Loose Lead Walking/Clicker vs. Prong Collar

[Simba1]

I have been using LLW and Clicker training to help our 2 year old golden/chow rescue stop pulling. We like the trainer we are working with (she is aligned with the VS ideas) and she says that our dog is very bright and from what she sees it will take a long while to train him with LLW. He has picked up many other things real easily.

She has seen him in action quite a few times already. We have made some progress; however, we like to take him to the local dog park to play since he really enjoys this and it helps him burn off some energy. So far, all I can do safely is taking him up and down my block without him pulling and being mindful.

We like to take him to the dog park where he can play, which he loves, and get some running around time. I would like to walk with him the woods, someday; however, the stimulation is too great there as yet for me to do so. Neither my husband nor I can walk with him for exercise without his pulling us and injuring our shoulders, ankles, etc. We are frustrated. Taking him to the dog park is a huge struggle (getting him to not pull, etc.) and is very frustrating to get him there following the training guidance we were given which works only it is a big effort.

We know that the prong collar is not recommended and supposedly the dogs obey out of fear, pain, etc. however, I have to be honest. We see dogs all day long going to and from the dog park with their owners walking perfectly nicely, happily, without pulling at all, wearing a prong collar and the dogs do not seem at all traumatized by this. Us, on the other hand, are exhausted and stressed because of the pulling. Can anyone explain this? The prong collar would allow us to actually walk the dog for exercise and get him to the dog park without a scene. I do not like the idea one bit; nonetheless, our threshold is beginning to creep up. I am somewhat disabled so he just has to learn how to walk properly if I am going to be able to do this. My husband is about done with it all. He refuses to follow the training advice generally (never uses the clicker) yet I need him to help me with the dog at this point. My husband blaims me for the dog not being fully trained yet he uses the extended leash all the time (I asked him not to) when he takes him for a walk to do his business, etc. I feel he is undermining my efforts. Nonetheless, this is what I am working with and need your help. We love this dog a lot.

What can I do? Step up the training (more often, longer)? How long should it take with a very smart dog? He knows what to do we feel - he just gets so distracted by everything around him he does not want to pay attention. Sometimes, we walk up and down the block beautifully and I think we are making progress. Other times I have to get him to "Sit" repeatedly to re-capture his focus. The turn around thing does not work - he is happy to do that too! If I do the dead tree thing it could be a half an hour before he will look at me. He is content to be outside looking around at his environment.

Thanking you in advance for your help.

[Noobs]

I hate to say this, but the problem is your husband not being consistent and not following the training. No matter how much LLW training you do, if you let the dog pull once, you're back at square one. If you use an extending lead, it feels to the dog like he's pulling and you're allowing it, so again, square one.

I see plenty of dogs on prong collars too and I hate to see it. If you are against its use then please don't, and don't let a dog that "looks" happy wearing one fool you into thinking it's better than TEACHING a dog to walk on LLW. You will probably hear from others who will be more harsh than I, so prepare for that. But please don't punish your dog with a prong collar because his humans have thus far failed at training.

As to your comment that he "knows" what to do, I completely disagree. Sometimes he pulls on a regular leash, sometimes he pulls on an extending leash, sometimes you can walk him nicely, sometimes you can turn and walk him in the other direction. He's happy to do any and all of these things, and you and your husband have allowed him to do any and all of these things. So he most certainly does NOT know what to do.

Please, I strongly urge you to go to the LLW article and try that method and that method ONLY for the next week. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=858 Don't worry about the dog park for now, and don't use a clicker or treats. Just make him follow you for ten minutes, change directions, walk in circles, walk around lamp posts, walk around cars. Do this for ten minutes, 5-6 times per day. Working his mind in this way will tire him out more than an hour running amok at the dog park. Stay on just your street. If your husband won't follow instructions, give him a week's break from walking the dog. You do this for a week. Reassess after that.

[nightsrainfall]

You will see the injury of prong collars later in their life. I do know how to use a prong collar (not sure I should admit that here, lol) and honestly it's difficult to use it "correctly" because the dog STILL pulls, except for now it's pulling with prongs in its neck. I do like prong collars only over no stop-chokers because the chocker can cause the dog to suffocate and damage the vocal cords while a prong will just damage the vocal cords.

I don't have any real good tricks that I can communicate well - but other people do and they got them to work, so you know it's possible. A good part is the dog is just out of the puppy stage in their full grown body, so now they can run and play not awkwardly, and boy do they want to sometimes!

I can understand the 'pain' though, I walk dogs at the shelter and every now and again either my hand hurts, arms, or shoulders (sometimes legs if the dog accidently head butted me). Consistency helps so much though, so you and your husband need to do things the same way and hold the same standards, as well as communicate to what happened so the other knows what to look for or what might happen again (or share in successes!).

For shelter dogs I always use a short leash (small dogs get a little longer leash cause then it actually has to touch the ground). The end of the leash is held in the hand opposite side I walk the dog, and then I put my other hand (the one on the same side as the dog), also on the leash on that side. (So the dog only really gets 1-2 feet of leash) and if they are of medium-to-large size their bodies will only go halfway, 3/4s of the way past me. This is more so the dog won't ever get a chance to get away from me (shelter dog), and they are close enough I will notice their momentum, movements, etc right away. If the dog is pulling ahead of me, I turn them in front of me, by bringing them around front with the hand closest to me and turning my body, if they are about to pull or alert I turn the opposite direction to body block while I'm turning what they are looking at/alert towards...

