Humane or not?

[Mattie]

Dogs are much better at killing wild animals than shooting will ever be, during the Second World War hunting in the UK was stopped, my uncle had a farm in North Wales and the area was over run with foxes because there wasn't any hunting. The farmers got together and paid several marksmen to come and shoot as many foxes as they could in 2 days. These farmers shot and killed over 100 foxes, everyone was pleased.

Several weeks later the farms kept coming across fying foxes, they had been shot but not killed, all were in various stages of gangrene. Very few people have seen gangrene, I have, I wouldn't even wish it on my evil SIL, the pain is horendous, so bad that modern painkillers can't stop the pain. I watched my mum die of gangrene thanks to the hospital letting her get bed sores then neglecting them. These farmers done a count on how many foxes they found like this, it was nearly double what they had shot dead in those 2 days. Since then my uncle wouldn't allow a gun on his land and most of the farmers were the same.

It is very difficult to shoot a moving animal, a dog will chase after it and kill it outright, Tommy was a very good killing machine, we didn't know that when we first got her. It didn't matter what the animal was, she would kill it quickly, so quickly that it continued to run for a short while. To people who didn't know it looked like she hadn't killed it outright, she had. The animal, usually rabbits had a short run then nothing. The only time she didn't kill a rabbit outright she was teaching Joe how to kill, I was shocked, I never expected that I took it off Joe and told Tommy to kill it, she did with one bite to the back of the neck.

Many times I found an animal at the side of the road that had been seriously injured by a vehicle, Tommy put these animals out of their suffering very quickly on command. We didn't teach her this, she just seemed to know it.

You only have to see the condition that urban foxes are in these days to realise that the fox population should be controlled more, these foxes are suffering from mange and/or starvation, this is the result of the hunting ban, there isn't enough food in the countryside now so foxes have gone into the towns and cities.

Shooting wild animals is not easy, many are injured and not killed outright, the person doing the shooting then has to try and follow the animal until they can kill them. During this time depending on the injury the animal can be in intensive pain for some time, that doesn't happen when you use dogs.

Instead of banning hunting some animals other methods of controlling their numbers should have been put in place first, animals are suffering now because of it. You can still use dogs to kill rabbits as they are classed as vermin, I tood up to the RSPCA about this, why not rabbits, nobody could answer me apart from "We couldn't get it through because the farmers won't back it if we include rabbits". That is our hunting ban, you can hunt some animals but not others depending how many votes the parties can get. It stinks.

[ladybug1802]

I agree with you there Mattie....it it rubbish that some animals can be hunted legally and some cant. We need some consistency......but there are many flaws with the UK laws!

I hadnt thought of it in the ways you had described I have to say......I have never hnted and all I remember is someone i know who did go telling me of the kill at the end and it has stayed with me. I will never be someone who could hunt because i just couoldnt be involved in killing an animal. I wouldnt even be able to kill an injured animal to put it out of its misery.....Hell i wanted to be a vet when i was younger but would not have been able to put an animal down without being in floods of tears!! But I do realise there are several different sides to the argument!

[Mattie]

I can't kill either Ladybug,

I used to go to the New Year's Day meet, the only time I saw a hare was when we were all sitting round on our horses waiting, it ran through the horses legs and escaped That hunt used to hunt hares mainly but could also hunt foxes.

A lot of emotion has been brought into banning hunting like the hounds pulling the fox apart at the end, that fox is dead, hounds are very good at killing their prey, it is what they are bred to do and also taught. We use knives etc on sheep, cows, pigs etc. different methods but the same outcome, food.

I looked into both sides because I wasn't prepared to take someone's word for what happened and is why I went hunting, I found that those against hunting started by using emotions to get it banned, when they didn't work they started to use violence and didn't bother who or what they hurt, people, hounds and horses were all hurt by various means, these are the people who didn't like hunting, the question needs to be asked, why if they are so violent are they against hunting? These same people were seen fighting at football matches or any other places were there was trouble. It is these that have got hunting banned, not the general public.

[runlikethewind]

There are always going to be violent people from both sides. I see what you are saying Mattie, previously though. It doesn't feel right to me to call hunting a sport.

