New Dog - Reactivity Problems

[ANB723]

Currently we are just fostering him but we are very seriously considering adopting him. He is a 1.5yr/2yr Greater Swiss Mountain Dog (maybe mix?). He is a wonderful boy it seems, very sweet and polite. Has wonderful manners and seems to be low maintenance. He tolerates my excitable 17lb dachshund/spaniel mix very well and they have gotten along great since he's been in the house.

He has growled a little bit at dogs at the adoption events but that's understandable considering how stressful it is for some of the dogs, but for the most part he's okay. He was great at the parade that we did recently with all the other dogs although it was hot and he may have been too hot to do anything. I took him to the dog park today to see how he would do. The rescue said he plays and runs with the other dogs just fine but I was concerned from the growling so I had him on the leash the entire time. He growled a bit and lunged once at my friend's dog. He growled a bit more after that but then seemed to settle down. He greeted a few dogs very nicely (with lots of praise from me) and seemed very relaxed. Then a medium-sized dog came in with all of his hair raised. It seemed okay at first, I heard a little growl but nothing serious. Angus (our foster) had left the dog alone and then decided to go and sniff him. A fight broke out, nothing terrible, I work at a dog boarding kennel and supervise playgroups all the time. There wasn't a lot of intent to harm in the fight, more intimidation than anything else. I pulled Angus off as soon as I could but the other dog kept on following without the owners grabbing him (my friend ended up grabbing him) while my smaller dog grabbed the other dog's legs. It was a bit chaotic. I then took Angus out immediately while my friend got my dog and hers. Needless to say if I go again, not going alone and only going to have one dog. I really didn't think it was going to be that bad, he took really well to my dog.

After that, my friend and I took our dogs to the creek to swim a bit and cool-off. I ended up putting Angus on a long-line while my little dog was on a leash. My friend's dog is leash aggressive with dogs he doesn't know and my dog has been getting more and more reactive (which is a whole 'nother problem). A big St. Bernard snuck up on us and our dogs went off while he just stood there. I felt so embarrassed. Nobody lunged seriously or anything or got close, we were able to keep hold but it was very frustrating. We got them out of there as soon as we could.

I'm just at a bit of a loss of what to do. Since I work at a dog boarding facility, I am allowed to bring my dog(s) and put them in playgroup if there's room. It is a much more controlled environment and most of the dogs are pretty good. I'm thinking I might try putting him in first and go from there. And I'm thinking off-leash but that makes me nervous. I could also use a little advice on what to do with the reactivity. I understand the getting the dog's attention before they react and treating them for behaving well while the dog passes but there are times when I have no idea that a dog is near like this, there were trees all around us and we were doing something else. I figure the best thing I can do is get them out of there as soon as a dog comes around.

I'm concerned about bringing him to family events and meeting the rest of the family's dogs. If I can't take him to the dog park, it's not a huge deal, I do need him to be okay though with meeting some dogs though. We really love this dog and he fits in with our house and lifestyle so well, it would be great if he could be manageable with this. I really don't want to bring him to the dog park if he's going to be a liability.

[emmabeth]

I think I would give him a break from meeting strange dogs for now - concentrate on getting his confidence and trust in you up, so walks alone that focus more on training and avoiding other dogs, lots of clicker training and avoiding stress.

Each of the incidents you recount mean hes met other dogs.. then had a bad experience and whilst he MAY be ok at your workplace, if he isnt its yet another bad experience to stack up with the rest. If you dont have to take him there then for now at least, dont.

With family dogs I would organise meetings with them VERY carefully, ideally have him parallel walking or walking behind the other dog first (off either dogs territory somewhere neutral), keep asking him to look back to you for rewards and generally rewarding him for staying calm and sensible.

Then progress to allowing very short 3 second greetings/butt sniffs and walking away again, and then allow and off lead greeting or a long line greeting, muzzled if you are not sure.

If you take steps to ensure that his meetings with the dosg he NEEDS to get along with go well, by doing the above (ie, ruling out any reason or chance for the dogs to disagree or fall out) you should be ok, but I think if you carry on taking him to really high stress places he is going to learn pretty soon to aggress first, ask questions later.

[ANB723]

Thank you for the response. That makes a lot of sense and I'm perfectly fine with doing so. I'm confident he's not a dog-aggressive dog from what I heard of the rescue's playgroups and how he gets along with my dog, I wouldn't want him to start to be aggressive. I will definitely give him lots of time to adjust with us and to become more confident.

I think I will start taking him to work (maybe next week) but not putting him in playgroup for a while. Will it be okay to eventually to put him? I think he might do better if he's comfortable in his surroundings first which would explain why he's fine at the rescue's kennel but has now become off. I would still like him to be properly socialized for the most part. Do you think it would be considered a bad stressful experience if he does go to work and not in playgroup or anything? Do I need to wait longer for that too?

