Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

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H-Man
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Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by H-Man »

Hi, this post might be a bit long and rambling, but I'm so frustrated and feel helpless. There's a few big problems too, so hopefully at the very least you'll enjoy reading it and trying to figure out a solution, because I'm stumped. I don't know where to go next.

I posted on here a while ago about my Rottweiler puppy, Omar. Well, he's now a year old, but we no longer own him. Let me try and explain breifly. He was owned by my housemate and I, but me and him moved into my parents house as they'd moved out and the rent would be cheaper etc. But anyway, the plan was we would bring him with us, he'd have a nice big garden and we'd slowly introduce him to my cat, who was living with my parents still in house. But because she's old and doesn't get on well with other animals (stops eating etc.) we decided the best thing would be to sell him to my housemates parents/family. Then we could still see him and be involved, he'd have a dog friend there, a garden, and there would always be someone in the house with him so we thought it was win-win. That's a brief and confusing history to get to where I am now. I'm currently with my housemate staying at his parents house, with Omar, for two weeks, as we do sometimes.

I don't know where to start really. First, the family's other dog, Omar's friend for the last year, died of old age just last week. Then, the next day, me and my housemate arrived and Omar recognised us and was extatic. In the last week, he hasn't been eating though. We tried to investigate, worried about him, and my housemates mum (who basically runs things around here) said that they leave food down all day and assured us that he comes and goes when he wants to eat, because he's an 'independent dog' and she doesn't want to tell him what to do. After a few days though, the food didn't seem to be going down at all every day. It was being changed every day, but hardly any was going down, and it was just a normal sized bowl. Then it comes out that pretty much everyone in the house feeds him off their plate, and the mum often shares her breakfast with him, as though it's just a normal part of the day. That's his breakfast as well as hers (a slice or two of toast with butter). And despite assuring us that he eats fine, we start to notice things in his bowl like a prawn cracker, or uncooked (defrosted in microwave) mince, or sausages, mixed in with his normal tinned food, or just put on top, like an incentive for him to eat. So, we've been trying to get her to give him set meal times, like he always did when we had him - he would get up, go for a walk, then we'd come back and give him his food and be all excited and eat it all up straight away, and have regular bowel movements etc. And now it's got to this. So we tried to tell her its better, but she said she knows what she's doing, he's an 'independent dog', she's raised a dog for 17 years, and we basically lost the 'argument'. We had nothing to say to her. She completely thinks she knows what she's doing and laughs at us turning up like supernannies thinking we can solve everything. She doesn't even think there's a problem. At least, thats what she says, but the fact she's having to bribe Omar to eat and the other day fed him his normal tinned food from a fork, suggest she does.

Secondly, his walks. He doesn't get walked often at all. Maybe once a week if he's lucky. One of the conditions of selling him was that he'd get walked every day - if we'd known they wouldn't, then we wouldn't have sold him and would have found a way to make it work with the cat. But anyway, they say they work and have school etc. so they don't have time to walk him. Unsurprisingly, this has lead to him developping pretty bad pulling habits, and developping a fear of people and other dogs and cars etc. which made walking him harder, which meant people were even more reluctant to walk him. We've been walking him twice a day since we got here, turning when he pulls, and he's made huge improvements. He walks calmly next to me holding the lead for most of the walk, sits at the sides of roads and crosses calmly now. He also doesn't pull and try and chase or jump at cars. Also, with people, he seems to have calmed down slightly. He still gets a little on edge, but if they're walking on the other side of the road he just watches then and then continues. We haven't tried with people closer -the few times it has happened, it's been a surprise around a corner or someone coming out their drive, and then he's jumped and pulled and made breathing noises. He wears a muzzle and while I'm reluctant (will get to that in a minute) it seems it might be necesary. I have no idea if he got to people if he'd lick them and rub against them, or jump and bite. So, all we know is that when he sees people or dogs, he jumps and pulls on the lead, which pulls on his neck (which I HATE) and breaths deeply and heavily. Dogs and cats, he's gone. Pulling and jumping towards them. The other day, we took him out at 10pm to avoid people and dogs as much as possible, and another dog appeared, off the lead. We all froze in surprise, including Omar, and the dog came over at a brisk pace and looked as though he was going to sniff Omar. Omar was obviously terrified, and started jumping and doing the breathing and growling and it was all noisy and frantic and thankfully the owner decided to appear and took his dog by the collar and said sorry and walked off. It was the last thing we wanted at this stage.