[Mattie]

I wouldn't class it as a sport either,

[ladybug1802]

A|h now that is one thing I am appalled at actually - the hunt sabateors who, like you say, use violence and vicious means to try and interrupt the hunt. They give anti hunt people a very bad name and they go about it in totally the wrong way.

[Poloplatinum]

I apologize to everybody, but I would really like to get back on topic as time is a factor. What about wild boars though. I do not want to send any bite dogs (too dangerous) but I want a humane and quick death for the boar? How can this be accomplished safely and efficiently?

[ladybug1802]

Yeah sorry Polo.....seem to have gone off topic slightly!

I personally, have no idea other than shooting by a professional who can get the shot right first time.

[Poloplatinum]

It's ok ladybug. I am a pretty good shot so I'm sure I would be alright in that department... It is quite a sad situation however, because the boars are slowly but surely forcing many farmers out of work in the texas area. They chew up and eat almost EVERYTHING! So it is a problem which must be dealt with sooner than later...

[Mattie]

Boars are dangerous animals, you can't ask a dog to help kill them even if it is just flushing them out, you wouldn't ask a dog to help with a lion or tiger, maybe boars are not as bad but if a dog has to have protective vests on it is obviously too dangerous.

I would shoot them providing the gun is suitable to kill the boar.

[Nettle]

RLTW you did not hear a hunting horn the other day. There is no hunting in June. And fox cubs are not ambushed and killed in front of their mothers somebody very stupid told you that.

Polo, my apologies for the quick refer back - I am reading a lot of emotional inaccuracies, and I'd like to say again, if anyone wants to ask any questions about hunting please start a separate thread in Chat.

Now for the wild pigs - there is no reliably humane way of killing them because even shooting can go wrong, especially with such big heavy beasts, and shooting at short range is far too dangerous. Shooting from a high seat is probably the safest way, but as boar (pig, hog) spend much time in heavy thickets, you still need someone or something to drive them in front of the Guns.

[jacksdad]

rifle of proper caliber or archery and when something doesn't go as planned a willingness to do what is necessary to end it quickly for the pig, is probably about as good as you can get. Also, shooting with in a reasonable range. the further away, the more something can go wrong.

Hunting from a stand is sometimes the only legal way in some places, some times it's not legal. So check the local regulations.

If you choose to use a rifle, be a shooter first, hunter second. Using the term shooter to describe someone who practices regularly and develops their shooting skills and knows their rifle. Believe it or not, a lot of hunters don't shoot but a box or two of ammunition (which is less than 50 rounds) a year. they are often not all that skilled with their tools..ie rifle.

as to what caliber? I know this in it's self could open a debate, but in my opinion nothing less than .308. I know technically .223 .30-30 .243 and similar can and have successfully been used, but 308 or 30-06 or 7mm mag and other similar caliber all reduce the chances of things not going clean or to plan, assuming you do your part with your shooting skills.

Also, brush up on the anatomy of the pig. know it's vulnerable points and aim for them. which brings us back to being a shooter first, hunter second because this will require skills as knowing where to place a shot in my opinion is as vital as being capable with your rifle if your looking to do this right.

[Poloplatinum]

Very insightful stuff. Thx everybody. With everything considered and being just be a novice hunter (at most ) and never REALLY hunting game with dogs. I think I will turn down the job entirely. There is far too many moving parts and the possible costs far outweigh the monetary benefits. I will be starting a new thread on the humanity of hunting and possibly another one for the tactics/train-up involved in hunting. It is truly fascinating when we all have our little "debates". And I can't wait to learn more about this stuff from everybody. Also just a quick question. Probalbly a dumb one but I really don't know much about hunting. What is the highest caliber weapon that can be used while hunting big game?

[wvvdiup1]

Best to kill feral pigs, but if you want to do it in a more "humane" way, round them up on a trailer and haul them to an area that is fenced-in, wooded, and has plenty of water (no, I don't mean a farm either), where they have plenty of ground to roam and hunt. However, the latter is not feasible, so shooting with a .270, .30-06, for example, are great a longer distances, however, you'll have to get in a little closer than the other shooters with .270s, .30-06s, for example, to have a cleaner shot, especially when you're shooting the target area of the heart and lungs. Never use dogs for this job as boars have sharp husks and hooves!