And for the meeting of the family's dogs, that sounds like a good plan. He met my dog just fine on the sidewalk when we brought him home and didn't seem to have any issues. Should we not go by that and do a more passive approach?

[ANB723]

Would love more opinions if anybody could offer some! Thank you!

[Nettle]

Meet one dog at a time and let at least a day pass before he meets each new dog. It is so easy to overface a dog with this. If any meeting becomes stressful you need several days of meeting no dogs, then of meeting dogs he knows and likes one at a time, then moving on to new dogs one at a time. This applies to the family dogs too - meet them on neutral territory one at a time, walk together, don't try and force social interaction and be happy with a dog that doesn't react. Tiny tiny steps are the road to success.

[Mattie]

There isn't much to add to Emmabeth's post, she is very experienced.

Currently we are just fostering him but we are very seriously considering adopting him. He is a 1.5yr/2yr Greater Swiss Mountain Dog (maybe mix?). He is a wonderful boy it seems, very sweet and polite. Has wonderful manners and seems to be low maintenance. He tolerates my excitable 17lb dachshund/spaniel mix very well and they have gotten along great since he's been in the house.

I bet they look wonderful together, I have a dachshund/cocker spaniel, she sounds very like yours.

He has growled a little bit at dogs at the adoption events but that's understandable considering how stressful it is for some of the dogs, but for the most part he's okay. He was great at the parade that we did recently with all the other dogs although it was hot and he may have been too hot to do anything.

It may have been because of the heat or it may have been because he was flooded with other dogs, reactive dogs do seem to be calm if they are with a lot of dogs.

I took him to the dog park today to see how he would do. The rescue said he plays and runs with the other dogs just fine but I was concerned from the growling so I had him on the leash the entire time. He growled a bit and lunged once at my friend's dog. He growled a bit more after that but then seemed to settle down. He greeted a few dogs very nicely (with lots of praise from me) and seemed very relaxed. Then a medium-sized dog came in with all of his hair raised. It seemed okay at first, I heard a little growl but nothing serious. Angus (our foster) had left the dog alone and then decided to go and sniff him. A fight broke out, nothing terrible, I work at a dog boarding kennel and supervise playgroups all the time. There wasn't a lot of intent to harm in the fight, more intimidation than anything else. I pulled Angus off as soon as I could but the other dog kept on following without the owners grabbing him (my friend ended up grabbing him) while my smaller dog grabbed the other dog's legs. It was a bit chaotic. I then took Angus out immediately while my friend got my dog and hers. Needless to say if I go again, not going alone and only going to have one dog. I really didn't think it was going to be that bad, he took really well to my dog.

Personally I wouldn't take him to dog parks at the moment after this experience, the more he practices this behaviour the worse it will get. You don't want him practicing this.

Hmmm, you other dog sounds more and more like my Dolly, she grabs dogs legs and causes chaose.

After that, my friend and I took our dogs to the creek to swim a bit and cool-off. I ended up putting Angus on a long-line while my little dog was on a leash. My friend's dog is leash aggressive with dogs he doesn't know and my dog has been getting more and more reactive (which is a whole 'nother problem). A big St. Bernard snuck up on us and our dogs went off while he just stood there. I felt so embarrassed. Nobody lunged seriously or anything or got close, we were able to keep hold but it was very frustrating. We got them out of there as soon as we could.

It is bad manners for an owner to let their off lead dog approach dogs that are on a lead, they are on a lead for a reason as your dogs were. No need to feel embarassed, it should be the other owner because of their bad manners in letting their dog approach yours.

I'm just at a bit of a loss of what to do. Since I work at a dog boarding facility, I am allowed to bring my dog(s) and put them in playgroup if there's room. It is a much more controlled environment and most of the dogs are pretty good. I'm thinking I might try putting him in first and go from there. And I'm thinking off-leash but that makes me nervous. I could also use a little advice on what to do with the reactivity. I understand the getting the dog's attention before they react and treating them for behaving well while the dog passes but there are times when I have no idea that a dog is near like this, there were trees all around us and we were doing something else. I figure the best thing I can do is get them out of there as soon as a dog comes around.

At the moment I wouldn't put him in with other dogs, the more he practises the behaviour you don't want the worse he will get, he needs to relax and de-stress.

How long have you had him? Can you give us a run down on his normal day including food, exercise, training etc. We love long posts.

