Wannabe Alpha/Independant dog.

[april89]

My chocolate lab has turned into a lovely house dog, never chews anything, has learnt not to go upstairs, moves out the way for my disabled brother, but when we first got her she was nothing like that.

She's a rescue dog and we got her at just over 1yr old (she's now nearly 7) and for the first two weeks she was dreadful. Really testing her boundaries such as she'd jump up on the sofa and would then bare her teeth when we asked her to get off (one our the families pre agreed rules was she wouldnt be allowed on furniture.). She was just testing us there and we just ignored that behaviour and she's never even thought of showing it to us again. In the first two weeks she was also really aggressive to anyone who came to our door to begin with. She came out of this very quickly by herself so we just put it down to her settling in. Unfortunately we know nothing of her past.

Basically there are two problems:

In the last year or so she's been getting a bit more crotchety with strangers and other dogs. All amature dramatics in how she's never yet gone to make contact but if a new dog comes up to her she'll often bark and will almost always raise her hackles. With people theres no real reason - she just seems to not like them. I recognise her body language easily but many people seem to not or they just ignore it. Again she's not done anything but I'm always cautious incase she ever does and gets dubbed a "dangerous dog" as she really isn't. She's also almost always under control as generally shes kept on her extending lead for the second problem below.

She is a very independant dog and is not worried about being a long way from us or even out of sight unless she hasnt been somewhere before. She is very food oriented and can sniff out bread put out for the birds from the other side of a huge playing field and its always better than whatever biscuits we're offering. She is also very strongheaded although that fits in quite well in our household. Also at our regular walk the field is less than a 2 minute walk from our house and she knows this and she knows she knows her way home so again feels little need to be nearby.

Therefore I was wondering if anyone had any ideas to ensure that she never does become problematic to other people/dogs and also if anyone has any ideas to enable us to let her off the lead at the park up the road without us worrying that we'll just have to go after her 5mins later as other than this she is now a lovely dog. We can take food back from her with no problem and she is willing to perform a whole compliment of other commands.

In case it helps she does have quite a severe food allergy which she has had for a few months now but it is under the best treatment we can currently get.

Thanks in advance.

[Owdb1tch]

Your dog isn't trying to be alpha or dominant.

Your dog and your family have communication problems. You know what you want from her but she doesn't. You have to show her what you want and then reward her when she does it.

First off, vet check to see if she's hurting. You mention the food allergy and it might be a good idea to get a second opinion/change meds/change diet if the crotchety thing dates from the food allergy treatment. The 'allergy' may in fact be a digestive disturbance that needs further investigation rather than an actual allergy and nothing else. Late-onset 'allergies' are often symptoms of something else not working rather than an illness in themselves.

For the rest, I don't think we have enough information. I may be completely mistaken, but it sounds as if the dog is living in a confrontational household. If this is so, she will be feeling insecure - especially if she has to put up with her food being taken away (I'd BITE you if you tried that). Secure dogs, dogs that are respected as well as loved, don't get antsy with strange people or dogs.

Are you a safe place for your dog?

[april89]

Just to clarify, we dont take her food away. Once or twice a year we may ask her to let us pick up her dinner rewarding her with another treat and then putting her dinner straight back down but otherwise her dinner's' always been her own.

I do agree that she is definately not trying to be alpha or dominant to us anymore as she is very settled knowing her position in the family heirachy. I don't believe it's a confrontational household but having grown up here I suppose I wouldn't really recognise if it is. I would like to think that she is respected though. She has her own space when she wants it and we dont (intentionally ) ever tease her. Is there any way to check?

She does understand her recall command and will demonstrate it perfectly in the house or a new outdoor place but is far less inclined to follow it on our usual haunts. She will eventually come back but it could be via a garden over 100m away where there's some bread on their lawn and she remembers such places for a couple of weeks and will try to keep trying them if we do not watch her. It appears that she comes back when she wants. This is not the case in the countryside where she does not know her way so well. She is not scolded when she comes back as by then I know it is too late and she would think she's being told off for returning.

Would the vet be happy for me to suggest that it could possibly be something else wrong with her? She has been allergy tested so would these results be false? Unfortunately she is already on maximum steroid dosage but the more I think about it the more it seems that she started becoming more antsy to other dogs around the times her allergies started so is it likely that she is sore and not happy with new dogs approaching because of this? Bar a visit to the vets is there anything else we can do to try to get her a bit less defensive?

I'm not trying to dismiss what you've said - I'm hoping I can build on it to try to help my dog. The reason I believe that she's happy and relaxed is that she will lie and sleep in the most vunerable positions next to us or in the middle of the room as we all bustle about. She'll even lie, floppy and belly up in the middle of a field when we're around and its not the submissive kind of rolling over.

Thank you very much.

