Melissa Alexander, author of "Click for Joy" wrote an article about dog training myths in BOTH training methods.
Dr. Valerie Tynes, DVM, wrote about the top ten myths that threaten dogs due to ignorance or poor information in 2008's Veterinary Medicine Magazine.
Dog Training Myths
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Dog Training Myths
Two very interesting articles there - thank you, Wicket 
I'd challenge a couple of points in the first one by saying: 1. Anyone is welcome to try and clicker-train my hounds
I promise it will show how trainers/behaviourists should not make blanket judgements until they have clicked at a wide variety of canine types, and 2. The comment on redirecting innate drives shows - similar inexperience 
Clicker-training is brilliant but it does not work for all dogs in all situations, and should never be "sold" as if it does.
I found the vet. article so hard to read because of the page layout that I didn't complete it, so can't offer any useful comments (insufficient reward, lol). But I might revisit it and have another go. I liked what I did manage to read.
I'd challenge a couple of points in the first one by saying: 1. Anyone is welcome to try and clicker-train my hounds
I promise it will show how trainers/behaviourists should not make blanket judgements until they have clicked at a wide variety of canine types, and 2. The comment on redirecting innate drives shows - similar inexperience Clicker-training is brilliant but it does not work for all dogs in all situations, and should never be "sold" as if it does.
I found the vet. article so hard to read because of the page layout that I didn't complete it, so can't offer any useful comments (insufficient reward, lol). But I might revisit it and have another go. I liked what I did manage to read.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
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Re: Dog Training Myths
Victoria Stilwell in her two blogs about dog training myths:
Fact vs. Fiction, Part 1
and
Fact vs. Fiction, Part 2
Nettle, now I'm curious on how you got your dogs off a squirrel chase...
Fact vs. Fiction, Part 1
and
Fact vs. Fiction, Part 2
Nettle, now I'm curious on how you got your dogs off a squirrel chase...
Re: Dog Training Myths
I don't get my dogs off a squirrel chase
They have two categories of creature - those they can chase and those they must not ever ever chase or even think about chasing.
Because they have the 'canchases' they are more amenable to obeying the 'mustn'tchases'.
Each 'mustn'tchase' is individually proofed, and horses have to be three-times proofed - the horse in the field, the horse being ridden and the horse pulling a vehicle, because the last two appear to a dog (and sometimes to other horses) as a prey animal in the act of being predated upon. In that case it is a dog's instinct to join in. And of course they must not.
I have A Command that means 'canchase' and A Command that means 'mustn'tchase' during the proofing period - after the proofing, I never use those commands, and nobody else knows them so they can never be 'poisoned' through misuse.
During the proofing period, I take great care to avoid unproofed 'mustn'tchases'.
It's a long job but it has to be done. And with a hunting hound, a clicker is never going to cut the mustard. There is no reward big enough that I can provide - except for allowing a 'canchase'.
In those circumstances where a 'canchase' might appear and it is unsafe to allow a chase, I deploy the Mark 1 dog lead. It would be confusing to the dog to allow 'sometimeschases' and weaken the 'mustn'tchase' and therefore once the lead goes on, they know that there will be no chasing.
They have two categories of creature - those they can chase and those they must not ever ever chase or even think about chasing.
Because they have the 'canchases' they are more amenable to obeying the 'mustn'tchases'.
Each 'mustn'tchase' is individually proofed, and horses have to be three-times proofed - the horse in the field, the horse being ridden and the horse pulling a vehicle, because the last two appear to a dog (and sometimes to other horses) as a prey animal in the act of being predated upon. In that case it is a dog's instinct to join in. And of course they must not.
I have A Command that means 'canchase' and A Command that means 'mustn'tchase' during the proofing period - after the proofing, I never use those commands, and nobody else knows them so they can never be 'poisoned' through misuse.
During the proofing period, I take great care to avoid unproofed 'mustn'tchases'.
It's a long job but it has to be done. And with a hunting hound, a clicker is never going to cut the mustard. There is no reward big enough that I can provide - except for allowing a 'canchase'.
In those circumstances where a 'canchase' might appear and it is unsafe to allow a chase, I deploy the Mark 1 dog lead. It would be confusing to the dog to allow 'sometimeschases' and weaken the 'mustn'tchase' and therefore once the lead goes on, they know that there will be no chasing.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Dog Training Myths
I hope I don't break any language rules, but I just wanted to say Nettle, you are SUCH a badass.
Re: Dog Training Myths
Hmmm.... sooo...
You possibly COULD clicker train your dogs... if you could provide 'canchase' as a reward on tap.
Butyacant... (well... ya... mmm no. That would be mean to bunnies in cages... scratch that idea!)..
The method is sound and will work I believe on any animal - the catch is you need to be able to provide the reward and the dog determines what is rewarding and thus what she will work for... if thats not something you can provide easily and repeatedly then you cannot use clicker training.
It is just one way of useing classical and operant conditioning though, there are many other ways and by using 'canchase' and proofing the 'cantchase' so that the animal knows 'cantchase' prey is never an option that would result in 'caught' (or inded 'chase') you are still using both those things... just in a more practical manner
I still havent found what Kelda deems worth the effort of engaging her brain - she likes food and play but utterly does NOT see why she ought to work for those and I am not willing to limit them so severely that she might think they were worth working for as I think that would be unfair.
Of course.... those dogs that clicker training is hard to apply to... often dont need it anyway. (Not always, but often).
You possibly COULD clicker train your dogs... if you could provide 'canchase' as a reward on tap.
Butyacant... (well... ya... mmm no. That would be mean to bunnies in cages... scratch that idea!)..
The method is sound and will work I believe on any animal - the catch is you need to be able to provide the reward and the dog determines what is rewarding and thus what she will work for... if thats not something you can provide easily and repeatedly then you cannot use clicker training.
It is just one way of useing classical and operant conditioning though, there are many other ways and by using 'canchase' and proofing the 'cantchase' so that the animal knows 'cantchase' prey is never an option that would result in 'caught' (or inded 'chase') you are still using both those things... just in a more practical manner
I still havent found what Kelda deems worth the effort of engaging her brain - she likes food and play but utterly does NOT see why she ought to work for those and I am not willing to limit them so severely that she might think they were worth working for as I think that would be unfair.
Of course.... those dogs that clicker training is hard to apply to... often dont need it anyway. (Not always, but often).
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Dog Training Myths
Noobs wrote:I hope I don't break any language rules, but I just wanted to say Nettle, you are SUCH a badass.
Thank you Noobs I am actually very much in favour of clicker training and finding the right reward for each dog, and what Emms says is spot-on. I have to think around the conventional/accepted to get what I want with mine that gives the reliability I need and still keeps to positive principles. In the case of my type of dog and their type of life, clickers ain't it, but we are comparatively unusual in the world of dogwork. For yer average pet dog and some areas of working eg Assistance, the clicker is brilliant. For giving underconfident dogs confidence and confused dogs clarity, it is wonderful.
I just won't have it that it suits all dogs in all situations, and I'm never afraid to say so.
And the reason it doesn't suit then isn't the clicker or the principles of operant conditioning - it's purely about the reward.A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
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Re: Dog Training Myths
APDT (Association of Pet Dog Trainers) has an article which talks about common dog problems (barking, marking, jumping, pulling, etc.) and the misconceptions surrounding these behaviors. Read here.
