'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

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JudyN
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'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by JudyN »

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/11 ... in-general (I wouldn't bother reading the comments, they're the usual claptrap.)

The study itself is pretty inconclusive - there were only 20 subjects who were probably not randomly selected, and they used an adapted child attachment measure which may or may not be relevant to dogs. However, the conclusions drawn are tentative, and it does raise some interesting thoughts about our relationship with our dogs. For instance, if your dog is thrilled to see you and tends to stay close to you, this could be an insecure attachment rather than a strong, healthy bond. But what I find interesting is the old chestnut of 'unconditional love'. The reporter (not the researchers) comments 'But you can always count on your dog for unconditional and uncomplaining love.'

Does your dog never complain? Mine certainly does if he's not happy with something I do (or don't do) - and this is good, because I can acknowledge and respect his feelings and take them into account. Does this concept of unconditional love come from relationships where the dog feels that he can't influence what happens so doesn't try, can't communicate with his owner, and clings to and tries to appease his owner because he has no other way of getting care and affection?

I just googled 'A dog will always love you" and got 1.73 million hits. One of these was 'A dog will always love you and never turn into a smart mouth back talking little asshole that you want to smack in the face.' Presumably this person has never had a puppy :lol: But we really do need to think hard about what we mean by 'love' here.
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Nettle
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by Nettle »

Not too much to say about the study - you've already said most of it :lol: but in a professional capacity I meet a lot of dogs that don't like their owners. You can't of course ever say that the reason the dog won't recall is that it doesn't like you.....sometimes the dogs try to get into my car. Rehome me please - I'm surrounded by idiots.

:roll: at the comment of hugging the dogs *sigh* we have a long way to go on that.

As for 'unconditional love' or even any kind of love, can a dog be capable of love? If so it can only love as a dog loves, which I would say is all wrapped up with safety, security and having its needs met. Human love projected onto dogs is IME a burden to them far more often than it is a pleasure. But that's a two-coffee-pot and whole cake discussion.
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gwd
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by gwd »

Nettle wrote:sometimes the dogs try to get into my car. Rehome me please - I'm surrounded by idiots.
I've been spending a lot of time thinking about a similar topic. as you might recall, I've been spending a lot of time in ringcraft of late. mostly working with other peoples dogs (cobblers kids, no shoes, yada yada)

professional handlers always seem quick to put a label on dogs that don't want to behave in the ring. 'spoiled, stubborn or 'mamma's boy/girl' are the ones I hear most often. mostly these pro's don't spend much, if any time to first establish a bond with the dog they're going to be taking in the ring. some of this is arrogance (I can make any dog behave and look good) and some really is due to lack of time. if the owner doesn't allow access, there just simply isn't time for any relationship building.

anyhoo, two dogs I've been working with have been labeled as spoiled mamma's girls. I've had very good luck with one of them. the other, less so because she has some specific separation anxiety (separation from her owner). i'll refer to them as 'a' and 'b' in order. btw, they are litter mates

with both girls, they lead really full, enriched lives. they have a very loving home and the owner does many things with them such as agility, tracking, and nose work........... for me to make the show ring 'fun' has been a challenge. they get all sorts of individual attention and do many things that are treat laden. ........all of which is way more fun than standing still in a stack and briefly running around the ring.

with 'a' I first worked on creating a bond.........then we made a game of the stacking (with clicker). she shows beautifully now with a loose lead and we're working on getting her to hold the stack longer. when she sees me she is clearly happy about us getting to play the 'show game' .......this girl also has a very good work ethic.

the other girl 'b' is still a work in progress. when I started working her she'd have her tail down and was clearly stressed. we've been playing games where we run away from mom and she gives me attention and after a quick treat, part of her reward is to run BACK to mom. .........she's still showing a bit of stress but now her tail is up and wagging .......she's also happy to see me and wants her turn. however, when it comes she kinda worries about the separation. I only work her in very short sessions and both myself and her owner are going to be ok with the notion that she might just not be able to be shown. we're going to continue trying to practice with her and allow her to progress at her own speed and on her terms.

I don't view either dog as spoiled ........it's just that the other stuff they do with their mom is really fun! if i'm to expect a sparkling performance from them then I've got to really up MY reward system and make ringcraft fun too! that's not the dogs fault if i'm not making it engaging and interesting enough.

another group of dogs I work with are housed in more of a pack environment like the kennels of old. they have large paddocks to run in but, like the pack of hounds in days of yore, get less 'one-on-one' attention. they are well exercised, and well fed........ and live happy lives with their group. these dogs are far easier to show. once you build some trust, and provided they're stable of temperament and don't wilt by being separated from their pack............they are like sponges. they love the individual attention and will give you full cooperation and attention because they're getting something that isn't part of their everyday lives..........the ring becomes 'special'.

we've changed our relationships with dogs over time........long ago, dogs were very much part of our everyday life on a farm. they may well have slept in a barn or with the stock.......but from sun up to sundown, they were with their people. ........then as we became less rural, dogs were often relegated to yards while people went off to work......large dogs were often never allowed in the house. .........now we've again circled around and many of us consider dogs part of the family.

i'm wondering nettle if some of the dogs you see that would really like to load up in your car are rather like the second group I work with.......and they are just so thrilled that you're providing something they don't get in their normal lives......you're giving them complete and total attention and they're deciding that's pretty damn cool!
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bendog
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by bendog »

The concept of love applied to dogs is something that really really grates on me. My OH "loves" the dogs, yet treats them like teddybears, his mother "loved" her dogs, yet never put in a moment of housetraining or indeed any training, or walks. I see people everyday that "love" their dogs, and naively assume the dogs love them too, yet a lot spend too much time crated or kenneled, or get no mental stimulation other than walks.

