Any suggestions.....

[tansox]

Okay, where do I start? I have two rescued Rottweilers, one is 3 and is the soppiest and most gentle dog you could wish for - no problems there. The other dog is rather more complicated!

At five months old, he was diagnosed with Discus Spondylitis, which is a disease that eats away at the spinal discs, causing acute pain and paralysis. He underwent two major - and I do mean major operations, and now has 12 pins and cement holding his spinal column in place. During the recovery period, he was unable to stand let alone walk, but after 10 months of no exercise, and therefore no socialising and stimulus whatsoever, he is now well and truly able to run around and play with my other Rottie. We have come along way with the socialising side of things, he is very obedient, recall, lead-walking, stays and downs etc. are very good, but the problem is - when he is in the car - if we pass anyone, or a cat, or a person with a dog, he sounds as though he is the most aggressive dog in the village!

I have taken him to busy car-parks and we sit and watch people go by, pass us on both sides of the car - no reaction from him whatsoever, he only reacts when the car is moving! We've tried stopping the car to show him that all the barking he does, does not chase people away, they still go about their business. He continues to bark and growl at people - worrying to say the least. But, when we bring him out of the car, he's happy, tail wagging, relaxed and ready for his walk. He will be 2 years old in June this year - any suggestions, it is impossible to reward him for being quiet when I'm driving, I can verbally praise him, but what else can I do ?

My other Rottie does not react to anything, he is a registered P.A.T. dog (pets as therapy) and we go to two nursing homes every week.

[Fundog]

I'll just get this bumped up for you....

[emmabeth]

Tricky, because you need to be drivingat the same time as straining.

Can you get someone else to drive whilst you train? Then what I would do is actually reward him every time he sees a person, regardless of what he does. The idea being that seeing people = reward. If he won't take the reward, that will give you a clue as to how stressful he finds seeing people whilst the car is moving, but I suspect this is just 'fun' more than it is fear.

When you cant train, I would crate him in a covered crate so he cant see outw hilst the car is moving, which means he cant practice the behaviour.

[tansox]

We did try covering a crate, but having two fully grown male Rotties in the back of the car, did not leave enough room for the other one! The crate is so big (it needs to be, he doesn't sit for long, he must lie down, it's probably uncomfortable sitting for a while for him! ) by covering it, it was impossible to see through the sides and rear view mirror.

ah well, just thought I'd ask! Any more ideas would be gratefully received - many thanks!

[emmabeth]

I don't really know what else to suggest - change vehicles and drive a van? (We do, hence me not realising the lack of rear view is a problem for some people).

If the issue occurs in the car when it is moving and only then, you have to address it then - either by rewarding him and counter conditioning, or by some sort of consequence.

The problem is that stopping the second he barks or growls is really hard and potentially dangerous to do in a lot of places, and the rewarding requires two people.

There are crates that can fit on a backseat, they are tube shaped rather than square however I am not sure if they go up big enough for a rottie!

The other thing to try is to transport the dogs seperately for a while, whilst you work on this problem - the other dogs presence may be making him worse.

Whatever you do, I would make sure seeing people in the stationary vehicle and immediately outside the vehicle remains a REALLY good thing so keep up hte work in carparks etc as you do not want him to move on to aggressing at people in these situations (I don't know whether he would or not but its not something I'd leave to chance).

[tansox]

We did think about changing vehicles.... but thought it was a little bit of a shame as the car we have is just perfect for them both.

You are right though, he's not anxious, I think he gets a buzz from it. We have tried taking them out separately, he's no different on his own, he still reacts.

I don't just suddenly stop the car when he's barked, I have set "stooges" up along the lane so to speak;The reaction is loud!! I have driven him up and down busy high streets and by the time we reach the bottom, he's quiet, - eventually! that's when he gets lots of praise, we think we've cracked it, and then he'll start up again maybe two minutes later, or five. He's inconsistent and I can see no reason why he reacts to people, he's friendly when he meets them. I've looked at the people on the street, they are just normal people, nothing out of the ordinary, all ages, shapes and sizes. I could maybe understand it a bit more if they were noisy or jumping around, and I can understand the odd cat or dog, but he does sound as though he's so aggressive - and when he gets out of the car, he resumes normal posture and manners, immediately! Talk about Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde!!!

I've spent three months working with this problem so I wasn't expecting instant problem solving that's for sure, but I didn't want to have missed the obvious! I've tried ignoring him when he's kicking off, I've tried shouting at him, that worked for a while because I NEVER shout at my dogs, I don't have to! I've told him to lie down, which he does, but still creates this noise!

Ahhh well, it keeps me busy I suppose!

[jakesmom]

Hi Tansox

I know how you feel on this one, our last dog was a nightmare in the car whenever he saw anyone or anything, whether the car was moving or not. And unfortunately if you don't manage to train him, your quiet dog may well start joining in.

But don't worry, because you can probably solve this, but you will need someone in the car with you to help you out.

Do you have anyone to help you and do you have a dog guard in your vehicle ?

[tansox]

Yes we do have a dog guard at the front behind the driver's seat, and at the rear door so the dogs can get in and out.