I'm concerned about bringing him to family events and meeting the rest of the family's dogs. If I can't take him to the dog park, it's not a huge deal, I do need him to be okay though with meeting some dogs though. We really love this dog and he fits in with our house and lifestyle so well, it would be great if he could be manageable with this. I really don't want to bring him to the dog park if he's going to be a liability.

At the moment he isn't ready to go to family events, he needs time and space to work out that he now has a very good life and has no need to fear anything, at the moment he doesn't realise this and feels he has to protect himself, you need to turn this round to him thinking that you will always protect him. If you go to viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10923 it will give you an idea of stressed dogs, there is a lot of good articles in that section which may help.

Until his stess levels are down, he has a lot to put up with at the moment, new home, new house rules, new dog already there etc. he needs time to settle down. When they are down you can then start to work with him in his time to turn him round, in the meantime keep him away from strange dogs.

[ANB723]

I bet they look wonderful together, I have a dachshund/cocker spaniel, she sounds very like yours.

Oh really? Nice. Cash is dachshund and english toy spaniel. They do look very cute together and it's nice since Angus will tolerate Cash very nicely as Cash can be a bit of a party dog.

It may have been because of the heat or it may have been because he was flooded with other dogs, reactive dogs do seem to be calm if they are with a lot of dogs.

I think it was because of the heat. He's a little bit of a hit and miss sometimes with dogs. He really seems to be perfectly fine with some dogs, mostly smaller ones, but then others he'll start growling. It's a deep, rumble type of growl that you can only really feel through his throat. And like I said before he had no issues whatsoever with greeting our dog. They greeted on the sidewalk nose-to-nose and it really couldn't have been better. The only time Angus has let out even a little growl at Cash is when Cash decides that he can climb on Angus while he's relaxing...I would growl at Cash too.

At the moment I wouldn't put him in with other dogs, the more he practises the behaviour you don't want the worse he will get, he needs to relax and de-stress.

How long have you had him? Can you give us a run down on his normal day including food, exercise, training etc. We love long posts.

I completely agree with waiting a nice long time for him to go with other dogs. Most of my thinking with him interacting with other dogs is future concerns, currently he's just gonna stick with our dog, Cash, and us until he feels more and more comfortable. And he will be going to work with me but there's not going to be any pressure in meeting other dogs, he can take his good old time. And I think it was way too fast for him to go to the dog park, he just got good reviews from the rescue for friendliness towards other dogs and I really didn't see any problems arising. Now I know. We also wanted to see how he would do so we knew what we were getting into and currently, taking Cash to the dog park is important for his weekly exercise as he needs that social interaction. I regret taking him but I'm glad I know what we're getting into.

We've had him about a week. Food-wise, he has not been eating so well. He just doesn't seem to have a ton of interest in eating. He'll eat maybe a half cup every time he goes to the food bowl. He might be eating a cup a day, maybe. And for a 70 lb dog who is slightly underweight, it is a concern for us. I tried adding just a little peanut butter to 2 cups last night and he ate another cup but then lost interest. He seems to like diamond food over iams though, which was what he was on in the beginning. I might try some wet food for the evening feed. Cash doesn't eat for a day or so after his agility class but this is normal for him and I usually just leave it out until he chomps it all down. Angus is proving to be a little difficult. We're going to get an appt with our vet just because we're so interested in adopting him and would love to have an opinion on what he thinks his overall health is and a suggestion for the not eating. Oh and amount-wise, we've been striving for him to have 2 cups, twice a day. And he's on Diamond Large Breed 60+.

Anyways, I work with him a little each day on sitting nicely and trying to teach him to lie down, stay, and come. We make him wait and sit nicely at the door just like Cash to go outside. Exercise wise, he has been getting a walk everyday with my smaller dog, around 2 neighborhood blocks. And then Angus has been getting an extra walk at night just up and down since it seems he need to walk to have a bowel movement.

At the moment he isn't ready to go to family events, he needs time and space to work out that he now has a very good life and has no need to fear anything, at the moment he doesn't realise this and feels he has to protect himself, you need to turn this round to him thinking that you will always protect him. If you go to viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10923 it will give you an idea of stressed dogs, there is a lot of good articles in that section which may help.

Until his stess levels are down, he has a lot to put up with at the moment, new home, new house rules, new dog already there etc. he needs time to settle down. When they are down you can then start to work with him in his time to turn him round, in the meantime keep him away from strange dogs.

Oh yeah, we realize he's not ready for a family event with other dogs. Assuming we keep him, it'll be well over a month(probably longer) just for him to go to my grandma's house and will probably be much much longer for him to possibly meet another dog. And we will be sure to express our concern with our family members and go about the greeting very carefully. I will be sure to read about the stressed dogs. He should know he has a 17lb protector at all times Thanks so much for the advice, like I said above, for a while he's just going to be sticking with us and Cash. I'm perfectly fine with that and would much rather him have positive experiences over negative when he's ready.