[emmabeth]

I do agree that she is definately not trying to be alpha or dominant to us anymore

See thats the thing.... she never has been. Dogs dont WANT to be dominant over us, for a start they dont see us as being pack members in the way is meant by 'alpha pack theory' stuff.

What dogs do very well is repeat behaviour they have found rewarding, and often do things that they enjoy until we stop them by removing the reward.

This is no different to a toddler who learns to walk and explores his environment by grabbing things and shoving them in his mouth, by touching people, grabbing hair, hitting and kicking.

You'd never describe a child as wanting to be alpha though!

So teach her as you would teach a child, I dont mean treat her like a child of course, but teach her by setting her up to succeed, reward the good, prevent her from failing, and if she does fail, ignore it and move on.

Be aware of her limitations... shes a dog, free food lying on the ground is as big a deal to her as finding a £50 note would be to you... you KNOW youd look out every time you passed the place you found £50 for quite some time!

She doesn't return right on time every time you call when you are out in familiar places because the command DOESNT mean 'stop what you are doing and come back immediately', your recall command means 'i want you back, when you are finished what you are doing, if its all the same to you, ill be here waiting'.

To achieve a recall that is 100% (or as near as it can be, given dogs do have their own minds and rightly so), you need to instill in your dog the idea that the recall is a precursor to something else.

'Come back because' : Im going to give you a treat; we are leaving the area; I'm about to start throwing a ball around; I'm getting in the car; I'm going to run the other way.

If it does mean that, and you follow up on that, she will come back but you need to go back a few stages now, change the recall command for a new one (a whistle is good as it wont convey your feelings of frustration/annoyance/etc), stick her on a long trailing lead for a while so she absolutely CANNOT fail to come back when you say.

Then you make the recall mean what you want it to mean, call her and about turn and march in the other direction. Call her and hide behind a tree, call her and run, call her and do some training, call her and give her a treat, call her and play a game.

If you always call and wait around like a lemon then put the lead on and go home.... why WOULD she want to come back? She knows what it means!

The other key to a good recall is nothing to do with calling your dog back and putting on a lead. It is everything to do with NOT walking the same route, stopping to chat with the same other people, sitting on the same bench, playing ball at the same place. People who walk dogs this way end up with 'self employed' dogs who do their OWN walk without their owners.

I used to be one of these, my dog would do his own walk and id see him back at the car!

He could totally predict where id be at any given time, and so he didnt NEED me.

Make your dog NEED you on a walk, be unpredictable, be fun fun fun!

[Owdb1tch]

Emmabeth has covered the training for you - I'll cover the health.

One day you will know a person on high-dose steroids. Take it from me - they become HATEFUL. Steroids do lots of nasty things, but some vets prescribe them first before they try safer meds. Steroids make people feel very ill, and it is likely they do the same to animals.

Now if you go to the vet and say that, he will become unco-operative too so you have to train your vet!

Explain how bad your dog is feeling, and that she has become aggressive (she hasn't but vets don't in general know too much about behaviour - but they DO know steroids cause aggression).

Ask if you can be referred to someone who specialised in dietary allergies.
If you are very brave lol ask to be referred to a homeopathic vet (they are BRILLIANT with this sort of thing. They are properly qualified vets with an extra qualification in homeopathy). Before you do, find the vet to whom you want to be referred, so instead of Can we be referred it's Please would you refer us to Joe Bloggs. A vet cannot refuse you a referral, and if they take it personally, they have the wrong attitude because you are looking for a specialist not just a different vet.

Are you in UK? If so check www.holisticvet.com for a list of homeopathic vets in your area.

All the very best with your doggie.

[vass1974]

I'm wondering, does she ignore the commands when she is farther away from you? At 7, she is becoming a senior citizen. It could be that it's getting harder for her to see and hear over the distances she used to. Physical changes that come with age can also contribute to behavior changes. Old people tend to get more crotchety, and loose patience quicker. Also, when using other commands that she obeys at the same distance, do you use a different pitch or tone? She may just be able to hear these better.

Owning a senior can be tough, and it is easy to fall into the "poor old dog" routine of letting her get away with more. It is important not to let training slide. You may have to give commands louder, but expect them to be followed. You also have to adjust your behavior. Don't be afraid to tell people to back off. Smile and say that she just doesn't feel like meeting new people today. You may need to say her name before giving a command to get her attention. It will become more difficult for her to distiguish between your voice and all the other dog owners in the park. You will have to watch her closely for changes that need to be checked by a vet. You will also need to move her annual check-up to every 6 months.

When I went through all of this with Rosie, my lab/chow mix, I learned as much as possible on what was normal aging so that I could spot signs of trouble and be prepared for what was coming. There are great books and websites that will give you good information. Of course, your vet is the person to go to with most of your questions and concerns.