[Sarah83]

When I had the problem of other people walking Rupert and not being consistent with his training the behaviourist I had out to him (for various reasons, pulling on leash was a minor issue) recommended using a regular collar for loose leash walking training and when we had to get somewhere in a rush or whoever was walking him wasn't prepared to put the effort into getting him walking nicely have him on a harness or headcollar. Rupert now walks beautifully on a regular collar and so so on a halti but put his harness on and he's out in front with the leash tight. It's not ideal and it probably does slow training down but it's worked well for us. There was no way on this earth my dad was going to either stop walking the dog or start training him and we were at the vets regularly and I can't drive so would walk him there on a halti and practice loose leash walking on the way back.

A prong collar isn't the answer, many dogs will still pull on one. The best bet is not to focus on getting to a destination when practicing loose leash walking. Set a time frame instead, say 10 minutes of practicing it. If you're anything like me you'll find yourself wearing a groove in about a metre of pavement in front of your house at first but it does get better if you're consistent. I find short but frequent training sessions better than a long one, 5 minutes several times a day may well get you further than an hour long session once a day. Training is mentally tiring so although he's not getting the physical exercise of running around at the dog park he should be pretty chilled.

[Beau&Luke'sMomn]

I agree that a prong collar is not the answer. Many years ago we tried one and I hated it because Beau still pulled on it despite the fact that it appeared to hurt. Ditto with choke collar. I understand about getting hurt...I had surgery on my hand in February due to excessive wear and tear on my thumb joint from walking Beau. We are very glad to have been introduced to the Gentle Leader. My goal is someday to walk with both dogs on a loose lead, but for now this is a great interim step. Good luck.

[emmabeth]

I think this is where the careful use of a headcollar or chest attachment harness comes in very very handy.

However you have to put this to your hubby as a deal. He can ditch the clicker (not the treats, dog still needs to get paid!), and you'll put the harness or headcollar on (I find guys get annoyed at how fiddly some stuff is to put on right and if they dont wanna do it in the first place they will get it wrong 'on purpose!'), but he walks the dog on the headcollar/harness as he is told to do so.

You can then do the training walks yourself, and hubby can use the headcollar or harness as described (wtih a double ended leash to the collar for safety), rewarding the dog for walking beside him, doing an about turn if he sees something the dog is liable to lunge at and getting his focus before trying to go back that way again.

The other alternative is to up the amount of games/play you do, and training, and tell hubby either he walks the dog properly the right way or he doesnt walk the dog at all.

[Mattie]

I have been using LLW and Clicker training to help our 2 year old golden/chow rescue stop pulling. We like the trainer we are working with (she is aligned with the VS ideas) and she says that our dog is very bright and from what she sees it will take a long while to train him with LLW. He has picked up many other things real easily.

She has seen him in action quite a few times already. We have made some progress; however, we like to take him to the local dog park to play since he really enjoys this and it helps him burn off some energy. So far, all I can do safely is taking him up and down my block without him pulling and being mindful.

I found that when I stopped to click and reward my dog I had stopped the training, when I resumed teaching the loose lead walking I had to go back to the beginning, it didn't work. Instead I changed and stopped the constant stopping to click and reward, I worked for 5to 10 minutes then when my dog was walking a few strides next to me I stopped, gave a really wonderful reward with treats and praise, etc. and stopped the session. As my dog got better and better I expected him to walk next to me for longer and longer periods. In the end I was getting nearly all the training session with my dog next to me.

We like to take him to the dog park where he can play, which he loves, and get some running around time. I would like to walk with him the woods, someday; however, the stimulation is too great there as yet for me to do so. Neither my husband nor I can walk with him for exercise without his pulling us and injuring our shoulders, ankles, etc. We are frustrated. Taking him to the dog park is a huge struggle (getting him to not pull, etc.) and is very frustrating to get him there following the training guidance we were given which works only it is a big effort.

We know that the prong collar is not recommended and supposedly the dogs obey out of fear, pain, etc. however, I have to be honest. We see dogs all day long going to and from the dog park with their owners walking perfectly nicely, happily, without pulling at all, wearing a prong collar and the dogs do not seem at all traumatized by this. Us, on the other hand, are exhausted and stressed because of the pulling. Can anyone explain this? The prong collar would allow us to actually walk the dog for exercise and get him to the dog park without a scene. I do not like the idea one bit; nonetheless, our threshold is beginning to creep up. I am somewhat disabled so he just has to learn how to walk properly if I am going to be able to do this. My husband is about done with it all. He refuses to follow the training advice generally (never uses the clicker) yet I need him to help me with the dog at this point. My husband blaims me for the dog not being fully trained yet he uses the extended leash all the time (I asked him not to) when he takes him for a walk to do his business, etc. I feel he is undermining my efforts. Nonetheless, this is what I am working with and need your help. We love this dog a lot.

Of course dogs walk well on a prong collar, so would I if I had spikes sticking into my neck if I put pressure on a collar. Is that what you really want for your dog?

Prong collars don't work very well on thick coated dogs like Chows unless the spikes are very long and thin to get through the thickness of the coat, they work because they cause a lot of pain to the dog when they try to pull.

A couple with a Chow used to live near me, this dog pulled them everywhere she wanted to go, they had no control over her at all, I had a dog aggressive dog at that time, no matter how I asked them to keep their dog away they just were not capable untill one day Gracie got her. Gracie was only 10ins high but they made sure that she never to their dog again, the dog used to run from Gracie when she saw her.

Why not do what others dog when you want to walk her to the dog park, walk your dog on a well fitted harness and use a head collar as back-up. Have a double ended lead or 2 leads, keep the lead on the head collar loose unless you need it for extra control.