[ANB723]

Just for fun, here they are. Cash on the left, Angus on the right. It's not the best picture ever to show their personalities but it shows how they look together.

[Mattie]

I bet they look wonderful together, I have a dachshund/cocker spaniel, she sounds very like yours.

Oh really? Nice. Cash is dachshund and english toy spaniel. They do look very cute together and it's nice since Angus will tolerate Cash very nicely as Cash can be a bit of a party dog.

I have never heard of an English toy spaniel, I have put a picture of Dolly at the bottom of this post, she is really cute looking but a nightmare to have

I think it was because of the heat. He's a little bit of a hit and miss sometimes with dogs. He really seems to be perfectly fine with some dogs, mostly smaller ones, but then others he'll start growling. It's a deep, rumble type of growl that you can only really feel through his throat. And like I said before he had no issues whatsoever with greeting our dog. They greeted on the sidewalk nose-to-nose and it really couldn't have been better. The only time Angus has let out even a little growl at Cash is when Cash decides that he can climb on Angus while he's relaxing...I would growl at Cash too.

Growling is communication and not aggression usually, the problem is we humans don't bother to listen to what our dogs are telling us so they up it to snarling, then air snapping then biting, Cash will know that Angus is swearing at him, he may not move but push his luck until Angus is a bit more forceful, when possible I let my dogs correct another when they step out of line but do watch that they don't over react, Tilly is inclinded to over react with Cyril but is getting better. He just looks at her and says, "Stupid woman" and walks away.

I completely agree with waiting a nice long time for him to go with other dogs. Most of my thinking with him interacting with other dogs is future concerns, currently he's just gonna stick with our dog, Cash, and us until he feels more and more comfortable. And he will be going to work with me but there's not going to be any pressure in meeting other dogs, he can take his good old time. And I think it was way too fast for him to go to the dog park, he just got good reviews from the rescue for friendliness towards other dogs and I really didn't see any problems arising. Now I know. We also wanted to see how he would do so we knew what we were getting into and currently, taking Cash to the dog park is important for his weekly exercise as he needs that social interaction. I regret taking him but I'm glad I know what we're getting into.

People in rescue often don't read dogs very well, I took on a lovely little girl, was told she was dog friendly and I still have the card which says this on, in fact she wanted to kill every dog she saw including one of my dogs, the following months were a nightmare until she realised she was safe, but outside my home took a lot longer.

No regrets, you took him because of the information you had, it was a bad experience for him but a steep learning curve for you, you are now able to work with him to turn him round, if you hadn't taken him you may not know this yet. Mistakes happen, not a lot we can do about them apart from learn, it is how we handle the mistakes that matters.

We've had him about a week. Food-wise, he has not been eating so well. He just doesn't seem to have a ton of interest in eating. He'll eat maybe a half cup every time he goes to the food bowl. He might be eating a cup a day, maybe. And for a 70 lb dog who is slightly underweight, it is a concern for us. I tried adding just a little peanut butter to 2 cups last night and he ate another cup but then lost interest. He seems to like diamond food over iams though, which was what he was on in the beginning. I might try some wet food for the evening feed.

Do you free feed him? Dog's digestive systems are not designed for free feeding, dogs gorge themselves then go for a day or two without eating, us humans have altered them a little by feeding regularly and changing their shapes. Some dogs, mainly deep chested dogs, are prone to bloat so these dogs have to have several small meals a day. I would feed him twice a day, put his food down, if he hasn't eaten in within 20 minutes take it up again until next feed time. If he gets a lot of treats while training this can affect how hungry he is as well, bit like dogs are not interested in treats after they have been fed.

You have only had him a week, he is still new to you, your home and your house rules, this may also affect his eating, as long as he is eating something I wouldn't worry, several dogs I have taken on didn't eat well at first.

Cash doesn't eat for a day or so after his agility class but this is normal for him and I usually just leave it out until he chomps it all down.

I would do the same, down for 20 minutes then up until the next feed time, your dogs won't starve and may be more inclined to eat. At training class does he get treats?

Angus is proving to be a little difficult. We're going to get an appt with our vet just because we're so interested in adopting him and would love to have an opinion on what he thinks his overall health is and a suggestion for the not eating. Oh and amount-wise, we've been striving for him to have 2 cups, twice a day. And he's on Diamond Large Breed 60+.

I always take a new dog to the vet the day after I get them, if anything develops I am covered and so is the rescue, if you are not happy with his eating get some blood tests done, if there is something developing it will show up in a blood test much earlier than any symptoms.

