Why are show lines hated so much.

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master2

Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by master2 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:08 am

Hi

I know im going to get a lot of people have a go at me for this so here you go.

I can not understand why show line GSD are so bad as I read in this post https://positively.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20286 I don't see it I see no difference in show and working when it comes to hips/legs they look the same when moving to me. I don't understand how they could be in pain or not be able to eat, play. I find the whole thing rather stupid. for instance some people think there in pain dose this look like the dog is in pain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzMH8dBCZaA or this https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10 ... =3&theater . I don't see how its bad they look fine to me. my reason for posting is that there is no way on earth people can say that working line dogs are the best my auntie has had GSD all her life her first was in 1980 and was a working line as in them days she was told the same that show line are awful so she got a working line her parents were hip scored and elbow scored and were eye tested and other health test's. the scores were low and she was from DDR and CZECH lines and the breeder also supplied to the police so my auntie thought she had a great dog, however she died at the age of 6 from hip dysplasia and was dragging her self around could not go out as she could not walk so my auntie decided to have her put down as it was devastating to watch. my auntie did not allow her to go up and down the stairs until she was one so my auntie did everything right. tow years later she got another working line from an ex police officer so again thought she had a great choice, he died at 3 from cancer he also had a hernia! her 3rd dog she had from another working kennel and he died at 8 from hip dyspepsia his mom hip score 0/0 = 0 and dad 4/2 =6 so again low hip scores. my auntie got fed up of being told that working lines are healthier and live longer and have better hips clearly not this is a pic of a working line but to me looks just like the show https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/437550.jpg . 4yrs later she got her 4th dog a show line from kesyra GSD and he died at the age of 13 from old age he only ever had one health problem and that was itchy skin (that why she feeds raw). every dog since then has been a show line GSD and they all have had long health lives there was only one that died at 8 from hip dyspepsia.

what im trying to say is yes the sloping back might not be to everyone's taste that's fine but don't say they cant play normal or eat or run cos they can and my aunties dogs were proof they all enjoyed meal time and never once seemed in pain when I was a girl they would run 4ever wanting me to play with them.

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Nettle
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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by Nettle » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:42 am

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everybody's opinion is of equal value. :)

So far as I am concerned, it's nothing to do with show or working lines and everything to do with conformation. The dogs are deformed. I cannot understand why people can't see that - you don't need a degree in biomechanics to understand why most of the weight on the forehand, a bent back, weak hips, wobbly hocks and overbent stifles equal unsoundness. And that's before they move.

It's unusual to see a photo of a GSD that has its mouth shut. Why do we think they are always panting, even when standing still? Maybe it is low-level pain.

The dogs in the video look appalling. The big adult can barely move.
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master2

Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by master2 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:03 pm

Hi Nettle

thanks for your opinion. as I like to hear what people think. could you show me a photo of a GSD that you would consider a good example so I can compare so I can see what you think is a good GSD. :)

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Nettle
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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by Nettle » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:37 pm

I haven't seen a good example of a GSD in many years. However if you look at some photos of huskies, or Belgian Shepherds, you can see the same basics but a much stronger and more natural conformation, still within the basic GSD format.
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master2

Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by master2 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:43 pm

Hi nettle

do you know anything about Northern Inuit's? and his behind looked like the shepherds from the 50's but I have never heard of the breed but they seem so friendly and good natured. :)

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Nettle
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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by Nettle » Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:25 am

If you do a Search on them, you'll find they are crosses between GSDs and various husky breeds. They are not truly established as a separate breed. Therefore there is a hotchpotch of characteristics to be inherited and it's pure luck whether you get the husky or the GSD nature, or an amalgamation of them.

They do look good. I know a few and they are handsome dogs.
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bendog
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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by bendog » Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:09 am

Not sure if photo will work but this is what I consider a good looking GSD https://www.facebook.com/OrmskirkDogWal ... =3&theater

My neighbours had traditional sloped back GSD's, police bred and considered healthy, and although one lived to 13, her back legs went so she could barely stand up and the other died when she was about 9 or 10.

It's not just GSDs - there are the same arguments against any breed where looks are desired over function e/g some bulldogs and pugs etc can hardly breathe due to flat faces!

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Re: Why are show lines hated so much

Post by Anatine » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:58 pm

Obviously not all show dogs are bad, you can find amazing healthy dogs, with great temperaments from amazing breeders. GSD are just contraversial, as they're not a healthy breed to begin with

To illustrate Nettles point of the difference between the GSD's conformation, and the more natural looking husky type dogs.
I found sound slow motion videos of a dog from each breed running.
I know one dog doesn't speak for the entire breed, and these dogs might not have even been in the same gait, but you can really see a difference in the way the back legs move
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1b8QsEnowPo
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xIERqgL6HVw
Comparing these two dogs, you can see the huskys legs move independently as they should, one then the other. The GSD does more of a bunny hop, moving both legs at once. This is due to the deformed hips.
Really, it's hard to get a good GSD, working or show. But the working are less likely to have such sloped backs, and are less likely to be so deformed.
A lot of dogs may not seem to be in pain when they are, because the pain starts from a young age, they live with it. Look at this very young boxer illustrating more symptoms of hip dysplacia
http://youtu.be/cnZm9c2GVaU
If you look at the video you posted, several of those dogs bunny hop, and have swinging hips too

Someone with a better eye, please correct me if these videos aren't the best, or my knowledge is off.

