Fighting bitches (split from another post)

[laurah5107]

OK - to start - I am new here and not a troll.
I have 4 dogs - a male lab, small female mix under 18 mos, 9 yr old female Dane and a 6 yr old female Pitbull.
The Pit and the Dane have had 5 very serious fights over the last few years resulting in over $1000 worth of vet bills each time to put the Dane back together. Husband and I have also been bitten by the Dane when breaking up the fights. Dane screams and thrashes about biting at anything. Pit just holds on and never lets go or adjusts her bite. If we let them work it out I have no doubt the Dane would be killed. All the fights are initiated by the Dane who growls at the Pit when walking past each other. And then it's on. Pit has never fought with any other dog and we have many visit us.

My question(s) are: Is there any training methods (beside basic obedience which Pit has but not when challenged). Vet has found dysplasia in Pit but no other problems and Pit takes Rimadyl for hips. I talked to a man who trains dogs for the military who thought he might be able to do something for her if I let him have her for a few months. Cost is prohibitive and I'm not sure what he'll do as he says he doesn't want any visiting during her stay.

Second - How the heck do you break up a dog fight with a Pitbull? They are not like other dog fights. There is no sound from the Pit. She is very calm, teeth embedded in Dane's chest and shoulders. As cruel as it sounds, I've pounded on her as hard as I could, kicked her. I now have a small shovel at the ready to hit her with should it happen again (last fight was a week ago). I've talked to many many Pitbull owners. Most say a break stick but with the Dane thrashing like she does I can't get close enough to get the break stick in the jaws. I've had people suggest cattle prods, tasers, shock collars (but they won't give enough zap according to people who've used them). I've even had people suggest removing her canines to lessen the damage.

I seriously need help. I don't want to get rid of the Pit. She's a lover with people and even wrestles and chases with the other dogs. She is alpha in the pack among the 4 tho the male Lab/Newf really just ignores her and could probably take her down if he wanted to.

Again, NOT A TROLL. Seriously. Just an owner who is at the end of my rope but won't euthanize. WHAT can I do to avoid fights between the two? Or if that's impossible - How can I break up a fight? (And despite what people may say, a Pitbull in a fight is nothing like other dogs).
NOT A TROLL.....

[ladybug1802]

Hi Laura....could you start a new thread with this question please? People are more likely to see it and respond!

[Mattie]

Hi Laura, welcome to the forum, I will as the mod to put this into a new thread, you need help too quickly to wait so will reply.

OK - to start - I am new here and not a troll.
I have 4 dogs - a male lab, small female mix under 18 mos, 9 yr old female Dane and a 6 yr old female Pitbull.
The Pit and the Dane have had 5 very serious fights over the last few years resulting in over $1000 worth of vet bills each time to put the Dane back together. Husband and I have also been bitten by the Dane when breaking up the fights. Dane screams and thrashes about biting at anything. Pit just holds on and never lets go or adjusts her bite. If we let them work it out I have no doubt the Dane would be killed. All the fights are initiated by the Dane who growls at the Pit when walking past each other. And then it's on. Pit has never fought with any other dog and we have many visit us.

It is common for 2 bitches not to get on with each other and fight, with bitches the fight can end up with one of your dogs dead so you need to keep these seperate, preferable not even able to see each other. Never let dogs fight it out, it can do too much damage and one dog can die.

My question(s) are: Is there any training methods (beside basic obedience which Pit has but not when challenged). Vet has found dysplasia in Pit but no other problems and Pit takes Rimadyl for hips. I talked to a man who trains dogs for the military who thought he might be able to do something for her if I let him have her for a few months. Cost is prohibitive and I'm not sure what he'll do as he says he doesn't want any visiting during her stay.

Don't let your Pit go to this trainer, he will be using force etc and will probably make the Pit worse.

Training doesn't make dogs get on with each other, you need very good management to keep these apart at the moment, you may, I only say may, there are no guarentees, get them to not fight when you are arround but I doubt they will every be able to be left on their own again. It just isn't worth taking the chance that you could come home to a dead dog. It really is this serious.

Second - How the heck do you break up a dog fight with a Pitbull? They are not like other dog fights. There is no sound from the Pit. She is very calm, teeth embedded in Dane's chest and shoulders. As cruel as it sounds, I've pounded on her as hard as I could, kicked her. I now have a small shovel at the ready to hit her with should it happen again (last fight was a week ago). I've talked to many many Pitbull owners. Most say a break stick but with the Dane thrashing like she does I can't get close enough to get the break stick in the jaws. I've had people suggest cattle prods, tasers, shock collars (but they won't give enough zap according to people who've used them). I've even had people suggest removing her canines to lessen the damage.