Now like I said, his walks go generally fine once we get going. But, to get out of the house and onto any road, we have to pass serveral dogs in either direction in the yards of other houses. They're unruly, and bark at Omar, he pulls and leaps back at them, so every walk starts off with scuffling and pulling and stress and noise and panic. And of course, every walk ends this way too unless we're lucky, because we have to walk past the dogs again to get home. I don't see how we can get around this at all. I read on here that some people just stand completely still and wait for the dog to get kind of bored and stop pulling, then they let the lead go loose and the dog stops pulling. Well, we tried that today, and he eventually stopped jumping and the lead was tight, he sat down, so I stepped forward to let the lead go loose, he was still for a second then the other dog barked again and he started leaping. About three other dogs were barking all around us too, and we had to just walk on eventually before upsetting the neighbours. And it seems like we'll get past one dog, and there's another, or there's a cat, or someone on a bike, and since he's so worked up, he goes for anything in that state. So we have to just wait for a period of calm before he calms down and we get some kind of control back.

I know when we see other dogs on walks, we're supposed to sit him down and try and distract him. We've tried that a few times now but have been too late and he's already gone, so this is something we'll try tomorrow and in future, but I can't see it working. He doesn't seem interested at all in the treats, the dogs are much more exciting. Today was a particularly bad walk for dogs, and by the end of the walk we'd say sit at the side of the road and he wouldn't, he'd be searching around on edge and only sit after about 20 seconds. And he wasn't accepting any treats.

No one trains him either. When we first brought him down, he'd already learnt Sit, Lay, Paw, Up, Come and his name. THen when I got him here I was here for 3 weeks, and in one day I taught him "touch" where he'd jump up to touch my hand with his nose, or run to me to touch it. He's since forgotten this skill, and today we tried to reteach it by making him touch the end of a stick with his nose. The difference was huge, he didn't seem interested at all, and I don't think even after repeated attempts he got what was happening. It's not because he's stupid or incapable of learning, it's just like...as though its his first day back at school. Completely unstimulated by this kind of mental exercise. Add to this the fact we'd got some really tasty turkey bits for his treats - we'd used them the day before to try and get him used to his muzzle and he loved them and was even putting his muzzle on to get a turkey treat - but today, in another attempt to get him to eat, his mum, unbeknownst to us, fed him a packet of the turkey bits on top of his food and he ate them all up, so I think by the time we were then sitting there with another pack using them as delicious treats, it was almost like he was having to work for his dinner, and he was like "I can't be bothered, I'll just wait til it's put in my bowl".

Finally, the muzzle problem. They made him wear a muzzle when they walked him after we'd left him with them. He hated it, and it got to the point where they started using it as a punishment. They'd wave it at him to get him to stop biting something or whatever, to regain control, and he'd cower and run or bow his head. Then, of course, they'd put it on him to take him for a walk. We came down again for another two weeks before, and I brought with me a halti head collar and we walked him with that. Despite me showing them how to use it, and walking him with it successfully, no one else was interested in bothering to learn to use it. They found it confusing and just today I got it back out all dusty from somewhere and it turns out they tried to use it once or twice more but put it on wrong and didn't know how to use it (they didn't get that you pull sideways when he pulls, leading him sideways like a horse, so they'd be using it like it was a normal collar). Anyway, the muzzle is here to stay so there's no point us even arguing with them on that point, plus with him now having this apparent fear of other people and dogs, it's for the best. It's so frustrating because he used to like meeting other dogs and sniffing them and especially meeting new people. Now we don't know if he'd bite a new person or lick them like he always did. As the muzzle is here to stay, we tried to get him to like it. They no longer use it as a punishment thankfully, so we tried to make him like it by letting him sniff it, then giving a treat (turkey). Then letting him eat some turkey bits off of the muzzle. Then feeding him through the muzzle so it was round his head. Then increasing time it was on before he got the treat etc. But, when it came to walk, he bowed his head and looked sad and it broke my heart having to put it on him. I know it wouldn't fix overnight, so we'll keep with the treats and muzzle association over the next few days to see if it improves at all.

So to summarise, the major problems we face are:

1) What can we possibly say to his mum? She basically controls how he is treated, his food, everything. And the problem is, she doesn't see there's a problem. With his food she thinks set meal times are like treating him as a slave or something; with his walks she thinks he's perfectly within his rights to bark at other dogs, showing the neighbourhood that he's top dog she jokes. Any problem we bring up, she sees as independence, or character, or happiness, or a one-off etc. etc. etc. I read from Victoria's dog book, saying no set meal times means possible problems with digestion because its always working, and it lets him know you're in control as you provide food. SHe said that it's just one persons opinion, and she's raised a dog for 17 years and he was happy and healthy (although in my experience, he spent most of his time in a small concrete 'yard', and any time he was in the house he was confined to a single rug - any time he got off the rug someone would angrily yell "GET ON YOUR RUG", because he malted hair around, but anyway, I digress...) And I bought a clicker today to try and help with training, and I got the same attitude. Like it was some modern voodoo and stupid to try.

