection dog.....it is fearful and the 'aggression' is to chase the things away thathe sees as scary. I know from experience with my dog, that if you keep exposing the dog to these elements and scary things, it will make it more fearful and make the behaviour worse. I'm afraid you cant expect the dog to know when you do want him to be aggressive and when you dont, when his behaviour is rooted in fear.

As Sarah says, a muzzle is a great tool, and I am only just starting to realise its full potential! People who see a dog with a muzzle on tend to stay away....they see that dog as aggressive and dangerous....yet in reality that dog is the only dog they can guarantee will NOT bite them!!

[Sarah83]

The muzzle doesn't even need to be on, just in plain sight (clipped to the strap of my handbag works for me). I carry it in case we have to pass close to another dog but strangers don't know that, they just see a muzzle and instantly become more wary