Cash is just as cute as Dolly, same look, different colour

[ANB723]

Dolly is very cute, looks similar to my Cash.

Do you free feed him? Dog's digestive systems are not designed for free feeding, dogs gorge themselves then go for a day or two without eating, us humans have altered them a little by feeding regularly and changing their shapes. Some dogs, mainly deep chested dogs, are prone to bloat so these dogs have to have several small meals a day. I would feed him twice a day, put his food down, if he hasn't eaten in within 20 minutes take it up again until next feed time. If he gets a lot of treats while training this can affect how hungry he is as well, bit like dogs are not interested in treats after they have been fed.

You have only had him a week, he is still new to you, your home and your house rules, this may also affect his eating, as long as he is eating something I wouldn't worry, several dogs I have taken on didn't eat well at first.

We haven't been free feeding Angus, he's on a twice a day feeding schedule, once in the morning and once in the evening. I know very well of having the scheduled times and only leaving it down for a little bit and had hoped that it would help him eat in the long run. We were also concerned about him being house-trained or not and wanted to make sure he was on a potty schedule. So should we just keep on doing that, even if he's not eating at all? I guess my concern about not enticing him is he just doesn't seem to have much interest at all. I would hope that would change when he gets more acclimated.

For Cash, he's only fed once a day since I heard that small dogs do better on one feeding and it's easier for me since he only gets 3/4c a day. He isn't really free fed either. I feed him in the evening and he usually eats it right away, unless after agility. He gets tons of treats at class as he is a little ADD and I treat him lots when he focuses. He gets a mix of cheese/or hot dog and then pieces of the wellness jerky treats, the only dry treat he's motivated for. The only time it's left out is when he doesn't eat after agility. He will usually eat it the next day at his normal feeding time and then I'll go back to the feeding schedule. We might switch him to 2 feedings again since it might be easier with Angus being on 2 feedings but I'm not sure yet.

I always take a new dog to the vet the day after I get them, if anything develops I am covered and so is the rescue, if you are not happy with his eating get some blood tests done, if there is something developing it will show up in a blood test much earlier than any symptoms.

We would have if he was a permanent dog but since technically he's a foster and was just at the shelter outreach vet last week, it didn't seem necessary. We have fostered numerous times from the rescue and haven't taken the dogs to the vet unless needed. Mostly too because the rescue provides vetting for fosters and will only do it through their vet. He'll be going to ours early next week and we'll definitely discuss the eating and maybe getting tests done. We also wanted to get an opinion on his hips as our previous dog had hip displaysia. I don't see the sway in his hips as I did in our older dog but I'll be interested to get the vet's opinion.

[Mattie]

We haven't been free feeding Angus, he's on a twice a day feeding schedule, once in the morning and once in the evening. I know very well of having the scheduled times and only leaving it down for a little bit and had hoped that it would help him eat in the long run. We were also concerned about him being house-trained or not and wanted to make sure he was on a potty schedule. So should we just keep on doing that, even if he's not eating at all? I guess my concern about not enticing him is he just doesn't seem to have much interest at all. I would hope that would change when he gets more acclimated.

Was he eating when he was in the rescue? If so what was he fed?

There could be many reasons for him not eating, he may not like the food but over a week of not eating I am not surprised you are worried.

For Cash, he's only fed once a day since I heard that small dogs do better on one feeding and it's easier for me since he only gets 3/4c a day. He isn't really free fed either. I feed him in the evening and he usually eats it right away, unless after agility. He gets tons of treats at class as he is a little ADD and I treat him lots when he focuses. He gets a mix of cheese/or hot dog and then pieces of the wellness jerky treats, the only dry treat he's motivated for. The only time it's left out is when he doesn't eat after agility. He will usually eat it the next day at his normal feeding time and then I'll go back to the feeding schedule. We might switch him to 2 feedings again since it might be easier with Angus being on 2 feedings but I'm not sure yet.

Not heard that about small dogs, I used to have 2 that needed feeding 3 times a day and have continued to feed my dogs like this after they went to the Rainbow Bridge. Joe had food allergies and I nearly lost Merlin with bloat and chocolate poisoning, he managed to get the chocolates off a shelf 7ft off the ground. I continued to feed 3 times a day because I like it and so do my dogs, it fits in with my day nicely but I don't tell others to feed this often, twice is plenty for most dogs.

We would have if he was a permanent dog but since technically he's a foster and was just at the shelter outreach vet last week, it didn't seem necessary. We have fostered numerous times from the rescue and haven't taken the dogs to the vet unless needed. Mostly too because the rescue provides vetting for fosters and will only do it through their vet. He'll be going to ours early next week and we'll definitely discuss the eating and maybe getting tests done. We also wanted to get an opinion on his hips as our previous dog had hip displaysia. I don't see the sway in his hips as I did in our older dog but I'll be interested to get the vet's opinion.