2) His muzzle. How can we get him to like it and be fine putting it on. Once it's on he doesn't notice it or try and claw it off. It's just he clearly hates, HATES, having it put on him.

3) Every walk starts off with barking and pulling and tension and stress, because we're surrounded by out of control dogs. It's an area where the dogs are mostly kept outside in small yards (thankfully Omar is an inside dog so spends all his time in the house with people). It breaks my hearts seeing other dogs like this, and with Omar it's a huge problem because it feels like we can't help Omar with his walking when every walk starts and ends like this. It feels like we need to fix the other dogs before we can start with Omar.

4) Omar pulls and leaps towards other dogs on walks, and cats. We're going to try and distract him, but it's hard and we're not sure if it will work.

5) No one here seems interested in training him. So it feels pointless to even teach him something like "touch" because no one else will use it. At the very most, someone might be like "touch...hahaha clever dog" to impress a friend or wahtever, as though he just magically learnt it. They don't care about doing anything like that themselves or care how I taught him it etc. How do I deal with such apathy? Is it pointless to even try and get him to walk right, eat right, and train him, when in two weeks I'll be gone again and it will almost certainly slip back to no walks and their rules? How can I get through to them?

Sorry it's so long, but I wanted to try and get the fullest picture I could so you can try and understand what's happening. I feel like no one else cares but me and my housemate, and even he (as I mentioned in previous posts) is willing to put the effort in to read Victoria's book or watch the TV show, or train him, because he thinks it's all fake and not worth doing. But anyway, I've said enough. You deserve a medal if you read all this. :lol:
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by emmabeth »

I really do get that you care and you are really upset at what this dogs life is now like.

There most certainly ARE methods and techniques that would fix all the issues that his owners have with him - and you will find them on this forum, just take a look through the many and varied posts here.

The issue is though - this is not your dog any more. You sold him, and that means you gave up the right to decide what happens to him in his life.

If you think I am being harsh well, maybe I am a little as I am sure you gave him up for the best reasons and thought it would be ok for him - this is one of lifes horrid little lessons I guess!

The crux of the matter is here, his actual owners do NOT see that they have a problem. Even if they DID see that, theres a real good chance they would not take advice from you, over their own experience, because that just IS how this 'parents/other peoples parents vs kids/other peples kids' thing works out.

But the fact is they DONT see that they have a problem, and as long as that remains true, they will not be interested in doing anything to fix a problem they don't think they have!

Now I am not a quitter, so if I were you reading this I would probably think 'well yep but I wanna do something anyway'..

So - quit telling them whats wrong and what they should or should not do. Really (hard isn't it, its taken me decades to learn this one!) - zip it. Shhh!

You won't change their minds, they will get more defensive and determined to prove themselves right, yadda yadda, waste of time.

What you CAN do is attempt to teach this dog a new, simple but cool looking trick. Just the one, pick up a clicker and teach him that click means treat (you might have to use a ball or a toy or fried chicken or something since hes way overfed and not interested in food), and then teach him something he couldnt do before.

If you can do that, you can show them that and HOPEFULLY they may see that actually their dog likes training and can do more than they are currently doing. Hopefully.

Alternatively, buy the dog back.
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Nettle
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by Nettle »

And never ever leave the clicker where they can find it - because they'll start using it like a remote control, and that ends your clicker-training.

I'm so sorry for you (and thank you for that lovely long post) but really it is as Emms says. You can bring happiness to Omar's life by exercising him when you are able (can you drive to a less exciting area, even the first few hundred yards so you don't meet the other dogs?) but he isn't your dog any more, you did what you thought was best, and it is a very sad experience for you.
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H-Man
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by H-Man »

Thanks for the replies and for reading my post. We walked Omar today and he was great, not reacting to people walking on the other side of the road and even a dog or two that were quite nearby. He saw them, stopped to look, and I just said "lets go" and he kept walking with me. The one problem we had, we noticed a family with a young girl and a pram walking towards us, so we crossed the road - then they decided to cross the road in front of us. No idea why, they could see us and would have thought it was obvious why we were crossing. So we just sat Omar down and tried to distract him but they were too close and he barked, but didn't really lunge because we were in the way and he stayed sitting.