All they will do is make your Pit worse, the safest way is not to let them fight by keeping them apart, your Dane is 9 years old, she is a very old Dane, she may not have much more time left, let her have it in peace by keeping them seperate.

I seriously need help. I don't want to get rid of the Pit. She's a lover with people and even wrestles and chases with the other dogs. She is alpha in the pack among the 4 tho the male Lab/Newf really just ignores her and could probably take her down if he wanted to.

No need to get rid of the Pit as long as you keep these dogs seperated, it is the only way you can protect both dogs, nothing else will work unless you use very strong aversions on BOTH dogs not just the Pit. From what you are saying it is your Dane that starts this so why should your Pit be punished. You Pit is also in pain which will make this worse.

Again, NOT A TROLL. Seriously. Just an owner who is at the end of my rope but won't euthanize. WHAT can I do to avoid fights between the two? Or if that's impossible - How can I break up a fight? (And despite what people may say, a Pitbull in a fight is nothing like other dogs).
NOT A TROLL.....

We know you are not a troll, you haven't asked the troll questions that the other person asked then accused us of not knowing dogs. You have a very serious situation and your dogs must now be kept seperated for the rest of their lives, if you don't you Dane may go to the Rainbow Bridge sooner that she should.

I am sorry for this advice, it is the only advice that can be given in this situation, I am not telling you to get rid of one of them, yes that will stop the fights but you can stop them by keeping these dogs apart. It will mean very very consistant management, but when you are in this situation very quickly that management becomes part of your day.

If you can give us a run down of your dogs normal day, including food, training, exercise etc. as much information as you can give, also a rough layout of your home, we may be able to give more advice that will help.

[jakesmom]

Hi Laura,

Wow I don't think I'd like to be you, breaking up a fight between and Dane and a pitbull - or any other dog fight for that matter. It was bad enough breaking up a bad fight between our Dalmation and my daughters Staffordshire Bull Terrier.
Luckily because the staffie is not that big my son-in-law managed to pick her up.


But I have given a great deal of thought to this as my GSD seriously attacked someone. Anyway, having thought about it I decided the only safe way was to try and grab their back legs and lift them off the floor -(without the power of their back legs, at least they couldn't tug a section of flesh out)- but I appreciate this is easier said than done.

But then I was researching some sites on the internet and came across this http://leerburg.com/pdf/howtobreakupdogfight.pdf

Please note Laura - I do not agree with the training methods on this site, but nonetheless this article was very informative.

As for the aggression between your dogs, I wonder what the trainers think or whether this is a case of b itches just never going to get on, and one of them will need rehoming or they will need keeeping apart forever.

[Mattie]

I find a stick put through the mouth to lever the mouth open is the safest way to break up a fight, the dog can bite on the stick as much as he wants but he won't bite you. If you get hold of the back legs and pull, if the dog has hold of the other dog you can cause a lot of damage because the teeth will rip the other dog. Many dogs are quite agile enough to swing round and bite you, they will be hyped up and won't realise they are biting you.

[jakesmom]

It's all explained in the article Mattie. You do not drag the dog by his back legs, you lift his legs off the floor and keep turning yourself so he cannot bite you.

[Nettle]

I can tell you now that the method this site suggests is not going to break up many fights and certainly not one with a pitbull involved - they bite above their weight and as you have discovered are not keen to let go.

As has been said:

No training whatesoever will make these two get on

The Dane is near the end of her life and will be happier to be kept in your home apart from the Pit.

Keep them separate - commit to it 100% - this is the only way when b itches take against each other. If not, one WILL kill the other.

When your Dane has crossed rainbow bridge, do NOT get another dog. Your Pit will be more than happy to have you to herself. They are 'people' dogs not 'dog' dogs.

And don't feel bad or let anyone make you feel bad about this - this does happen sometimes and is very common between two female dogs of any size and background.

[jakesmom]

Nettle

Are spayed b itches just as bad as unspayed b itches.

[Mattie]

Can be, as you know Bonnie was attacked by both Tilly and Dolly a few weeks ago, there has never been any sign of this, I am not perfect especially reading a dog's body language but am better than most dog owners. Dolly will have started it because she always goes for the legs if any of the other dogs upset her and Tilly will join in to back her if she can. Thankfully it was her legs, with most dogs it is the throat.

Bonnie used to have a go at Ellie when she had breathing problems, it was the first sign that there was a problem, she would have killed her I suspect because Ellie would have been suffering.

All my bitches are spayed, I will always get a b itch done but depending on the dog and any health issues, I won't always get a dog neutered.