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Nettle
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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by Nettle » Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:44 am

Useful examples - thanks for finding those, Anatine :)

The trot is the gait at which we can best assess soundness. The few seconds of trot shown at the end of the GSD footage show clearly that one hindleg comes outside the foreleg and the other inside. A sound mover tracks each hind paw half to threequarters into the pawmarks of the forelegs.

The 'mermaid walk' demonstrated by the boxer puppy is prevalent in GSDs walking (and other breeds where unsound hips are present).
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Theo400

Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by Theo400 » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:55 pm

Hi Master2

I thought I would join the conversation as I own a half show half working line GSD. Theo runs a bit like the video above both his legs come forward when he runs but he dose not have sloped back. I would post a pic of him but I am also a member of the GSD forum and someone stole photos of him (someone hacked the forum) and I had a rather awful time so to protect Theo I don't post pic anymore. but he dose not move like the husky. to be quit honest GSD are not bred anywhere near the same so even a working line GSD would not look anything like what GSD should look like here's Horand a GSD bred and owned by the father of the breed max von stephanitz http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_ ... linksrhein. to be honest you will never find a GSD like this again as they are bred so differently now so my advice is go with the line you feel comfortable with, if you like the look of the show then great that's your opinion and your entitled to that just make sure you go to a good breeder. my auntie has working line and show line as she likes all GSD lines, my mom has Show and my uncle and cousin both have working line and there all happy with there GSD. I liked the all so wanted a mix of both hence why Theo is half of both. some people like nettle just prefer the working or straight backed dogs which is her opinion were you clearly like show line and that's great to. no one is saying that show lines cant be great dogs cos they can its just up to personal preference. regarding the pain I don't believe that but again that's my opinion and until I see proof on were it says there in pain then I wont believe that as all my aunties dogs and my moms were very healthy my mom has one know who is 14yrs and she is from absela the breeder you mentioned so absela aren't bad breeders but they breed for the show world which mean sloped back. and she very healthy.

get what type of shepherd you want just go to a good breeder. weather its show or working there both great. :D

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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by mum24dog » Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:08 am

Actually you do see working line GSDs that resemble that historical ink far more than the distorted version of the breed seen in the show ring. I know several from working European lines.
I dislike show bred dogs of any breed because once appearance according to arbitrary standards becomes the aim the original purpose and characteristics of the breed start to be lost.
Take the border collie for example - most show dogs wouldn't recognise a sheep if it was under their nose.
Labradors - do you prefer a huge waddling mass as seen in the ring or an athletic dog fit for a day's shoot?
Over coated American or English Cocker or feisty and fun loving working cocker?
As for the GSD even the working lines very rarely do their original job as there are other breeds that do it better, but they are used for other useful purposes, although not as much as previously as in some quarters the more agile Malinois is taking over because of the shortage of good GSDs.
Looks are only important if they affect the dog's ability to function, otherwise what a dog looks like is entirely irrelevant, which undermines the whole premise of the current show world.
Visit a working lurcher or terrier show and see the difference.

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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by WufWuf » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:25 am

On the subject of pain -

I believe that it's entirely possible for an animal to be in pain without any or very little clues to the observer. The reason I say this is that *I* am in pain a lot of the time due to a chronic illness, but you would not know it by looking at me. I don't go around grimacing and groaning even though I'm in pain as I'm used to experiencing some pain most of the time and I often do things that people would not think you could do while in pain.

It's only when the pain reaches a level that it not "normal" day-to-day pain that those who know me very well might notice I'm in pain, strangers would still not know. The only time a stranger would be able to tell I'm in pain would be if my pain level was reaching a 9 on the pain scale (10 is usually considered the level you will pass out at).
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules

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Nettle
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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by Nettle » Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:58 am

Good point, Wuf. And animals are programmed not to show pain because they risk attack, even from their own kind, if perceived to be weak. This is why we so often say 'vet check' when an animal shows odd behaviour or a sudden change in behaviour.

Sometimes giving an animal a (vet recommended) painkiller causes such a change in behaviour, and that's the proof the animal is normally in pain. However, painkillers long-term carry their own dangers, so it is best, having proved the pain exists, to try and either cure it or manage it another way.
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Theo400

Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by Theo400 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:11 pm

Hi

So Theo could be in pain and I would not know it as he dose run a bit like the shepherd in the video? :( but is always a happy little sandman. as this pain thing I am curious about. surely it is not good if there in pain.

now im worried about Theo. :cry:

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Nettle
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Re: Why are show lines hated so much.

Post by Nettle » Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:36 pm

Or he could be fine. If he seems a happy little soldier then he probably is :)
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