Need Semi Serious Help!

[kitdragon2000]

I need help... And please bear with me, theres a LOT going on...

For the people who dont really know me, I work at a vet clinic. One of our clients was an elderly women, who had this fun, work into your heart older doxie who she LOVED! His Names "swinger" (And if you saw this women, it was just so funny think Teny Tiny little women, mabye 75 pounds soaking wet. with this dog named swinger, her hair always up, always little bit of makeup on...) But sadly his mom passed away, now swinger about a year before his mom passes away was diagnosed with cancer in his spleen and liver. push come to shove, poor swinger was at the clinic i work at for atleast 2 weeks while his mom was at the hospital, then the daughter called, told us him mom had passed away and whoever wanted swinger could take him...
I know, Horrible for him! I cant imagion what he's been going through, so he's at the clinic for a week or so, then the owner takes him home, less then a week later, i come in and Swingers at the clinic, he was Hit by a car!! So poor swinger has not only lost his mom, never able to say goodbye to her, he's been moved around twice, and hit by a car! So Now on top of the liver cancer (We had removed the spleen taking away that cancer) he has a broken pelvis...
Now at the begining of this swinger was a great dog! he loved most people, you could do anything you wanted with him, and it didnt matter. only thing he hated was his nails being done... after the HBC he's gotten more agressive, most of the people at the clinic he doesnt like anymore, and most co workers dont like him...
but he still has been doing good with me, i know part of it is he's still in pain, (he was moving on his hips mabye a week after he was hit... sometimes i HATE where i work... ) its been a month i think more like 2 since he was hit, he'll let most people go near him (there are a few he still growls and snapps at, but honestly i dont blame him, the 2 ppl he does it to are Extreamly mean) he has attached to the office manager, she's there mon through thursday. and he's done ok, weekends are the worst since she isnt there, but he does good with me so it hasnt been concerning. but he cant stay at the clinic, its not good for him at all. I (hopefully) have a home for him, but the only thing is she wont be able to take him for another week to two, (she's in switserlend at the moment (I know i spelt it wroung sorry)) part of the problem is, Jane (the office manager) is gone this whole week, and already swinger has Horribly regressed! He Even snapped at me!! And the Dr!!
So I know it may not be the best for him at the moment, but i brought him home, we have someone here all the time, its accessibe to doxies especially, and hopefully a consistant enviorment will help. and he has already done a LOT better! he's ok with me leaving, he sleeps in bed with me and Koda, (my other male doxie who i make sure to give him his own time)

the only problem, is he got agresive today and almost bite my daughter. What happened is he was sleeping in my lap with my other dogs, my daughter (she's 2.5y but already knows how to be careful with doggies) came over, and started kissing heads, she does that to wake them up. when she got to swinger i watched really close, slipps a hand over his head so if he did get mad i could just push his head back down, keep her safe. He let her kiss him, but then she went to pet him... as she moved her hand over his head he snapped up out of no where and got her finger (She's ok, was spooked but all better little tiny bruise on a finger. we had a talk about her leaving swinger alone) after i was able to grab him, he was still trying to get my hand, but iv worked with agressive aniamls at work i was able to get up with him and i pushed him in the crate, to settle him down, keep him safe, and take care of emily, who at that moment was crying and still in shock. afterwords i let him chill in the crate and thought about it, atleast with me, he's only been agressive when he's laying down. and either someone goes to pick him up, or to take him out. (same thing at work, atleast with me...) I think part of it is the pain, so he is on pain medication, but i think the other thing is he's getting spooked when he wakes up. not really remembering whats going on for a minuet???

i mean when he's awake he has let emily handle his mouth, his ears, even touch his paws, his tail. so it was a Really big suprise when he did this!! I really am convinced its him waking up, so my question is, 1. do u agree since thats the only time he's reacted here? 2. and the big one is, How do i fix this??????
Please I really need help... If im going to place him with this owner, i would like to tell her exactly what shes getting into, and mabye prepair him for the move?? but i know i need to figure this out first.

Thank you in advance for the help.

[emmabeth]

He is in pain and he is really confused and mixed up at the moment with so many changes in his life.