Other than that, it was a great walk, and we got out of the house with no problems and no other dogs. He could hear them barking and noticed that, but we kept walking and it was fine.

He's still not eating from his bowl though. So maybe you can help me with that, as I know that the mum wants Omar to eat as much as we do, so if I could fix that as well then we could go home happy. I was doing some clicker training with him this morning, or at least, I tried to, but when I gave him the biscuit treats he usually enjoys, he wasn't interested. He'd take them in his mouth and just let them fall out. But then I got a handful of them and he scoffed them all up. Then I got another handful and he wasn't interested. We cleaned his bowl out this morning because yesterdays food was crusting inside it, and he wasn't interested. I'd say maybe its the brand of dog food but he didn't like another tin either the other day, so I don't think that's it. I don't know what it was, but I heard the mum feeding him again earlier, I'm assuming it was something from her breakfast or a pork pie or something not good for him.

On his walk we used little bits of cheddar cheese and he liked that.

So the food is sitting in his bowl down there still. What would you suggest? Putting it down for 20 minutes in the morning and then taking it away if he doesn't eat it? Then what? Put it back down at lunch, or just leave it until dinner then try again, or what? Should we try and get people to stop feeding him little bits through the day?
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Nettle
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by Nettle »

Well it would be just great if you could stop the constant feeding through the day and off plates and all that, but it doesn't sound as if you'll be able to, from what you have told us.

Is Omar fat, thin or just right? Maybe he is having enough food. Maybe he doesn't like the processed food. Maybe he has a problem with his teeth. Maybe he has a problem with the bowl (some dogs don't like the smell of plastic bowls and some don't like noisy shiny metal bowls).
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H-Man
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by H-Man »

I think he looks healthy, the last time we came down he was a bit chubby and overweight so they stopped feeding him sweets and cake and things like that.

We tried to feed him off a plate incase it was just the bowl he didn't like, and that didn't work either. There's a metal bowl down there we could try.

What's frustrating is the lack of discipline and structure. We had a routine, and Omar was completely happy with it, enjoyed his food, and now we're not sure if he's even eating at all. I can't believe he's surving off a slice of toast or two a day, and a sausage later on, or a bit of bacon or whatever they're eating. He can't live off scraps. :?

By the way, this is him:

Image

He's the cutest thing to weigh over 40kg.
afk
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by afk »

Oh wow that's a tough one. I think that honestly, if i were in that situation seeing "my former dog" treated like that, i would buy him back, no questions asked.
"If you talk to animals, they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them, you will not know them, and what you do not know you will fear. What one fears, one destroys."
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Noobs
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by Noobs »

I do remember your first posts and you made such great progress with him. It breaks my heart to think of that lovely dog being forced to sit on a rug all day and yelled at if he tries to move.

I say buy him back.
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Nettle
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by Nettle »

If he isn't underweight, he's getting enough food. That's more than 'a few' scraps :wink:

Get him a new bowl that is much smaller than the one he has - Mom psychology - Moms like to fill bowls right up.
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by emmabeth »

I would try yes, smaller bowl! and then put it down for breakfast, twenty mins, then for teatime/dinner time in the evening, twenty minutes.

Then NO scraps or treats unless hes training.

The other thing you can do is to put a dish on the table at each meal time and say that if anyone has left overs or scraps that they want to give to Omar, put them in the bowl in the middle. Then they can be added to his meal IF they are suitable, and a proportion of his kibble can be left out to account for the scraps. (Hopefully then you can filter out the stuff that is totally inappropriate for him to eat without anyone seeing after the meal!).
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H-Man
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by H-Man »

They're good ideas, thanks everyone. I wish we could buy him back - and maybe we could eventually, we're moving down here in two months so we'll be coming round every day to walk him and stuff. We could maybe buy him back then, but, my thinking is that it would be disruptive for him. We'll see where we end up and if it would be suitable to do.

I made a great dinner for Omar last night - mince, peas, carrots and potatos - the people in the house had a try and said they'd enjoy eating it. But I put it in his bowl, he looked into it, licked up a little bit, and ended up eating a cup or so of it. Someone suggested adding gravy to it because he 'loves gravy' but he wasnt interested, and this morning the mum tells me that he doesn't like gravy so thats probably why he didn't want any more, doh. But then this morning, the mum came down and added more of the dinner (we made enough for a couple of days) on top of the hardened gravy crap that he hadn't eaten last night. Then, because he didn't eat that, she added shredded bacon on top, which he also didn't eat. I put a fresh bowl of the mince stuff down and again he licked it and I think he likes the taste. But, I told the mum that he's got no reason to eat this nice healthy dinner when he knows that in an hour or so, the mum will just give him hot dogs and buttered toast etc. In fact, she's just gone to the shop now to get him some hot dogs "because I know he eats them". But she's acknowledged that he's losing weight. I think he's probably at a healthy weight now so if we could keep him where he is now then it'd be perfect, but it's probably that "mom psychology", she wants him to be all chubby and full.

