Karen Overall's protocols

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JudyN
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Karen Overall's protocols

Post by JudyN »

Protocol for Deference

Protocol for Relaxation

I contacted Jasper's first behaviourist (APDT) today as she runs a course for 'Grumpy Growlers' and I wondered if it could help with his attitude towards young unneutered males. She didn't think they would be appropriate, but recommended the above protocols. I wondered what people's opinion of them was?

To me, the Protocol for Deference looks rather like NILIF. And I feel that when Jasper asks for something, he already does say please - with his expression, with his body language. I do sometimes ask for a sit or a nose touch, but don't feel the need to do more. And the idea of not petting the dog until the dog 'defers'... uurgh, I just don't really like the term :x

The Protocol for Relaxation: I can see that it would be good to work on Jasper's obedience when we're out and about - if sitting became a default whenever he saw any dog then it could help with his issues, and he could certainly do with getting more self-control when things get a bit 'exciting'. But the daily lists of tasks look awfully long and I'm not sure they take into account just how a lurcher's brain works, and how easily it stops working... :lol: Still, we can take it at our own pace. And of course, lurchers aren't naturals at 'sit' so we may need to adjust for that too.

Any thoughts about these protocols in general?
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Nettle
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by Nettle »

Only had time to read the first one, and yes, while much of the preamble is good, the programme is NILIF by a softer name. And as you so rightly say, JudyN, dogs have a variety of ways of asking for what they want so why would we DEMAND FOR THE REST OF ITS LIFE a bodily movement it would never otherwise perform in a socially communicative context? Why not just learn to read the body language it already employs to ask us for what it wants? Which remains subtle and polite as long as we listen.


Edited to say - having read the second - save your money, Judy.
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by JudyN »

Nettle wrote:why would we DEMAND FOR THE REST OF ITS LIFE a bodily movement it would never otherwise perform in a socially communicative context? Why not just learn to read the body language it already employs to ask us for what it wants? Which remains subtle and polite as long as we listen.
Thanks Nettle - you've confirmed my gut feeling.

When his second behaviourist came round (the first having more or less given up :evil: ), Jasper barked once to ask to go into the garden and a few minutes later barked twice to be let in (his standard code). The behaviourist suggested we should teach a different method of asking to go out and in as barking was a bit rude and demanding. Er, no, it was a clear communication and, of course, lurchers don't bark without good reason - they don't just do it for the fun of it. I found it baffling that she thought we should rig up a bell system or something.
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Nettle
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by Nettle »

Extraordinary, isn't it? After all - dogs bark. It's what they do. And if a dog learns to 'ask' by barking once or twice - what's not to like?
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by JudyN »

Maybe it's the same as people who don't like their dogs sniffing other dogs' bums because it's rude.... (and as for those naughty spaniel girls who roll over onto their backs and expose themselves at the drop of a lead, well - they're shameless hussies :lol:
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minkee
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by minkee »

I've met that "Oh OSCAR! Don't be so RUDE!" type, it confuses me no end :lol:

I wish you all the luck in the world finding a behaviourist that understands, Jasper, if not least because I think you might need it. He is a special boy and no mistake!

OH, while we're on the subject - the last few nights Breeze has been restless on an evening. This coincides with us getting a batch of pre-mixed minces. I wonder if they're giving him an uncomfortable stomach? And also wondered if the same might be true of Jasper and his nightly outings / whinge sessions.
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by JudyN »

minkee wrote:I wish you all the luck in the world finding a behaviourist that understands, Jasper, if not least because I think you might need it.
You know, really, he's not that bad. It's not unusual for dogs to take a dislike to certain other dogs and if it does happen because I was too slow to spot the other dog, he comes away very quickly. I sort of have a feeling for what I need to do (avoidance, treating at a comfortable distance, encouraging a better ability to listen to me on walks), but also that a dislike of young entire dogs is probably a very natural, hard-wired thing and he might grow out of it faster than I can train him out of it. Doesn't stop me looking for anything that might work though! :D

I've looked for a correlation between food and night-time garden trips/whingeing but haven't spotted any. I think he just wakes up and thinks 'While I'm awake I might as well have a wee. Muuuuuuuuummmmmmm!!!!' :lol:
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by minkee »

Oh I'm sure you're right! I just meant that any approach or solutions have to take his personality into account, and most trainers (or at least stories of trainers that I hear) tend to have a 'Well this is the way its done and this is the way we're going to do it' attitude.
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by JudyN »

Ah, I see... I thought you meant he really needed a behaviourist! :lol: I wonder how many behaviourists hear 'Ah, but my dog is special, he's different' and roll their eyes.

