Hi, my name is Gabe and I'm working with my family's 3 year old Newfoundland, Flora. I have decided to take on the feat of eliminating her separation anxiety. I moved out a while back, but am taking care of her for the month. She has it a bit with all the family members, but especially badly with me as I was her main caretaker as a pup. She won't do crates, but we've managed by doggy-proofing the kitchen and leaving her there while we leave. I'm just tired of coming back home and seeing her exhausted from having barked incessently.
Anyways, here's the changes I've made:
1) We no longer play tug or fetch in the house (only on outings)
2) I close the door behind me whenever I go into the bedroom/bathroom (she would usually follow me in there)
3) All meals come from Kongs - has to do a long down-stay in a separate room before I give it to her (then eats it in separate room)
4) I walk in and out the front door over and over until she eventually gets bored of watching me and lays down
5) Keep her in kitchen (behind gate), while I am on the computer on other side of gate
I know this is a slow process, I just want to see what your opinion is on this. Specifically I am wondering this: When I put her in the kitchen and she starts to whine, does that mean I am moving too fast? For example right now I have her in the kitchen and I have moved further with my laptop than usual. I'm still in sight but its a new distance and she's awake and whining. I want her to start associating alone time with good things - does this contradict that? I told her to stop and go lay down, she did for a few secs then got back up and is panting and whining...what do I do???
thanks,
Gabe
Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
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Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
Last edited by gsab415 on Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Separation Anxiety
Oh and I am trying to avoid all the little details of timing and reinforcement, so I am not giving treats very often. Aside from the down stays for the Kongs (frozen and filled with banana/kibble or peanut butter/kibble or cottage cheese/kibble ), I will throw some kibble on her bed when she's not looking. Flora is very food-motivated so I think offering her treats often will just make her more excited - and I'm trying to get calmness. But just now when she was whining, she finally stopped and laid down - I then opened the gate to let her out because that was the behavior I wanted, and she wants out...but am I sending the wrong message? Am I over-thinking this?
thanks,
Gabe
thanks,
Gabe
Re: Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
Hi Gabe, welcome to the forum, one of my dogs is just getting there with SA, hopefully he will soon be fine. I have had other dogs in the past with this as well.gsab415 wrote:Hi, my name is Gabe and I'm working with my family's 3 year old Newfoundland, Flora. I have decided to take on the feat of eliminating her separation anxiety. I moved out a while back, but am taking care of her for the month. She has it a bit with all the family members, but especially badly with me as I was her main caretaker as a pup. She won't do crates, but we've managed by doggy-proofing the kitchen and leaving her there while we leave. I'm just tired of coming back home and seeing her exhausted from having barked incessently.
Can you explain why please?Anyways, here's the changes I've made:
1) We no longer play tug or fetch in the house (only on outings)
I have found that forcing the dog being seperated from me never worked, what has worked is if I allow my dog to follow me everywhere but I ignore him except when I need him to move, I give the command, good boy, then back to ignoring him. The idea is to make myself very boring and it is working, he now takes himself off to do something more interested like getting into mischief.2) I close the door behind me whenever I go into the bedroom/bathroom (she would usually follow me in there)
By getting him to move away from me instead of forcing him away is getting him to make the decision to find something more interesting, this is the first step in the SA going.
Feeding in a Kong is a good idea but why make her wait a long time for it?3) All meals come from Kongs - has to do a long down-stay in a separate room before I give it to her (then eats it in separate room)
This didn't work for me but it does with many dogs.4) I walk in and out the front door over and over until she eventually gets bored of watching me and lays down
Cyril is usually next to me on the sofa when I am on the computer, he was until a second ago when he decided to go and do his own thing. Again going away from me was his decision not mine and he will be a lot more comfortable being away from me because it was his decision. Must go and see what mischief he is up to.5) Keep her in kitchen (behind gate), while I am on the computer on other side of gate
You are making the decision for her, she isn't happy with the decision you have made, much better if she can make the decision herself. I know by Cyril that he gets fed up with me on the computer and takes himself off as he just done, he is back in now but lying by the door and not by me, that is a big improvement from him.I know this is a slow process, I just want to see what your opinion is on this. Specifically I am wondering this: When I put her in the kitchen and she starts to whine, does that mean I am moving too fast? For example right now I have her in the kitchen and I have moved further with my laptop than usual. I'm still in sight but its a new distance and she's awake and whining. I want her to start associating alone time with good things - does this contradict that? I told her to stop and go lay down, she did for a few secs then got back up and is panting and whining...what do I do???