I wasn't criticising you, it is more difficult with a foster dog, you have to get permission first. You do need this information though because you are seriously considering adopting him, the more information you have the better the decision.

[ANB723]

I wasn't criticising you, it is more difficult with a foster dog, you have to get permission first. You do need this information though because you are seriously considering adopting him, the more information you have the better the decision.

I didn't think you were Sorry if it came off like that, I have a tendency to over-explain or over-compensate. I completely agree that we need that information before we make a long-term decision which was exactly our thinking.

I think I'm most likely going to switch Cash back to two then, probably only giving him a 1/4c in the morning since he's not really a morning eater. I think it'll be easier to have them on the same schedule, especially right now.

Was he eating when he was in the rescue? If so what was he fed?

There could be many reasons for him not eating, he may not like the food but over a week of not eating I am not surprised you are worried.

This is actually the only dog where I'm not sure what he was fed. It was most likely Eukanuba dry food mixed with canned. They have a lot more donated canned food over dry and almost all of the dogs get canned. I'm not opposed to feeding Angus some canned food every feeding if he will eat it all. We've don't normally feed canned but every dog is different.


Oh and I kinda have a new problem but I feel like I have a good solution too, I would love your opinion (good or bad) on it. I took the boys into my work today for baths and Cash desperately needed a toenail trim. The groomers are wonderful and had offered to help since he literally almost has a heartattack if done at home. I'm also not comfortable with black nails at all so that was helpful. Not to mention Cash's nails are all black and he has 6 dewclaws

Anyways, so we were only there for about an hour and a half. I set up a kennel in the way back where they were no other dogs, mostly to help Angus not get too overwhelmed. My Cash has gotten worst and worst at being reactive and today he took the plunge and tried to fence fight while I walked him past somebody, that pushed me over the edge with being fed up with the problem and pushing me to actively fix it now (not that I never wanted to before). He continued to bark and carry on outside in our runs. Angus wasn't too terrible but barked as well and lunged a few times at other dogs who passed his run outside. He also let out some growls and attempted to lunge while we walked past dogs inside. I never felt like he was out of control and really feel like if I nip it in the butt now that he could be very relaxed and calm. He was also feeding off of Cash which of course didn't help.

So my solution. First, they have officially lost their privileges to be outside in the runs alone. When I have the time(it's still my workplace so work is the priority, I'll probably have the time on break and after I clock out before I leave), I will take each one out separately to the runs. They will remain on the lead with the door shut and I will redirect their focus with sitting and treats for being calm every time a dog gets near or passes. They will also be walked separately through the building so I can have better control and nobody will be feeding off of one another. I think I am also going to invest in some head collars, preferably the halti and a double ended lead for walking, just in case. And if they need extra time outside and I don't have the time to work one-on-one with them, I'll take them out to the big yard area for them to get out a bit. It is far enough from everything and secluded on the other side of the building that I don't think they'll be tempted. I feel really good about my plan and it's not too stressful for me to fit in with work, I think as long as they get some time of positive reinforcement in the runs then that will really contribute and add up to them having impulse control on their own. Hopefully at some point, I can leave them out alone once they've earned my trust for being able to reasonably control themselves.

And just to keep in mind, they are not always going to work with me but in some cases where the latter would be leaving them at home for 8 hrs, I would much rather bring them and it's always a nice thing to be able to put Cash in playgroup when there's room. I will probably just bring Cash sometimes too. I do think it's important that they know how to act regardless and it does push the problem but I'd rather fix the problem as a whole instead of a small portion. I might think that it's alright but then when we get in a situation, it could be completely different. I feel like teaching them to behave nicely at work will lead to them being more well-rounded dogs.

So I would love to hear your thoughts on this as the problem is just getting worst and I want to have the best plan for how to treat it so that they can succeed. I know it'll take a while and might be frustrating at times but I really believe it's worth it.

[Mattie]

Was he eating when he was in the rescue? If so what was he fed?

There could be many reasons for him not eating, he may not like the food but over a week of not eating I am not surprised you are worried.

This is actually the only dog where I'm not sure what he was fed. It was most likely Eukanuba dry food mixed with canned. They have a lot more donated canned food over dry and almost all of the dogs get canned. I'm not opposed to feeding Angus some canned food every feeding if he will eat it all. We've don't normally feed canned but every dog is different.

I sometimes add a little canned food to my dogs food, dogs go more by smell with their food and it changes the smell to them instead of the same boring smell of the dry food. I also soak their food before giving it to them, it saves them from getting dehydrated.