There are great owners, and really bad owners (and way back at the bottom of the scale, abusive owners) but there are also millions of "average" owners, who make sure the dog is warm, fed and walked, but little else. Even most great owners won't be able to provide an ideal life for the dog, they just make a hell of an effort to try. Eg Charlies previous owner - where does he fall? Charlie was obviously well socialised, made a fuss of, and had some training (housetrained, sit and recall at least), and walked (probably not enough). I'm sure he was pretty happy overall. Yet he was also grossly obese, spent a lot of time on his own (with his sister) and probably only got half hour to an hour of exercise a day. He was really excited and happy to leave with me, and jump in the car, and has never seemed to miss his last owner. I hope, he is as happy, if not happier now. He certainly seems to love life. But if I am being totally honest, if a stranger came, and put a lead on him, he would probably happily try to get in their car :lol: :roll:

I'm sure most people who assume their dogs love them and never complain just have never learnt to listen to their dog.

And it does seem to me that with the study they carried out (havent read it in detail but have a passing familiarity of the methods used with children) means that you kind of can't win! If the dog is comfortable when you leave, then it doesn't love you. If it gets upset when you leave, then it is insecure!

I also do wonder if those of us who do a lot with their dogs inadvertently create needy dogs (or maybe thats just me?)
Ben and Poppy are very "owner dependent" - not separation anxiety per se, but they like to be near me, and especially in situations that are frightening for them they rely on me more. If they get bored, they come and ask me to play. Charlie and Sasha would be far more likely to just accept being left alone, and I wonder if thats because it's what they grew up experiencing? An element of learned helplessness maybe?
Last edited by bendog on Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nettle
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

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I deliberately bond my dogs to me to the highest degree I can manage, because out working I sometimes have to ask them to do something that they would prefer not to do e.g. don't chase that, don't go there. But I also put in time to make sure they can be comfortable without me for those times when I have to leave them. So yes: I can see what you are saying, Bendog, and it's quite a demand to make of a dog. I need 'owner dependent' if I am to have the standard of co-operation that I want. A big responsibility for an owner.

Gwd, I think you are right and it is because I am calm that stressed dogs want to get into my car.

I wish people would care for their dogs rather than 'love' them. They can 'love' them after they have seen to their needs. Fat chance for many.
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JudyN
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by JudyN »

There was a programme on TV last night about unusual animal bonds - a group of tiger, lion and bear who were inseparable, an orang utan with a 'pet' dog, a cat who suckled ducklings :wink: a lion who mothered an oryx, capuchins who 'adopted' a marmoset... (not all of these in an unnatural captive setting). The word 'love' to describe the bond between these pairs was used several times, despite the programme purporting to be scientific :wink:

In one of John Katz's memoirs, he describes a labrador he had that for reasons I can't remember, he decided would be happier with another owner, so rehomed her to a friend. This particular lab loved her new owner and new home, and showed no signs of missing John. Likewise, when she came to stay with John for a few days, she was thrilled to see him again. She was (I assume) happy and well adjusted, but John, despite being grateful that she was like this and understanding that dog 'affection' isn't like that of humans, found her ease of separation difficult on an emotional level. In many ways, it's us who are the needy ones.

Jasper is over-bonded to me, I know. It's great in that he will stay near me on walks, but I've never even left him for a night, and if I suggest we should try it sometime OH is horrified as he's sure he'd get no sleep. I wouldn't dare leave him in kennels because I'd be so worried about the state he'd be in by the time I collected him. This is partly his nature, and partly my (unintentional) doing, but he wasn't the sort of dog you could safely leave with others when he was younger.
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bendog
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by bendog »

I wish people would care for their dogs rather than 'love' them. They can 'love' them after they have seen to their needs. Fat chance for many.
You put it better than I could. It's very selfish and egocentric of us to expect unconditional love from our dogs, when we claim to "love" our dogs yet too often only take from them, and totally fail to give them much back in return. To me, if I say I love my dogs, that means I want what is best for the dogs, not just what us best for me. And even then I'm still ultimately a selfish human. If an absolutely perfect home came up for Pops, that would allow her to hunt, and work and have the time and attention she needs, I would still struggle to let her go.
gwd
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by gwd »

Nettle wrote:I deliberately bond my dogs to me to the highest degree I can manage, because out working I sometimes have to ask them to do something that they would prefer not to do e.g. don't chase that, don't go there.
also, there are the times when you're asking your dog to do something that is scary..........you have to have a track record of being dependable and have build the trust so that your dog knows you're not asking them to do something that will get them hurt.

if i'm hanging on the edge of a cliff and someone reaches out a hand and says they'll pull me up..........I damn sure need to trust that the person is capable before I release my hold and put my faith in their outstretched hand!
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jacksdad
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by jacksdad »

I honestly would rather have Jack trust me and feel safe with me and when I am around be relaxed, than have him "just" love me.
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by Ari_RR »

gwd wrote:if i'm hanging on the edge of a cliff and someone reaches out a hand and says they'll pull me up..........I damn sure need to trust that the person is capable before I release my hold and put my faith in their outstretched hand!
Hmmm... i wonder how my Ari-boy would react.. . probably would put his scariest face on and chase the would be saviour the hell away from hanging on the edge Papa :lol:

Agree on trust.
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Nettle
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Re: 'Your dog probably doesn't like you'

Post by Nettle »

jacksdad wrote:I honestly would rather have Jack trust me and feel safe with me and when I am around be relaxed, than have him "just" love me.

You know, I think that is as near as our dogs can get to loving us, and it's a pretty big deal for them.
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