Do any of you have any advice on what I could say to the mum about why it's better to feed him at set times and to take it away when he doesn't finish it? She says she doesn't want to do that because he's independent and she thinks its unfair, and says "how would you like it if i told you when you have to eat". I've told her its better on his digestion and to let him love and respect her more because she provides his food, but it hasn't got through. I mean she provides all his junk food anyway so that side of it wouldn't be affected, but his digestion might. Any other reasons?

She's probably going to give him hot dogs when she gets back from the shop because she doesn't want him to go hungry, but I might be able to stop her. Am I right thinking that it's better to basically let him be hungry so that he eats the food in his bowl? It's not a case of him not enjoying it, it's just he's waiting for hot dog. My cat has been fussy in the past, and I suppose I'm as guilty as the mum is with that, because I've had her all my life so if she doesn't eat her food, even if she's eaten it before, I'll change it and give her some luxury food that's good enough for humans. :P My parents would just leave it in the bowl, and eventually she eats it. I'm following that same logic with Omar. He's got great, healthy food in a nice clean bowl now, he's just thinking that if he waits he'll get junk food.
H-Man
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by H-Man »

*sigh* She's thrown out my food and given him hot dogs, which of course he ate. I said that's why he's not eating the mince and the healthy food, because she's feeding him crap. And she said she knows, and its because he's spoilt, he gets his own way. I said she needs to break that then. And she said she knows but he can't go hungry.

I had to just walk away, I can't stop it, I'm helpless, so it's stressing me out and depressing me to see. I'm gunna have to just accept that she's right, he can survive off hot dogs and toast. I'm saying this now, but I know that by the end of the day I'll be fighting it again. I guess I have to keep trying. But it does feel completely futile. :(
afk
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by afk »

How about having a veterinarian tell her how "healthy" her food is.... :roll:
My mother in law is the same with her dog that already has major health issues but she just won't listen when it comes to her own dog. Now, whenever she watches our dog, she knows to follow our directions or else she is in trouble because i can see when my dog gained weight or his allergies came back. She only fed him crap once... lol
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Nettle
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by Nettle »

No good getting an average vet involved - most practices make a lot of profit selling pet food so their advice isn't exactly 'independent'. Unless vets have specifically studied nutrition to a point of geekness, they don't have much idea about it, and nor do most highly-qualified human Drs and nutritionists - sadly.

So - back to the dog. He's a DOG, Mom. He has a short gut, through which food passes quickly, all of his teeth end in points, in his natural state he would eat once a day and much of the time it would be carrion (I'm not saying you should feed him this - of course you should not - but it's to illustrate how different his food requiremenst are from human ones). The sort of stuff that would make a human quite ill. But it doesn't make dogs ill because their digestion and nutritional requirements are way different from ours.

Most of all he can be hungry. He won't die of being a bit peckish and looking forward to his next meal. Hunting dogs have to hunt on empty stomachs, otherwise they would become ill. Being hungry is a natural state for a dog. Not starving, but hungry. It's in the design.

However quite honestly I do think this is a Mom thing and you are more likely to be struck by lightning than to be able to change the way she thinks, even by presenting facts. :evil: It isn't peculiar to your Mom: many are like that. If this sort of Mom feeds the birds, they get so fat they can't fly. It's digging his grave with a can opener, but she'll never see it like that. :( Does she watch her own diet? Often if people have to be careful with their own food intake, they load up other people's plates and that goes for animal bowls as well.
Last edited by Nettle on Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Problems Seemingly Impossible To Solve

Post by Noobs »

H-Man wrote:They're good ideas, thanks everyone. I wish we could buy him back - and maybe we could eventually, we're moving down here in two months so we'll be coming round every day to walk him and stuff. We could maybe buy him back then, but, my thinking is that it would be disruptive for him. We'll see where we end up and if it would be suitable to do.
Being passed from your house to hers and then back to yours seems like it would be much less "disruptive" than the daily emotional "abuse" of not allowing him to move about the house or the physical abuse of overfeeding him junk day in and day out. Just my opinion. But he seems like you were turning him into such a lovely dog that even with the change in homes twice he's still better off with you in the end. Best of luck in any case.
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