My other rottie is so laid back, I doubt he will ever join in the shennanigans! I think in three years I've heard him bark twice! One of the reasons he is a registered PAT dog as well as an excellent ambassador for this gorgeous breed!

[jakesmom]

Right Tansox, what you need to do, is temporarily cover the windows in your car, or cover the crate at the rear and sides, so he can't see out. At the front of the car behind you and your passenger you will need to set me a screen with a curtain or a sheet. Don't worry this is not a permanent thing, it's just to enable you to hopefully sort out the problem.

You can cover the windows with anything you can find, we used black bin liners, but it's probably easier for you just to throw a cover over the crate. For the curtain we used a length of curtain wire attached to the dog guard, but you just as easily use rope or even a dog lead, anything that will enable you to open and shut the curtain or sheet behind the front seats, so that your dog cannot see anything out of the front windows, until you want him to.

It's probably wiser to just have the noisy dog in the car, when you do this, especially as you can't crate both of them. You will also need a very helpful passenger, because it can be a bit awkward, opening and closing the curtain.

Once you have all the windows covered so your dog can't see out, you should find that your dog remains calm and quiet as you drive along. While he is quiet verbally praise him. Once your dog as been in the car a few minutes, and remained calm, your passenger can open the curtain, your dog will probably start barking like a nutcase, as soon as he does either say nothing at all, or maybe a Ah! Ah! and get your passenger to shut the curtain. Wait until he is quiet and calm again, praise him and then open the curtain again. If he remains quiet really praise him, but the second he barks, close the curtain again. You will probably have to repeat this several times, but he should eventually get the message, and realise if he barks the curtain shuts and he can't see.

Once you feel he is ok, you can allow him access to the other windows, one at a time.

Hope that works for you. let us know how you get on. Good Luck.

PS It's just occured to me that as you have a crate, it may be easier just to completely cover the crate, provided your passenger can reach it easily, and they could then just lift the cover

[tansox]

Well as I have already said, when the crate is covered, we can't see a thing out of the sides or rear! I can't reverse, or see what is on either side of me and as we live in a tiny village in Somerset, it's useful to see what's about! It would be impossible to cover and un-cover the crate by an assistant because they would not be able to turn around to do so, with their seat-belt on!

My trainer suggested tethering him behind the driver's seat, and if he kicks off, spraying him with water, but, I'm unsure about keeping him in one place without being able to move as he is not like any other dog and might develop cramp, pain or discomfort in his neck. He is never in a collar, always in a padded harness.

'tis tricky!

[nightsrainfall]

My trainer suggested tethering him behind the driver's seat, and if he kicks off, spraying him with water, but, I'm unsure about keeping him in one place without being able to move as he is not like any other dog and might develop cramp, pain or discomfort in his neck. He is never in a collar, always in a padded harness.

'tis tricky!

Don't do the spray water thing or the right behind you thing either - both of those have big potential for going really wrong without actually doing any good. (Spraying water isn't really +R either).

I haven't worked with dogs barking in the car, ever, so take any of my "ideas" with a grain of salt. All I am really doing is applying barking on a leash and walking ideas, to driving - but you are going to need two people because I don't really want to distract the driver. :-/

I do think this is 'happy' or 'people!' barking. I've only met 3 Rotties. One was like your quiet dog, the other two scared me when I first met them. The first of these two was at the shelter. Very big Rottie with a very big crazy non-stop barking. Since no one else wanted to go near his kennel I got voted to take him out, lol. Common sense told me do not go near this dog, because of how the sound of his bark sounded, past experience and a gut-feeling said nope he's not a "bad" dog. (there was one other past dog who's happy bark sounded aggressive to the ear). "Common sense" and my ears still told me not to go near the kennel, but I did anyway, and like yours he was completely friendly. Same was true with the other Rotti I met. The other one scared me half to death solely because she came barreling off leash towards me and I had never met her before. Full charge with a whole lot of not-happy-sounding barking to the ear, but only jumped up once and then happily moved around to be petted. (I'm pretty sure I thought "Dummy! Most people will run not pet you when you come charging like that!" I was a bit annoyed at having my heart leap out of my chest so early in the morning that day...). Both these dogs sounded aggressive, both of them were not aggressive at all. I don't know what an "aggressive/stressed/upset" rotti sounds like, but I kinda don't want to find out, their excited "I see you!" bark is more than enough for my poor heart.

So I do have a few questions, even though it "sounds" aggressive, is it aggressive/dislike/stress? (You may have to look at his body language, not just the high energy and then the sounds.) Do you think he's feeling a positive experience when he barks (I am moving and I see people (yay), We are going somewhere! (yay), I found the people!(yay)) or a negative experience (I'm stressed!, I don't like them!, Get away from me people!)? You said it was working that he was calming down by the end of the drive. I am curious, does he stop barking if the car is off, or once he starts he just keeps going? And then you said people start his barking, how close do they need to be before he decides to bark?

I have a feeling once he does start barking, his brain goes 'off' so he's not quite thinking, he's just keeps barking/acting.