THe on top of that your daughters manner of waking up dogs is, I am afraid to say, possibly one of THE most dangerous I have ever heard of and I think you are EXTREMELY lucky shes not been severely bitten in the face yet! Honestly that has to stop, she is far too young to realise the dangers, shes SO young she actually would not realise that a dog growling meant back off, and she would at her age, read a snarly face as a 'smile', ie, a happy good thing!

Please stop putting your daughter in danger by allowing this - a great many perfectly happy sane sensible dogs do not like being woken up with physical contact, let alone a childs (or adults!) face right in theirs!

I do not think ANY of this dogs behaviour is indicative of a dodgy temperament at all, this is a dog in pain and a dog grieving, anxious, upset. He needs kind words and space and to be left alone rather than pushed into the thick of things. We all WANT to cuddle and take animals onto our laps and kiss them to amke them feel better but animals just DONT like this naturally. Some learn to like it and this comes more easily to some breeds than others, most merely tolerate it when they must and avoid when they can, and some will NEVER like it.

So, give him space and time. Make sure EVERY interaction as far as is possible is rewarding for him (ie, coupled with treats/toys) and do not push him into anything that does not HAVE to happen.

Prevent your daughter from having acess to him and change the way she greets dogs, especially sleeping dogs (mostly that will have to be by prevention as shes a little young yet to explain it fully to her, in her world hugs and kisses are nice and thats as it should be).

Once he is better, and he goes to his new home I would explain to the new owner he must be given time and understanding and not pushed into anything, none of this is his fault.

[kitdragon2000]

I know none is his fault, and i have been working on emily with waking up animals. shes more stuborn then the dogs, and i havent had a lot of luck with some of the things i have tried with her... but no, im not mad at him for what he did, im just trying to understand him, and figure out if anyone else has any ideas, and can help. because he does this with more then just my daughter. he's done it at work, and i know part is greiving, and all the change, so i was wondering what else i could do for him. he is one of those "needy" for lack of a better word... dog, he is always wanting to be in a lap, right next to someone, and he does like food, so i was thinking mabye treating him every time he woke up good? but i wasnt sure about that idea. and i do think i did the right thing bringing him home, he has done a lot better here then what he was doing at my job.

[ladybug1802]

Yep....when I read that part of your post that descriobed your daughter kissing dogs on thehead to wake them up, I let out an audible "noooo"! If someone tried to do that to my dog to 'wake him up' they would get bitten in the face...no question....and it would be out of fear. I think you have done alovely thing for Swinger, bringing him home and trying to make him happier and less stressed, and I thihnk it would be fine if he is just left to his own accord. If he wants to lie on your lap...great. if he doesnt, let him go where he wants. Nobody should approach him at the moment, he should be left alone to come to people as he wishes. I would keep your daughter away from him, and stop her from ever doing the kissing head to wake dogs up...any dogs, ever! When I was little, I adored dogs, and one day in the street with my mum and grandma I went over to a dog tied outside a shop and put my arms around him!!! Long story short I now have a faint scar down my nose as he bit my nose open and I needed stitches!! My own fault obviously, but I am sure at the time I thought I was just showing a lovely fluffy doggie how much I liked him! For th dog....not seen the same way at all and was very scary for him.

He, as you know, has been through a LOT - I feel so sorry for him. I cant believe the owner's daughter didnt want to take him...how sad. And now after his car accident, he has been in a lot of pain and has come to realise probably being in the vets equals pain, so people in there, in his eyes, cant be trusted. He may like being in your lap because he trusts you, and at the moment in his life he has lost al the people he knew and trusted, so it is all a mess for him. So because he trusts you, when he is in your lap stop anyone else, especially your daughter, from touching him.

And you say some of the staff are "extremely mean"....what do you mean? I hope they do not treat the animals badly as, if so, you should report them and they should NOT be working in there. All staff in a vet should be caring and sympathetic.....people trust their beloved pet's to their care on a daily basis.

[Sunnydasie]

I have always heard "let a sleeping dog lie" but this goes for any animal!! Growing up on the farm that is one thing I was always told is not to mess with the animals while they were sleeping. Heck I didn't even mess with my Dad when he was sleeping because he would kick and swing if you touched him while he was sleeping.