I don't think I'm cut out for regimented training, anyway. I tried it in the garden this afternoon, getting him to sit and wait, then kicking his ball but not letting him chase it till I released him. The first time he went anyway once I'd kicked it but then stalled and looked confused, the second time he did it really well, and then I thought 'What's the fun of not chasing the ball till it's stopped moving?' and went back to our normal game :lol:
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MPbandmom
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by MPbandmom »

JudyN wrote:I don't think I'm cut out for regimented training, anyway. I tried it in the garden this afternoon, getting him to sit and wait, then kicking his ball but not letting him chase it till I released him. The first time he went anyway once I'd kicked it but then stalled and looked confused, the second time he did it really well, and then I thought 'What's the fun of not chasing the ball till it's stopped moving?' and went back to our normal game :lol:
I had a trainer suggest this with Sky. I understand the concept that it teaches self control, but it seems awfully cruel to a dog who loves/lives to play fetch. I have never had the heart to make her sit and wait for the ball to land. (I have also never felt inclined to sacrifice my shoulder to such a stunt although the trainer did suggest starting slowly with just rolling the ball in front of her.)

I was also watching something about training search and resuce dogs and they said that they don't want dogs that want to play fetch. They want dogs who want to seek. Chase and Find are two distinct skills. One day, Sky lost her fetch ball at the dog park. Since then, I keep forgetting to collect another ball to put into the chuckit. So, before we can play fetch in the mornings now, we have to play find it. Sky is skilled at ball finding as well as ball fetching. She has even been known to dive into a bush beside a tennis court and come out with a ball. :lol: :lol:

Enough time has elapsed since supper. Time to go play some evening fetch with Sky.
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by JudyN »

MPbandmom wrote: I was also watching something about training search and resuce dogs and they said that they don't want dogs that want to play fetch.
A very important distinction with explosives-detection dogs!
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by Sanna »

I agree, it does look very NILIF. And to not allow your dog to ask for a cuddle I think is downright ridiculous, surely anyone (human or canine) should be able to do that? Why can't you just teach a 'that's enough/ not now' command..?
I'm thinking about volunteering Precious as a guinea pig for the daily task program tho, purely out of curiosity and as we are working on a more solid sit and down anyway, so can't do any harm ;) I'm not sure if I'm cut out for following something that regimented neither tho, we might just both become very bored.. And being bored definitely does not promote relaxation for this little bugger :lol:
But it would be interesting to see whether it would have any effect whatsoever on the way he behaves in general. I'll keep you posted :D
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by ClareMarsh »

MPbandmom wrote:
JudyN wrote:I don't think I'm cut out for regimented training, anyway. I tried it in the garden this afternoon, getting him to sit and wait, then kicking his ball but not letting him chase it till I released him. The first time he went anyway once I'd kicked it but then stalled and looked confused, the second time he did it really well, and then I thought 'What's the fun of not chasing the ball till it's stopped moving?' and went back to our normal game :lol:
I had a trainer suggest this with Sky. I understand the concept that it teaches self control, but it seems awfully cruel to a dog who loves/lives to play fetch. I have never had the heart to make her sit and wait for the ball to land. (I have also never felt inclined to sacrifice my shoulder to such a stunt although the trainer did suggest starting slowly with just rolling the ball in front of her.)
I do this with Ted but what I do it roll ball A which he is told to leave at a slowish speed, then before it's even stopped I roll ball B much faster and send him after that. You can then build from there etc to ball A starts being rolled faster and faster :D I always make ball B more exciting though so it is always worth ignoring the ball that mum tells him to :wink:
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jacksdad
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by jacksdad »

JudyN wrote:Protocol for Deference

Protocol for Relaxation

I contacted Jasper's first behaviourist (APDT) today as she runs a course for 'Grumpy Growlers' and I wondered if it could help with his attitude towards young unneutered males. She didn't think they would be appropriate, but recommended the above protocols. I wondered what people's opinion of them was?