[tansox]

The bark is definitely "get away from my car!" kind of bark, and "come any closer and you're mine!" Even I don't like the look of him when he's kicking off - although I love him to bits! People can be any distance away, or on the pavement, it doesn't matter, as soon as they are in his sight! When we're out, he can happily walk past people, stop and be petted, he's calm and quiet, as I have said, he is well trained and socialised now in every way except the car thing! Once we've moved on, he's quiet and settles down again provided there is no-one in sight.

If I "flood" him with people (say down the high street at a busy time) then he's normally better at the end of the street, (although he has to give it his best shot for a minute or two) and I can drive up and down 2 - 3 times and he's mainly quiet - alert, but quiet, but as I've said, we live in a tiny village and it's the odd person dotted here and there that scare the living daylights out of them when he suddently goes off on one! No one is ever in any danger, the windows aren't open enough for him to do anything stupid.

We have no issues with traffic if he's on the pavement on the lead, he's ignore lorries, buses, motorbikes etc., we're surrounded by cattle - no problem, horses, no problem, we can even sit and allow a horse and rider to pass us - no problem, babies in buggies - anything. As I have said, I've spent months re-educating and socialising him and I'm delighted with the results - most of them!

I won't give up on this dog, I've never given up on any of them, but to say this is one problem I think is "challenging" as well as frustrating!

[nightsrainfall]

I'm sorry it's such a frustrating problem. The re-showing him people and thus desenstising him to it, seems to be working, but sometimes that's a debatable method.

On a leash, I would keep a distance. Find right before they do bark (See the tension/alert), praise, go back, repeat but at a farther distance (Cause now the dog already knows there's someone there), and then call it a good day even though I may have not gotten anywhere (distance-wise) with the dog. I'd just keep repeating this, and moving forward by hoping the dog is more ok with it (not likely) or distracting and retreating before the dog barks and praising them. If they do bark, I say 'Ah' or 'Nope' and go the complete opposite direction again.

I've never worked in a car though like that. The only thing I can think of that's similar to the leash situation is having 3 people (driver, 1 person in the back to praise, watch, distract, and cue the driver, and 1 person to be the person on the street). The problem with a car is the dog doesn't physically turn away from the person (they can turn towards them). The dog also isn't interacting with another person, so they won't get any cues off the driver like a dog can when I'm walking them. (I can put my body in front of theirs if they ignore me too much). Is there a toy, tug, or kong that could be used to put focus on that, besides looking for people to yell it? Still, it's more complicated than just desensitizing him to it.

Sorry I can't really help. It is great that he is getting better though! Don't give up. And to keep frustrations down, make things easier, or switch something up. Even though it's silly sometimes doing something REALLY easy that I can then congratulate myself. It makes me de-stress really quickly and not quite give up. Example go into the car, turn on, roll a foot, stop, get out for a happy walk. Look no barking! It doesn't quite fix the problem, but it adds fun or a lighter side to frustration or difficulty. Dogs read us very well, so I know usually once I lose my calm-happiness, I have no chance with even half the dogs at the shelter I volunteer at.

Feel free to vent, or post small successes. The little things count too!

[jakesmom]

Hi again Tansox,

Sorry for the delay in replying.

I'm sorry if I didn't explain very well about covering the windows, I should have made it clearer that I meant the rear window and side windows at the back of the car only. The front side windows obviously need to be clear for you to see out, and the wing mirrors should do the job of allowing you to see what's coming up from behind. And, as hopefully you can sort it out in one day, reversing shouldn't be an issue.

I agree that opening and closing the curtain is awkward with a seat belt on (not impossible though, just very awkward) but as you feel it's not for you, I been thinking what else you could do.

My trainer suggested tethering him behind the driver's seat, and if he kicks off, spraying him with water, but, I'm unsure about keeping him in one place without being able to move as he is not like any other dog and might develop cramp, pain or discomfort in his neck. He is never in a collar, always in a padded harness.

'tis tricky!

I agree with Nightsrainfall about the spray. I don't deny I have used this method in the past. It does work for the first 2 / 3 times you use it, but the dog soon realises it only water and takes no notice (well my dog did anyway), but more importantly the dog doesn't associate it with what you want him to do, or not do.

By the way, I wouldn't worry too much about your dog sounding agressive as my first GSD would snarl and growl terrifyingly at anyone near the car, you would have thought he would have ripped their throats out, but then he would quite happily let them get in and sit right next to him, with us there anyway. (Don't think anyone would have had the guts to try it without us there)

You could try teaching your dog to speak on command and then be quiet on command. I've never done this myself, but someone on the forum probably as, or if not, I can try and
explain how it should be done. So please let us know if you need advice on this.

Another thing I have done, which worked reasonably well, was to actually sit in the rear seat with my dog and just gently say Shhhh Shhhh while stroking and reassuring him everytime someone or something came into view, and telling him what a good boy he was. I had to do this on a few occasions, but it definately helped. I could then say as soon as I saw something coming up that he would react to "Shhhh Shhhh good boy" before he did react. Too late if he saw it before me though.

Hope something above is of some use to you. Good Luck

[jakesmom]

Hi again Tansox

I've just found this Calming Cap, don't know whether that would help.

http://www.dogpartnership.co.uk/equipment.htm