So never let her do that!

[Mattie]

the only problem, is he got agresive today and almost bite my daughter. What happened is he was sleeping in my lap with my other dogs, my daughter (she's 2.5y but already knows how to be careful with doggies) came over, and started kissing heads, she does that to wake them up.

She is 2.5 years old, still a baby she may be careful with dogs most of the time but at her age her concentration is virtually nil. Why is she allowed to wake the dogs up? Why is she allowed to do this to dogs? By allowing this you are setting your daughter up to be bitten, it isn't the dog's fault your daughter was bitten but your's for allowing this. You are asking too much of your daughter and your dogs. Yes I am angry, no child or dog should be treated like this.

when she got to swinger i watched really close, slipps a hand over his head so if he did get mad i could just push his head back down, keep her safe. He let her kiss him, but then she went to pet him... as she moved her hand over his head he snapped up out of no where and got her finger (She's ok, was spooked but all better little tiny bruise on a finger. we had a talk about her leaving swinger alone) after i was able to grab him, he was still trying to get my hand, but iv worked with agressive aniamls at work i was able to get up with him and i pushed him in the crate, to settle him down, keep him safe, and take care of emily, who at that moment was crying and still in shock

.

Why was your daughter allowed to do this? Why was both your daughter and Swinger not protected from this?

This is your fault this has happened, there is nobody else to blame.

I feel so sorry for your daughter and your dogs.

afterwords i let him chill in the crate and thought about it, atleast with me, he's only been agressive when he's laying down. and either someone goes to pick him up, or to take him out. (same thing at work, atleast with me...) I think part of it is the pain, so he is on pain medication, but i think the other thing is he's getting spooked when he wakes up. not really remembering whats going on for a minuet???

This happened because you, knowing he is in pain and is a sick dog allowed this to happen, he has had to protect himself because there is nobody to pretect him. Poor dog, he has been through so much and now has to behave like stuffed, cuddly dog.

i mean when he's awake he has let emily handle his mouth, his ears, even touch his paws, his tail. so it was a Really big suprise when he did this!! I really am convinced its him waking up, so my question is, 1. do u agree since thats the only time he's reacted here? 2. and the big one is, How do i fix this??????
Please I really need help... If im going to place him with this owner, i would like to tell her exactly what shes getting into, and mabye prepair him for the move?? but i know i need to figure this out first.

Why is your daughter allowed to handle dogs mouths, ears, paws etc.? You have been exceeding lucky that your daughter has not been seriously bitten by a dog.

DO NOT ALLOW A CHILD OF THIS AGE TO APPROACH A SLEEPING DOG.

Do not allow a child of this age play with a dog's ears, eyes, mouth, nostrils, paw and tail.

Do not allow a child of this age to do anything to a dog unless you are with them not even stroke them PROPERLY

I am so angry that you put both your daughter and the dogs in this position, if you had protected them properly in the first place you wouldn't need to ask for help, then you want to fix it. This may sound harsh but if you want your daughter to treat a dog like this buy her a stuffed dog, she can then do what she wants in safety without the risk of being bitten and your dogs will be able to live their lives naturally without running the risk of being killed for biting your daugher.

[runlikethewind]

Completely agree with all that Mattie has said. Please don't get defensive when you read everyone's replies. Accept them as straight talking advice. Does this new owner understand the dog's illnesses, pain and does this new owner have children?

[Beau&Luke'sMomn]

Poor Swinger. He has had a bad run of luck. I am glad you care enough to help him. Good luck with the placement with his new Mom!!