Oh and I kinda have a new problem but I feel like I have a good solution too, I would love your opinion (good or bad) on it. I took the boys into my work today for baths and Cash desperately needed a toenail trim. The groomers are wonderful and had offered to help since he literally almost has a heartattack if done at home. I'm also not comfortable with black nails at all so that was helpful. Not to mention Cash's nails are all black and he has 6 dewclaws

There is a very good thread on nail clipping, think it is in the health section, well worth reading and may help.

Anyways, so we were only there for about an hour and a half. I set up a kennel in the way back where they were no other dogs, mostly to help Angus not get too overwhelmed. My Cash has gotten worst and worst at being reactive and today he took the plunge and tried to fence fight while I walked him past somebody, that pushed me over the edge with being fed up with the problem and pushing me to actively fix it now (not that I never wanted to before). He continued to bark and carry on outside in our runs. Angus wasn't too terrible but barked as well and lunged a few times at other dogs who passed his run outside. He also let out some growls and attempted to lunge while we walked past dogs inside. I never felt like he was out of control and really feel like if I nip it in the butt now that he could be very relaxed and calm. He was also feeding off of Cash which of course didn't help.

You want to cure this not nip it in the bud Has anything happened to your knowledge, to start this? As he goes to work with you something may have happened and you were not told. When a dog behaves like this it is fear, something has to start that fear. Angus will just be copying Cash, this is normal.

When do they do this inside or out? Are they in a corridor, etc? The more information you can give us the better. You know we love long posts.

So my solution. First, they have officially lost their privileges to be outside in the runs alone. When I have the time(it's still my workplace so work is the priority, I'll probably have the time on break and after I clock out before I leave), I will take each one out separately to the runs. They will remain on the lead with the door shut and I will redirect their focus with sitting and treats for being calm every time a dog gets near or passes. They will also be walked separately through the building so I can have better control and nobody will be feeding off of one another. I think I am also going to invest in some head collars, preferably the halti and a double ended lead for walking, just in case. And if they need extra time outside and I don't have the time to work one-on-one with them, I'll take them out to the big yard area for them to get out a bit. It is far enough from everything and secluded on the other side of the building that I don't think they'll be tempted. I feel really good about my plan and it's not too stressful for me to fit in with work, I think as long as they get some time of positive reinforcement in the runs then that will really contribute and add up to them having impulse control on their own. Hopefully at some point, I can leave them out alone once they've earned my trust for being able to reasonably control themselves.

One of my vets took her dogs to work with her, she left them in her van, this van was adapted for her dogs, it was a very strong cage inside filling all of the back of the van. It also had a sliding door at the side which could be left open all day and a whirling air vet on top so the van never got hot. She would take them to the park during her lunch break and give them a good run. These dogs were really happy and contented beause their needs were being met. She wasn't happy about leaving them in the van all day but if left at home they would have been much worse off as there was nobody to see to them. Being inside with time for exercise won't do them any harm as long as their needs are met.

[ANB723]

I sometimes add a little canned food to my dogs food, dogs go more by smell with their food and it changes the smell to them instead of the same boring smell of the dry food. I also soak their food before giving it to them, it saves them from getting dehydrated.

I ended getting Angus some vita gravy. It worked wonderfully, he has been eating all if not most of his food for the past 3 feedings. Although I have to say, I feel a little bad giving Angus gravy and Cash just gets regular 'ole food...but he eats all of his. We might think about canned in the future depending on how this plays out. The soaking is a good tip, especially with all this heat that we've been having.

You want to cure this not nip it in the bud Has anything happened to your knowledge, to start this? As he goes to work with you something may have happened and you were not told. When a dog behaves like this it is fear, something has to start that fear. Angus will just be copying Cash, this is normal.

When do they do this inside or out? Are they in a corridor, etc? The more information you can give us the better. You know we love long posts.

No, not to my knowledge has anything specifically happened. All we know is that he was abandoned at a rural shelter and was put on death-row, the shelter held him for our rescue to go and get them. I think he is definitely afraid of being left and has a small amount of separation anxiety which showed at my work, but Cash was the same way when he first went and now he's confident and happy to go. I try to reward him when he's being quiet and I often try to check up on them. And also I wouldn't think that this would affect his interaction with the other dogs (but that's my thinking, I guess it could all lead with him being insecure), I definitely think something has went wrong of possibly he just wasn't socialized properly? I think it's obvious that he's insecure as he sees all the other dogs.