To me, the Protocol for Deference looks rather like NILIF. And I feel that when Jasper asks for something, he already does say please - with his expression, with his body language. I do sometimes ask for a sit or a nose touch, but don't feel the need to do more. And the idea of not petting the dog until the dog 'defers'... uurgh, I just don't really like the term :x

The Protocol for Relaxation: I can see that it would be good to work on Jasper's obedience when we're out and about - if sitting became a default whenever he saw any dog then it could help with his issues, and he could certainly do with getting more self-control when things get a bit 'exciting'. But the daily lists of tasks look awfully long and I'm not sure they take into account just how a lurcher's brain works, and how easily it stops working... :lol: Still, we can take it at our own pace. And of course, lurchers aren't naturals at 'sit' so we may need to adjust for that too.

Any thoughts about these protocols in general?
what is it with Vet behaviorists and NILIF protocols? Dr. Dodman, Dr. Yin, and Dr. Overall (at least) all seem to have some variation of it. while they have all been HIGHLY instrumental in helping the "positive revolution" so to speak, you would think they would have moved on to better options by now. Though to be fair, Dr. Overalls updated works is just now being released so I would have to buy it to see if she still recommends it or if she has progressed to better ways.

Anyway...my two cents....

First, we need to keep in mind, that the above protocols are taken from a book published in 1997 and a lot of progresses has been made since then in our knowledge and understanding. In reading the protocols, you can see where Dr. Overall was clearly moving in the right direction, but was still influenced by the "old ways". So, when reading the protocols due keep in mind that while they probably were a breath of fresh air in 1997, by today's standards....some of what she wrote could be successfully argued in my opinion as being out dated.

It might be highly presumptuous of me not being a vet or vet behaviorist, but I would consider much of what she put into the relaxation protocol explanation as out dated. The idea is still valid, helping a anxious dog over come anxiety and relax or help a dog without an "off button" relax is spot on. Parts of the protocol may even still be valid (the part where you ask the dog to lay down while you provide different stimuli to the dog....but I disagree with some of the one size fits all explanations of why a dog isn't responding and disagree with some of the advice for what to do in that situation. But again, lets not forget we have 15 years of advances in knowledge, understanding and improvement in the "positive world" to draw on that did not exist for the average person when this was first published in 1997.

The point of the relaxation protocol isn't to improve obedience or to teach obedience, rather to try and help a dog that is anxious to relax in the face of various stimuli. OR if anxiety isn't an issue, but the lack of an "off switch" is....to teach the dog to turn off and relax in the face of various stimuli.

However, as our understanding of Classical Conditioning (and counter conditioning) improves, I can't help but think that while the protocol might have been cutting edge 15 years ago, that today it would be much simpler, easier and maybe even more effective to follow a protocol that takes into account thresholds, stress management, and the proper application of Classical Conditioning, or counter conditioning if you are trying to change an existing emotional association.

Sooooo, Judy...all that to say this. Unless Jasper is having a hard time relaxing, I am not sure how the relaxation protocol will help with your main concern...how he responds to young intact males. Others may disagree, but I would be inclined to say it won't. As for the other protocol, well you know my feeling on NILIF.
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Re: Karen Overall's protocols

Post by Sarah83 »

I've kind of used the protocol for relaxation to help teach Spen self control. It's been absolutely fantastic for doing that and I certainly wouldn't throw the whole idea away because some of what is written is outdated. I sort of adapted it to suit what I wanted though. Rather than Spen simply lying there (he prefers to be in a down and I see no reason to insist on a sit) while I did stuff around him, which seems a very boring exercise for both dog and handler, we turned it into more of a game. I wasn't after relaxation so much as him learning to control himself around exciting triggers so I'd often release him from the mat to get a toy I'd thrown or treat I'd dropped or just to come have fun with me for a minute or two before sending him back to his mat for some more self control work. It's actually a lot of fun for both of us. I know I enjoy it and given the fact I can't even put the towel we use as a mat on the floor before he's trying to get on it I assume he does too :lol:

But I wouldn't expect it to help with Jaspers attitude towards young, intact males or anything like that. And I think the way it's written is too regimented and robotic for it to be a fun exercise for most people and dogs without being adapted in some way.
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