[kitdragon2000]

You know what, i did not put this all on here to get yelled about because my daughter had a little mishap with swinger, as i have said Multipule times now, i do NOT Blame him And i have been working with my daughter, She is used to our dogs, Who DO enjoy her kissing them on the head, they give kisses back, This post was NOT About how i raise my daughter, but about opinions on how i could HELP the DOG with everything he has been going through and it seems that all I am getting is 1. Let him lie, and 2. how horrible a mother i am for letting my daughter "wake the dogs up." 1. To just letting the dog lie, when he is in my lap, you know what i have other things that happen, INCLUDING a 2.5 year old who wants to be in my lap and help. I was trying to see if anyone else has any ideas on how to reintroduce to swinger that not all people are Bad. Because i KNOW he is a good dog, and that he Has been through a lot. and 2. if anyone has had a 2 year old, i would like to see you say you have done everything right with them, it was a fast moment, and i had them as "safe" as possible as i was trying to get emily to leave, You know, the few times i have posted, i have Not gotten a lot of help so much as a Lot Of Flamming, or attacking on me. None of you truly know what was going on, i just said it because if the fact that it was waking him up, he has tried to do it to multipule people, Everyone else an adult, and i was TRYING to see if anyone had any ideas WHY. NOT to be Yelled at that I put my daughter in to much danger. As I said, the rest of our dogs, are perfectly fine with her, were are working on differences between our doggies and other peoples doggies, but i dont have a lot of help in this. So I am not sorry that when i see multipule people attacking the way i have my daughter working with my aniamls. SO YES I Will be upset, and i may not post here again, like anyone would truly care...

and no the new owner does not have children and that is part of the reason why i am trying to get him To her. and Yes she does know about his problems, it would not be right of me to try and place a dog without telling them what all is wroung and good with them. and yes i have talked to the managment about the way people treat animals, becfause some of them is neglect, but the managment sucks and they dont care, and that is part of the reason i am Leaving! But i have been helping the animals for as long as i am there.

And thanks for Reading the whole post guys... HE HAS DONE THIS WITH MULTIPULE PEOPLE!!! NOT JUST 1 PERSON! and THAT is why i posted here, to try and help figure out why he is doing this, mostly when he is waking up. that way when i place him in the home i can say this is one of his problems, but doing this has helped and will continue to help.

Next time read everything and let it all sink in before you start yelling at someone.

[emmabeth]

Right,

No one here is having a go at you for the sake of being mean. Everyone here has your dogs (and your daughters!) best interests at heart and NOTHING more.

However our experiences tell us that very small children waking dogs up by kissing them on the head/face is a recipe for disaster and we would be downright negligent NOT to point this out. So now we have pointed it out - it is entirely your choice to allow this to continue and it is you who will be responsible if or when your daughter is permanently facially scarred.

Swinger has VERY good reasons for no longer liking people messing with him, whether that interaction is necessary, kind or something that is going to be painful, he does not want it.

The ONLY way to get him to want it again is to ensure that EVERYTHING that happens to him is something HE thinks is nice. Not what you think he OUGHT to like, or your daughter wants to do because she knows no better. It does not matter what our human intentions are, it only matters how the dog percieves them.

Right now Swinger percieves some kinds of human contact as potentially horrid, likely to cause him pain or just plain frightening.

I am NOT going to tell you that you did the right thing here because you didn't - how would it help you if I lied?

You held his head down so she could kiss him, KNOWING he does not like people in his face when hes lying down, knowing that hes in pain and has already reacted aggressively to a number of people. You are lucky she did not get bitten in the face and this should prove to you that your actions in attempting to prevent him from biting her as she kissed are actually NOT fast enough to stop him had he tried. If you did have quick enough reactions hewouldnt have been able to bite her hand!

It is good you didn't yell at him and yes, the only sensible action youc ould have taken after the bite was to crate him whilst you sorted out your daughter, i agree with that completely.

From here on in, Swinger needs to NOT be petted by anyone when he is on your lap (i would think ideally he wouldnt get on your lap in the first place but if he likes it there and seeks it out fair enough).

All interactions need to be kept short and sweet, and be with adults OR children old enough to follow instructions and do only as asked (ie, over 8 at least!) who are supervised by an adult. Every interaction needs to be super rewarding for Swinger, so involving food treats or toys he really likes (not cuddles or kisses or being picked up which he doesn't like).

Long term with his new owners as has already been said, he needs time and patience and plenty of reward associated with allt he 'normal' events in life he has to deal with. No picking up, no cuddling, no kissing.