[Nettle]

Yes, spayed or unspayed, b itches are far more serious about fighting than male dogs.

[laurah5107]

Hi. I appreciate the information and the support shown by you all.

Since the last fight we've kept the dogs apart. My husband and I both work from the house and have been alternating the dog that will stay upstairs with us. When we're all downstairs we have the pitbull on a 4 ft leash tied around the leg of the coffee table (limestone slab - heaviest darn table I've ever seen). So the pit can sit on one side and the Dane can lie on her couch on the otherside and no interaction.

The Dane keeps a nervous lookout at the pit but has stupidly walked by her within a foot or two. Pit acts as if nothing ever happened - back to best friends sleeping together on the couch in her mind I guess. Dane is spooky and I'm afraid she'll growl in fear and ......

Husband says that this is not going to continue, it's too much work. I remind him that my Dane girl will not last that much longer (my previous male dane didn't make it to his 6th b-day). I feel bad that the pit cannot walk around the house freely and gets caged alot. We cage all the dogs except the Dane when we're gone.

I've started a rigorous re-training program with all 4 dogs. The male forgot everything when he went to college with my son, the new youngster has the attention span of a gnat, the Dane feels that "heel" is beneath her. But the pit is a star. Even will sit/stay so I can take her working collar off despite the two other dogs leaping and jumping for a turn to go out and work.

I've also reviewed the dynamics of the pack. All are spayed/neutered. My male Dane was massive and developed a major aggression problem in the last year of his life (I think from too many Rabies vaccines- but that's for another time). The only dog he could tolerate was a female std poodle. When he died I got the current Dane and the Poodle was a benevolent leader. We adopted (daughter brought home) the pit (about 4 mos old) and the male lab (about 3 mos old). And the pack was serene.
A few years down the line the Pit had matured, the Poodle was dying of cancer (unbeknownst to us but probably know to the dogs). The Pit made her move for alpha, having a single "argument" with the Poodle (noisy but only injury was a puncture in the Poodle's ear). My theory is that the Dane thought she was next in line and so challenged the Pit over some spilled kibble. That was the first fight. Ever since, there has been a strained relationship between the two.

I think of the Pit as the Cruel Dictator of the pack. She uses fear to keep everyone in line (except the lab/newf mix - a truly huge individual with a personality like Dug in the movie "Up"

I am going to get a pair of the huge gloves that the animal control folks wear and possibly one of the nooses on a pole. If I can noose the Dane I can use the break stick on the Pit.

Pitbulls are such lovers with people but when I take her into Petsmart people give her alot of space. I'm careful with her around other dogs but I've taken her to a dog park on leash and she never even growled at other dogs. It's a shame that they are such good fighters.

[Mattie]

I've started a rigorous re-training program with all 4 dogs. The male forgot everything when he went to college with my son, the new youngster has the attention span of a gnat, the Dane feels that "heel" is beneath her. But the pit is a star. Even will sit/stay so I can take her working collar off despite the two other dogs leaping and jumping for a turn to go out and work.

What is a working collar please?

A few years down the line the Pit had matured, the Poodle was dying of cancer (unbeknownst to us but probably know to the dogs). The Pit made her move for alpha, having a single "argument" with the Poodle (noisy but only injury was a puncture in the Poodle's ear). My theory is that the Dane thought she was next in line and so challenged the Pit over some spilled kibble. That was the first fight. Ever since, there has been a strained relationship between the two.

Forget a dog being alpha or top dog, or leader etc. you don't have a pack of dogs you have a group. Apack of dogs like a pack of wolves is mum, dad, and offspring, in other words a family just as we have families, mum and dad are the leaders and the older pups/children help take care of the younger ones. Unlike humans dogs kick their pups out when they are reaching maturity.

With a group of dogs it depends on what a dog things is top priority, one dog may have a ball as a top priority but puts food at or near the bottom, another will have food as top priority and a ball near or at the bottom. The dog who has the ball as top priority is leader of the ball, the dog that has food as a priority is leader of the food. My staffy is leader of the pain in the butt dogs.

Have a look at all these clips viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2959 they are from Jean Donaldson and may help you read your dogs body language, they really helped me with my dogs. The more you can read your dogs and understand them the easier it will be for you.

I think of the Pit as the Cruel Dictator of the pack. She uses fear to keep everyone in line (except the lab/newf mix - a truly huge individual with a personality like Dug in the movie "Up"

You Pit is not the leader, he is more of a wannabee, leaders don't need to rule by dictatorship.

I am going to get a pair of the huge gloves that the animal control folks wear and possibly one of the nooses on a pole. If I can noose the Dane I can use the break stick on the Pit.