Okay, so here it goes. We have 4 rows of 20 large sized kennels with top kennels on the back half in the back building(the front building is a little different but they will barely ever stay up there unless the back is closed and there might be a suite available). There is a middle aisle and two side aisles to all of the rows. When they were at pet palace, I put them both in the way back and they barely had any dogs around them and very few that passed. There are always dogs walking in front and behind the kennels and we have a lot of reactive dogs that try to fence (or kennel) fight through the bars. Most of the staff are aware of what the dogs are like and keep and good hold on them while walking through any aisles or placing them next to other dogs outside to avoid confrontation. But coming across the reactive dogs are inevitable. Outside, there are long and a few feet wide runs that are on concrete. They are all directly next to each and dogs can sniff noses through the fence. There are dogs that pass in front of the outside runs as well as that's where the doors are, this is where I have banned my two from going alone because of Cash's barking and Angus's lunging and growling. I don't want either of them to get in the habit of fence fighting or getting any more reactive. They are much worst outside with the reactivity but I could hear barking inside as well if people or dogs walked by. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do with that. Cash is usually put in one the busier sections up front when I bring him because that's where we put all of our daycare dogs and since I'm responsible for cleaning the kennel when I leave, it's easy since the daycare ones always get cleaning anyways and are often always empty because we don't board dogs in that row. Anyways, Cash will bark a little at first if the traffic increases and but will quickly lay down and just watch as dogs go by, I always try to reward him when I see him do this. I would love to be able to cure ( ) his initial reaction as well but I figure as long he gets there soon enough then that's still better than never getting there. The problem also that I have inside with Angus is when I take him to the car to go home or bring him in, while we walk past dogs on the aisle (dogs are only on one side of him), he'll growl as he walks past even if they're not doing anything. I definitely feel like he's insecure as he walks by, every time he growls or starts to pull towards them, I stop and make him sit and insist that he walks off nicely after. He almost seems better if dogs are on both sides but that's probably worst for him if he's insecure and intimidated. Ideally, I would love to walk them separately to and from the car through the building but I'm not comfortable leaving one in the car as it's been so hot. Cash mostly gets reactive while walking when him and Angus are together, if he's just with me, he's fine. When Cash reacts, of course Angus has more of a reason to react himself so it does make me a little tense. Neither of them have gotten out of control but you never know. I bought Angus a head collar and a double leash. I think I will start putting the head collar on when I'm walking him to the car and back just incase, I intend on using the collar most, if not all, of the time though. Hence the double ended leash.

Oh and just for an update. I took them with me from 7am-2pm on Saturday morning and it wasn't half bad. Like I said, I could hear barking when somebody or a dog walked by and Angus cried when I left them after checking but as the day went on, he cried less and got a little better. Again, Cash was like that when I first brought him but is now fine with me leaving him. I'm hoping Angus will get better in time as well as long I keep on rewarding him when he's relaxed and will keep reassuring him that I'll always come back. It seemed to work with I brought a milkbone when I visited them, they were too busy eating the milkbone to care that I had left. I took them both out to run in the big yard area in the morning, they seemed to enjoy it but were distracted by the dogs that were being walked across the yard. I felt bad leaving Angus with Cash as Cash was in his fiesty I'm gonna grab your legs mood but Angus seemed to handle it just fine, that was the first time where Cash really tried to play with him. I might wait until there is much less traffic outside to put them out there again. I took each dog outside separately on a lead with me and they did really well. Cash did wonderful but he thrives off of food so I figured as much. Angus actually spit my treats out so I'll have try a different kind but he did well overall. He growled a few times to Gracie in the run next to him but didn't react or lunge so I praised him a lot for staying calm. I'm little concerned about eventually leaving them out and if the training will stick but for the mean time, I'm happy they're calm.

One of my vets took her dogs to work with her, she left them in her van, this van was adapted for her dogs, it was a very strong cage inside filling all of the back of the van. It also had a sliding door at the side which could be left open all day and a whirling air vet on top so the van never got hot. She would take them to the park during her lunch break and give them a good run. These dogs were really happy and contented beause their needs were being met. She wasn't happy about leaving them in the van all day but if left at home they would have been much worse off as there was nobody to see to them. Being inside with time for exercise won't do them any harm as long as their needs are met.

That's a really nice story. I'm hoping that I can do something similar with these two. I feel as though Cash is at that point, he really enjoys being in the "party" so to speak and loves to be involved. He loves seeing all of the staff and going into playgroup during the day. I am a little concerned with making the problem worst, especially for Angus, but like I said in the long run I feel as though it's helpful to cure it now and really, I would hope that they would be happier with me where they can go out in the yards, get treats, and get social interaction with my co-workers. We all love our own staff dogs and love spoiling them. I worry a lot about doing the right thing and always hope I am. I'm a bit of a worry wart and I think way too much.

[ANB723]

Mattie, I would really love your thoughts if you have the time. You have been so helpful!!