thanks,
Gabe
I have found that the usual methods didn't work with Cyril until I started to take him with me as much as I can, on the times I can't take him I leave him with one of my other dogs, the TV on and he has several meaty bones to work at while I am gone. The last 2 times he hasn't damaged anything while I was gone so he is improving.
A bit about Cyril to help you understand why, I got him from a pound last January, my vets classed him as a cruelty case because of how thin he was, all his fat and muscle had gone, he was just a big head with a skeleton covered in skin, he was one of the thinest dogs my vet had seen and they deal with a lot of rescue dogs. No wonder he had SA.
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Re: Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
Hi Gabe....my rescue dog had separation anxity when I got him. If he was left he would howl, cry and pace the entire time (I set up a viedo on a number of occasions!). The way I got over this was to build up the time he was left very slowly over time....so start of with simply leaving the front door, waiting a couple of seconds, then coming back in. Then continue this a few times a day for a few days....then increase the time to 10 seconds. Few days later 30 seconds....etc. But the important thing is that the dog is not left alone at any other times as this will put him back a step.
Aolso before you leave try not paying any attention to the dog for maybe 20 mins or so, and when you come back dont immediately greet the dog. Go in, put your keys down, make a drink, sit down then call the dog over for a cuddle.
This is what worked for me and my dog, but I am in a lucky position that if I did have to go out for pre-planned things Dylan would go to my parents house or my friends house (both places he had been a lot with me and trusted them). It is of course more difficult if you dont have someone that can be with the dog!
Aolso before you leave try not paying any attention to the dog for maybe 20 mins or so, and when you come back dont immediately greet the dog. Go in, put your keys down, make a drink, sit down then call the dog over for a cuddle.
This is what worked for me and my dog, but I am in a lucky position that if I did have to go out for pre-planned things Dylan would go to my parents house or my friends house (both places he had been a lot with me and trusted them). It is of course more difficult if you dont have someone that can be with the dog!
Re: Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
Thanks for replying you guys!
@ ladybug1802, would you leave Dylan with any entertainment when you would leave? Like Kongs stuffed with things? I do this, but I am starting to question it, because as I mentioned, Flora loves food and it seems to get her all excited. Moreover, I don't know how I'd fit Kongs into the training program of leaving often for a few minutes. And yeah right now I'm working hard to make sure she is not left alone for a long duration. I had a friend come over and watch her the other day, she only met him once before though and was a bit agitated while I was gone. Definitely better than being completely alone though!
@ Mattie, I agree about the dog losing interest being stronger and more beneficial, its hard though. Everything I do is so exciting to the dog lol! Not playing in the house is my way of becoming less interesting. Moreover, she would often pick up her toy off the ground and nag me to play. Same thing with dinner time, or outings. I am trying to make her realize she doesn't have a say in what I do. Everything is on my terms...and I'm hoping that'll carry over into separation - whining or barking won't help. Oh and I've been making her do long down stays for her kongs because I'm running with the idea that anytime she spends alone, not in a panicky state of mind, is a good thing. There have been some occasions when she does go her own way recently, and even does mischievious things. For example she went to the kitchen and I heard her jump on the counter. I was actually happy about this lol. And lately she's been going in the backyard without me and eating grass. And this morning she wandered away from me at the park...Progress!!
@ ladybug1802, would you leave Dylan with any entertainment when you would leave? Like Kongs stuffed with things? I do this, but I am starting to question it, because as I mentioned, Flora loves food and it seems to get her all excited. Moreover, I don't know how I'd fit Kongs into the training program of leaving often for a few minutes. And yeah right now I'm working hard to make sure she is not left alone for a long duration. I had a friend come over and watch her the other day, she only met him once before though and was a bit agitated while I was gone. Definitely better than being completely alone though!