[april89]

Dogs dont WANT to be dominant over us, for a start they dont see us as being pack members in the way is meant by 'alpha pack theory' stuff.

I knew most don't but I never realised that it was so general.

I'll try to do most of the training over the x-mas hols as it will be a lot easier to have lots of shorter chunks then. Would any whistle work though or is it best to use a dog whistle? I try my hardest to vary our walk but this is the first winter where I've been able to drive. Is it seen as acceptable to park at enterances to footpaths though as otherwise you need to be able to walk to our local footpaths to use them.

Owdb1tch - I never realised that steroids could be so bad We we're told that obviously they wont be doing her kidneys any favour and may make her inclined to put on weight but I dont remember anything about such a serious effect on her. (we've always tried to say quality and not quantity.) I think I will need to go and become brave and ask for a referal now. She's such a part of the family and we hate seeing her when she's uncomfortable with her allergies.

vass1974 - I have wondered before as I've called her from a distance before and she was looking around but not certain that I was the correct source until I had crouched down and opened my arms at the same time as calling. Also it is getting easier to sneak into the house without her noticing that you've turned up initially - especially if she is sleeping. However, she still manages to notice the rustle of a plastic bag in the kitchen at just about anytime of day!

As an aside she has very bowed in legs and I'm inclined to think that she will get arthritis in her old age. At the minute we're trying to keep her at her correct weight to avoid extra strain on her joints but would longer more varied walks risk damage? Also, does cod liver oil help and would it likely affect her allergies? Fortunately she doesnt show any symptoms of it yet and the only time she walks funny is when she's picking her way through a path full of horsechestnuts! lol.

Thanks again everyone.

[emmabeth]

Have a look at the dominance thread stickied... its a bit of a revelation if you have never questioned the 'old skool' thinking.

Id use a gundog whistle, available online from gundog/gun shops, I wouldnt use one of the 'silent' dog whistles, they are just annoying and hard to get the same pitch each time.

Her eyesight may be perfectly fine.... dogs wont see and recognise a human that well at a distance if you are standing still, even if you are shouting.

Sighthounds have AMAZING sight and huge eyes, but they wont see a squatting rabbit if the wind is wrong, even if its quite close. Its movement they need and then they see you and will recognise that it IS you.

As far as correct weight goes.... how are you gauging that? Because vets are often too generous and the dog food packet feeding guidelines are atrocious (apologies if you really do have it sussed!), I keep my dogs very lean and hard, probably a little too lean for some peoples tastes but I go on how they behave as well and they are all (even the 12 year old) bounding out of their skins with energy!

There are lots of joint supplements, cod liver oil ISNT the best one, glucosamine/msm/chondroitin are better, Owdb1tch is yer lass for that sort of advice though

Id think that as long as you dont let her hurtle about and over do things, longer/varied walks wont do any harm, especially if she is the lighter side of the correct weight for a lab.

I would keep a dog like this VERY lean (yep, to the point where other people say 'gosh shes a bit thin), no 'padding' will help her, and keep her VERY fit, building it up gradually and doing a lot of swimming as well.

Avoid such things as thundering up and down hills or over rough ground, or up and down stairs, walking, trotting on softer ground and swimming is what she needs.

[Owdb1tch]

Do a Search on the steroids your doggie is on for a whole lot of information. Tis always best to go to the vet with the facts at your fingertips - they seem to sense it and you seldom need to use them, lol!

Steroids suppress the immune system among other things, and as allergy is an immune reaction, the condition seems to get better - but it hasn't, and will flare up as soon as the steroids stop. Meanwhile with the immune system out of action, other illnesses can get hold.

We have an ancient terrier on steroids, but she has cancer, and long-term side-affects are not a consideration, so they do have their uses. She has quality of life for the little life she has left.

But your dog is middle-aged and could have years ahead of her, with more sensitive medication.

Regarding the arthritis, I'd recommend getting homeopathic Rhus tox, Ruta graveolens and Arnica and giving initially twice and then once daily. It is brilliant, safe and free from side-effects. I get it in a liquid which is easier to give than tablets. By all means use nutritional supplements too - there is loads of stuff about to help arthritis.

Also have a chat with Dorwest Herbs on their helpline - they are very friendly and approachable - I use a lot of their products, which are licensed for veterinary use. Might help the 'allergy' too.

[april89]

I'm going to go to the vets very prepared!

Re the weight. She is quite a tall labrador and she weighs about 31kg which the vet said is quite good. Although her ribs arent obvious to sight they can be felt without having to apply any real pressure and she has a well defined waist. Her coat is shiny and she is playful and energetic and will happily keep going as long as we do (has come out when I've ridden before) although she might choose to sleep for a bit when she gets home! She could probably lose a little more but trying to get weight off of a labrador is like trying to stop the world from spinning.

Thanks for all your help.

xXx