Does this mean that you are going to allow the fighting to continue? It is much better for you and your dogs if you don't allow any fighting, each time they fight they are reinforcing this behaviour and it will just get worse and worse as time goes on, you will end up with a dead dog, killed by the other one, if you allow this.

Pitbulls are such lovers with people but when I take her into Petsmart people give her alot of space. I'm careful with her around other dogs but I've taken her to a dog park on leash and she never even growled at other dogs. It's a shame that they are such good fighters.

When Pitbulls are brought up with other dogs and learn how to be a dog they don't attack other dogs, the are dogs first, Pitbulls second. They have been bred to have a lot of muscle and be strong, that doesn't mean that they are naturally aggressive, this can be counteracted if they are brought up right. You Pit was reared with other dogs, I doubt he is as aggressive with other dogs as Pit brought up on his own.

[laurah5107]

The collar I use to do training in is a martingale collar. It tightens up but not like a choke chain. The pit bulls neck is so much bigger than her head that regular collars slide over her. I want to get Halti or Gentle Leader type gear to fit everyone but the stores didn't have the sizes I needed (4 different ones) so I ordered them. But right now, martingale collar.

I watched not only Jean Donaldson's videos but a number of others about aggression etc. (Note: I have Jean's books "Fight" and "Mine". Love em). The difference with my dog (the pit) is that there is no display when these fights happen. She does do the oblique look and the raised lip when she wants one of the dogs to back off. But those moments usually don't result in any confrontation and when they do it is one of the mostly noise and posturing fights with no blood shed but the other dog chastised.

With the Dane and the Pit I've seen nothing to indicate a problem. Just a low brief growl from the Dane, which could also be interpreted by a human as a groan. The pit does not make any noise, she does not do the lifted lip, pin the ears, bristle the back. She goes from looking completely at ease walking through the house to a quick grip on the Dane's chest. Her bite goes from one side of the Dane's chest to the other. As the Dane struggles, the damage comes with the tearing. In the videos I watched I saw nothing that resembles these fights with the Dane.

We have been diligently keeping the dogs separated and we are hoping and praying that we have seen the last of the fights. But ---- I still want to be prepared in case something happens (the Dane and my little dog can open all the french doors from the backyard into the house. We've begun locking them all when we let dogs out but it is possible someone will forget and the pit and the Dane will end up inside together. I hope this doesn't happen but better to be prepared).

We got this dog at about 3 months. My daughter found her trucking down the side of a country road in front of the horse farm. She dropped it off at my house and headed out for 3 weeks on the road with her horses. By the time she got back I was too fond of the pup to give it back. From the time we got her I made sure she had lots of socializing - puppy classes, dog parks, swims at neighbors pools. Even went to a couple high school football games. No idea about her lineage (if the parents were bred to be more aggressive by some macho idiot who needs a fighting dog to make him feel manly). But with us she's been with canine brothers and sisters, cousins, etc. And with these dogs she will give various behavioral signals that she wants them to back off or that they're playing too rough.

It all seems to be JUST WITH THIS DOG, my dear old Dane.

I'm going to continue with the remedial training for all the dogs. I fear that even if I get the immediate and unmoving down/stay from my Pit in normal situations it will all go to hell in a handbasket if the Dane pisses her off again.

If you've got ideas for different training collars or aids let me know. I'm going to continue watching the various videos on YouTube about dog aggression.
My Dane is currently hiding in my upstairs office with me and the Pit is locked out in the yard with the other two nut-dogs. Sometimes that old saying "Can't live with em, can't live without em" really applies.

[emmabeth]

The Dane is elderly, and will have illness and some levels of pain (no matter what you do to address that, we can never ben 100% sure so its best to assume all elderly dogs, especially large breeds, will have some underlying pain and sickness issues).

Your pit b itch wishes to eliminate her from the group.

Sick animals, old animals within a group especially where that group is held together by force, effectively (because they do not choose who is in the group, you do, not because you physically smush them together!), cause anxiety in fit, young animals and it is natures horrible, cruel way to weed these out and get rid.

In a feral situation these two would avoid one another or the pit would drive the Dane away and prevent her approaching the group or using the resources you provide. Because they are all stuck in a house/yard/family together she cannot do that and the Dane cannot keep her distance.

This is not 'aggression' as such, this is not the Pit communicating something subtle and the Dane not listening and that is why there is no warning and no language to read, this is one dog trying to get rid of another for her own reasons which you really will not change. As the Dane gets older and weaker this will get worse.

I would keep these two seperate at all times or the worst is going to happen and I do not think any amount of breaking sticks and heavy gloves is going to help.

[Nettle]

I endorse every word of that.