@ Mattie, I agree about the dog losing interest being stronger and more beneficial, its hard though. Everything I do is so exciting to the dog lol! Not playing in the house is my way of becoming less interesting. Moreover, she would often pick up her toy off the ground and nag me to play. Same thing with dinner time, or outings. I am trying to make her realize she doesn't have a say in what I do. Everything is on my terms...and I'm hoping that'll carry over into separation - whining or barking won't help. Oh and I've been making her do long down stays for her kongs because I'm running with the idea that anytime she spends alone, not in a panicky state of mind, is a good thing. There have been some occasions when she does go her own way recently, and even does mischievious things. For example she went to the kitchen and I heard her jump on the counter. I was actually happy about this lol. And lately she's been going in the backyard without me and eating grass. And this morning she wandered away from me at the park...Progress!!
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Re: Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
Hi Gabe...I ALWAYS leave Dylan with things to occupy him whenever I leave him! I have had him since Nov 2009 and I always leave him with something....I constantly have a large and X-Large kong in the freezer stuffed with kibble/banana/light cream cheese/peanut butter/carrot/brocollo stalk depending on what I have. I often feed him his breakfat or dinner in his kong wobbler when i go out...sometimes give him half his dinner at the usual time, and the othetr half when I go out in his kong wobbler. I also have a Nina Ottoson Dog Pyramid, and I often split his food between the 2, so it gives him more to do and takes twice as long. If I am only popping out for 15 mins or so I will maybe just scatter some kibble around the room/in his crate/in the kitchen so he has a little something to do. You can also wrap treats up in newspaper and then in a cardboard box (if no staples) and then the dog can spend his/her time getting the treats out.
Even if my friend who is a dog walker and has Dylan most of the time when I am at work drops him off an hour or so before I come home, she gives him one of his kongs from the freezer. He is fine being left now, but I want him to stay like that!
So if you are just leaving for a few minutes, you could just smear a little bit of peanut butter inside the rim of the kong and around the inside...maybe jkust give it to her 5-10 mins before you leave, then just get up and go, and leave it with her when you get back....although if she is anything like Dylan if the kong isnt frozen it takes him no time at all to lick it all out!!
Oh and I always leave the tv on for him if I leave him.
It does take a really long time....it took me a good few months, and even then we did have a couple of setbacks. For example, when my friend started dropping him off at home (I always used to pick him up from her on my way hnome because of his separation anxiety) he was rather anxious when I got home and had often been to the toilet in the house. We stopped doing that for a while, and I went back to collecting him from her, and then we tried again a couple of months later, and he was fine! But well done for putting the effort in and realising it will be a slow process!
Even if my friend who is a dog walker and has Dylan most of the time when I am at work drops him off an hour or so before I come home, she gives him one of his kongs from the freezer. He is fine being left now, but I want him to stay like that!
So if you are just leaving for a few minutes, you could just smear a little bit of peanut butter inside the rim of the kong and around the inside...maybe jkust give it to her 5-10 mins before you leave, then just get up and go, and leave it with her when you get back....although if she is anything like Dylan if the kong isnt frozen it takes him no time at all to lick it all out!!
Oh and I always leave the tv on for him if I leave him.
It does take a really long time....it took me a good few months, and even then we did have a couple of setbacks. For example, when my friend started dropping him off at home (I always used to pick him up from her on my way hnome because of his separation anxiety) he was rather anxious when I got home and had often been to the toilet in the house. We stopped doing that for a while, and I went back to collecting him from her, and then we tried again a couple of months later, and he was fine! But well done for putting the effort in and realising it will be a slow process!
Re: Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
I don't know if we have one already (I've missed it if we have) but I'd love to read an Article on SA by you Ladybug. I always pick up interesting new snippets every time you talk about it!
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Re: Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
Aw thanks Minkee!! I think there are probably just a few bits and pieces in response to other people's threads....there isnt a thread by me as I hadnt found this forum at that time and dealt with it myself....and it seemed to work! It may not work for everyone, and it is very restrictive because you cant just pop out without taking the dog with you! But he is now a very settled and chilled boy when he is left at home.....altho I take care tio never leave him longer than 4 hours, 5 maximum at a push. Then I leave him with a tonne of stuff!