[Sunnydasie]

Kit,

I know it can be a lot to have people question what you do and it can be very over whelming trust me I know! viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10948 If this link does not work look for the post in dog training advice under knocked my 3 year old down. See I am not the greatest mom either!! But after I read and re read my post and all the replys I realized that they can only respond to the information that they are given. And since everyone here seems to very caring not only towards animals but children as well. Yes they are not there and no they don't see how your other animals are but out of experience with children as well as animals they have given you some information. Granted it may not be what you wanted to hear and you don't have to take anything that I say or they say to heart. But I do not believe that they meant you any harm or ill will in what they said.

I did tell you to let the sleeping dogs lie because people just like animals can be startled during certain part of their sleep pattern. And just like my dad they can forget where they are and what is around them and they will panic when touched during sleep. My Dad is a great man and I love him with all my heart but he still kicked me when I was younger because I touched his foot while he was asleep. Granted he felt terrible but I was quickly reminded that I wasn't to do that any way. Due to time in the military and mean friends my Dad, flips out when touched while sleeping. However I never served in the military but I have been known to swing or even scream when touched when I am asleep. It really depends on where I am in my sleep pattern or what I am dreaming about.

Yeah I know you are thinking what this has to do with dogs. But watch your dogs when they sleep. During REM sleep or when dogs are dreaming and yes they do dream. My dog looks like she is running sometimes and she shakes. During this stage of sleep dogs just like humans can become startled. Dogs can bite maybe right now you daughter is typical 2, loud and crazy. So chances are they know she is coming so they kinda wake up. But today everything was quite and swinger didn't know she was coming and snapped when he was touched. I am sure if your other dogs get startled when sleeping that they may jump when all is quite and they hear a big noise. And it sounds like swinger may be having bad dreams since everything is suckie for him right now.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that everyone here cares or they wouldn't have even bothered to reply. Don't take what they say personally as an insult to you as a mother or as a dog lover. Take it like you take all advice with a grain of salt to be mixed into life only to enhance it and make it better.

[ladybug1802]

Please dont take offence at what we have written.....if you re-read things back you will see that it is all constructive advice. You asked how to make it better for him.....and after what he has been through, the best way to makw it better for him, and make him see people arent all bad, IS to leave him bed and not have people bother him at the moment. WHile it may be fine for your current dogs to have your daughter kiss them on the head, what we are all saying is that for a new, rescue dog, who has had his life turned around AND is in a lot of pain, this is a very bad idea....as you have seen. So we are not telling you anything you do not already know in that respect.

Also, when you re-read it, I hope you will see that precisely because of the fact we are all saying it is a bad thing for yourdaughter to do this, that we do honestly mean it, and we are not 'attacking you' but trying to help.

Isnt it better we do give proper comments and advice which will help you?

[Moobear]

hi kit

Please stay on here - l think we all know from reading through the posts, that people can be very vocal when they feel something is wrong. Ok its all over with now, and its time for some positive forward thinking posts. Poor Swinger has been through so much and l am sure that once he is settled in his new home and realises that he is not going anyway, he will setttle down a lot and then you and his new owner can start helping him with postiive training.

One thing l want to know is the liver cancer that Swinger has - is it giving him pain or is it just the pain of the car accident. I think when an animal is teminally ill and has all this going on with him it is the quality of life that is important. If Swinger has to live with pain for the rest of his life - maybe its not a good idea to let him suffer wspecially as he is distressed with the loss of his previous owner.

Anyway huggs to you as you are trying to do the best for him and you deserve to have support for doing that. I think the other people who are possibly being mean to Swinger should definately lose their jobs as they are not real animal lovers at all and have access to distressed dogs which shouldn't be allowed.