I cant remember what so called dog training place said this, but someone I know said someone had said their method of 'training' a dog out of SA was to go out, wait for the dog to howl/whine/cry or whatever, then somehow sneak in another area of the house and 'correct' the dog by means of a loud noise or a verbal correcton! Good lord....if I had done that with Dylan he would have been an absolute nervous anxious wreck. So sad.
I cant remember what so called dog training place said this, but someone I know said someone had said their method of 'training' a dog out of SA was to go out, wait for the dog to howl/whine/cry or whatever, then somehow sneak in another area of the house and 'correct' the dog by means of a loud noise or a verbal correcton! Good lord....if I had done that with Dylan he would have been an absolute nervous anxious wreck. So sad.
Re: Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
Thanks ladybug, gonna buy an XL Kong today. She goes through regular kongs rapidly, even if theyre frozen! Maybe since this Kongll be bigger she wont be able to get at the bottom stuff as easy. And yes...there are some absurd methods out there. I am embarassed to admit that I tried one recently (for about a day). I've always been about Positive stuff only, but when I saw a video on youtube about separation anxiety just being 'bad behavior' when you're out, I thought I'd give correcting her a try. I went into another room, and everytime she'd bark I'd run over and frightfully correct her. She was so shocked because I never do that. I thought it was working when she didn't bark for awhile when I went away again. But she whimpered, then it became a bark, then I had to come back, do it again, this time with even more intensity. On top of feeling like a monster, I fekt like I was rewarding her barks by showing up...even if I was angry that is what she wanted. Being sneaky, like you mentioned, might take care of that...but gosh, its all bad. With punishment its sick how the handler must up the ante to keep the correction meaningful. And healthwise, a scared quiet dog may be just as stressed as a scared barking dog! Glad I remembered my roots and came back to this purely positive approach, Flora surely appreciates it.
Re: Separation Anxiety - Timing & Reinforcement
Of course everything you do is exciting, she is a normal dog, everything I do is exciting to my dogs as well but they learn that sometimes I can't do what they want. It is very hard at times especially when you know a dog has had a very bad past, all you want to do is cuddle them better but dogs don't work like that.gsab415 wrote:Mattie, I agree about the dog losing interest being stronger and more beneficial, its hard though. Everything I do is so exciting to the dog lol!
My dogs don't dictate what I do either, I do accept their need at times which is why I smile at them and give them a quick pat or tickle before carrying on what I am doing. I have accepted their need and gone back to what I want to do. This doesn't make the dog think that they are in control, just the oposite.Not playing in the house is my way of becoming less interesting. Moreover, she would often pick up her toy off the ground and nag me to play. Same thing with dinner time, or outings. I am trying to make her realize she doesn't have a say in what I do. Everything is on my terms...and I'm hoping that'll carry over into separation - whining or barking won't help.
Cyril has only recently stopped trying to get me to play with him because it doesn't work if I am busy, he gets the acknowledgement but nothing more.
My dogs are my companions, my friends, they do have a say in my life but only when I am not busy. Bonnie has just come up for a cuddle while I am typing this, I smiled at her, spoke, gave her a stroke and carried on typing, she is happy now that I have acknowledged her need.
~Acknowledging a dog's needs won't stop them whining or barking when I go out, only making them feel secure and giving them something to do will do that. This is what I used to come home to when I had my Greyhound, it took 18 months for him to feel secure enough not to do damage. I put it into the dog bed, when I went into the room I couldn't see the carpet for the stuffing from the duvet.
That is progress, little steps lead to big strides. The getting her to leave the Kong for a long down stay won't make any difference to her being left, she does this because she doesn't feel safe, by making her feel safe she will stop.Oh and I've been making her do long down stays for her kongs because I'm running with the idea that anytime she spends alone, not in a panicky state of mind, is a good thing. There have been some occasions when she does go her own way recently, and even does mischievious things. For example she went to the kitchen and I heard her jump on the counter. I was actually happy about this lol. And lately she's been going in the backyard without me and eating grass. And this morning she wandered away from me at the park...Progress!!
Shhhhh don't tell her you are happy that she jumped onto the counter, keeping them clean if you have a dog like that can be a nightmare.
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