You take care now and keeep us up to date with Swinger's life - he will be in my prayers tonight too xxx Moo

[Moobear]

PS l have to say that l am not the best person to help with training dogs - l am too much of "they're my babies" and l have plenty of problems myself with my mutts. Do take the positive out of all the posts. Also look on You Tube as Turid Rugaas (not sure of the spelling there) has a video on calming signals on there, which might help. Huggs to you xxx Moo

[Mattie]

if anyone has had a 2 year old, i would like to see you say you have done everything right with them, it was a fast moment, and i had them as "safe" as possible as i was trying to get emily to leave,

I have raised 3 sons as well as run a pre-school playgroup for children from 2 years old to 5 years old so I do know children of this age. You may be taking care to teach your child but she is a toddler, you allow her to do things with you when your back is turned she can still do this to the dogs. With you not there she won't be as gentle because at her age she doesn't have the coordination to do it without mummy as with mummy. You are expecting too much of your daughter. You are not allow, yes I have made mistakes but never done this with my sons, I wouldn't take the chance of my dog, who adored children and was really good with them, being hurt and biting out of pain and/or fear.

You know, the few times i have posted, i have Not gotten a lot of help so much as a Lot Of Flamming, or attacking on me. None of you truly know what was going on, i just said it because if the fact that it was waking him up, he has tried to do it to multipule people, Everyone else an adult, and i was TRYING to see if anyone had any ideas WHY. NOT to be Yelled at that I put my daughter in to much danger.

We don't pussyfoot round on here, we do try to be honest with our advice, sometimes as in this case it isn't what people want to hear. We are here to help you protect both your daughter and your dog because we are not emotionally involved in trying to do the right thing. Yes I have attacked you in this but my thought is for your daughter, I would never forgive myself if she was scared for life because I wasn't honest with what I said. You are her mother not me, it is your decision not mine, if you want to put her into danger that is your decision but you are putting her in danger.

As I said, the rest of our dogs, are perfectly fine with her, were are working on differences between our doggies and other peoples doggies, but i dont have a lot of help in this. So I am not sorry that when i see multipule people attacking the way i have my daughter working with my aniamls. SO YES I Will be upset, and i may not post here again, like anyone would truly care...

Are they fine with this or are they just tollerating it because they have to? Watch their body language to see if they are enjoying it or tollerating it.

I have put into bold something that is really important, you are working on differences between your dogs and other peoples, that is good but please do not be over confident with your dogs, you are not being fair on them if you do.

and no the new owner does not have children and that is part of the reason why i am trying to get him To her. and Yes she does know about his problems, it would not be right of me to try and place a dog without telling them what all is wroung and good with them. and yes i have talked to the managment about the way people treat animals, becfause some of them is neglect, but the managment sucks and they dont care, and that is part of the reason i am Leaving! But i have been helping the animals for as long as i am there.

Nobody is saying you are not doing a good job apart from your daughter, he obviously doesn't like what was done, you have answered your own question it was how he was woken up, many dogs do not like to be woken up suddenly with our without a kiss. I always tell people if they want to wake their dogs up first make a noise, sing, dance, whatever to wake your dog up first, then you can interact with them. To many children have nasty scars on their faces because of the way they woke their dog up, the dogs paid with their lives, they were pts as aggressive.

And thanks for Reading the whole post guys... HE HAS DONE THIS WITH MULTIPULE PEOPLE!!! NOT JUST 1 PERSON! and THAT is why i posted here, to try and help figure out why he is doing this, mostly when he is waking up. that way when i place him in the home i can say this is one of his problems, but doing this has helped and will continue to help.

Next time read everything and let it all sink in before you start yelling at someone.

I took on a dog similar last November, Bertie, you can read his story and how I turned him round at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9271&p=64353&hilit=Bertie#p64353 If I hadn't taken Bertie he would have been pts for aggression, he had been through several foster homes, all sent him back because they were so frightened of him, now he is with one of my neighbours having a lovely life.

I turned Bertie round by having a house lead on him so I never had to go for his collar, I just picked the lead up and lead him. I never challenged him or accepted his challenges, if he growled he was telling me something so I walked away, he never got away with anything because I always found another way to get what I wanted. I used my brain and not my brawn to turn Bertie round. If I can do this so can you but please keep your daughter away from him.

You are too close, because of this you can't see the danger you are putting your daughter in, your daughter is a person in her own right, she thinks for herself and will do things for herself, it doesn't matter how well behaved she is there will be times she will do the unexpected and may get badly bitten for it. As you can see from higher up I do understand children of her age, I have had a lot through my hands when I was running the pre-school playgroup, I also know how unpredictable even the best behave child can be.