New BAT theory

[runlikethewind]

To Noobs - did I just quote and reply to my own post? Silly me! I didn't know I've enjoyed talking about BAT and and 'chatting' about it and other behaviour modification methods. If that means I come back round to earlier thoughts/ideas, oh well. That's a good thread I guess.

[runlikethewind]

To Horace's Mum - I certainly agree there has to be a connection between the dog and the owner before you can start anything form of programme. Relaxing time and initial avoidance, making good choices and clicker fun and games etc make this happen.

[runlikethewind]

To Mattie.. I can't always work with the quotes so here I go without them: With BAT, the dog walks forward of his own accord, not pulling forward to have a go, just walking forward, usually in front of the owner as I mostly see on the vids. He's not forced into the situation. Same for LAT, we can sit and look at people walking by without leash tension. If there is leash tension (ie I want to leave, or I want to aggressively pull forwards not just being inquisitive) then something is not right and the dog needs to be moved away.

Also the same point I mentioned before about not all dogs wanting to flee - not all dogs want to keep away from that that frightens them. I wish they would.. then we'd not have the barking and lunging! Some want the trigger to move away and are quite offensive in their fear.

It is an interesting point you make about not teaching or rewarding/praising tolerance and by just being the dog's 'guardian angel', the dog will be able to look at the thing it fears and the fears will reduce. I guess you're not a fan of desensitisation?

I think in general it would be great for newbies looking for advice on here about fearful dogs that it is laid out clearly, more clearly than maybe at the mo, that there are two stages. But that people MUST come back after 1-2 weeks of avoidance let's say and details of another programme will be given. It does seem that some of the trainers don't believe in any of the programmes and that avoidance, trust, etc will be enough (and will takes ages, years etc) I know that sounds very prescriptive but it would seem to make sense to do this so that people come back and carry on.

[GundogGuy]

I wouldn't advise anyone on an internet forum to use a tool like BAT unless I was sure of the recipients capabilities, I'd advise them to find a practitioner but then that's just me... I wouldn't try BAT myself until I have a greater understanding of it... But if the promotional vids are anything to go by coupled with the available explanations, then I can see the benefits of having it in the toolbox...

[runlikethewind]

Yes I agree. BAT needs good understanding. But basic counter conditiioning can be explained over email or internet forum or at least you'd point the person in the direction of some recommended books or vids. Maybe you'd also suggest some modification to the diet as well which I know goes on here sometimes. Even suggesting for example a small cup full of carb 2 hours after each meal to raise serotonin levels, a vit B complex for stress and maybe Serene-ums or other such tablets for as long as possible to be given each day during the destress period and then into the training.

[jacksdad]

I wouldn't advise anyone on an internet forum to use a tool like BAT unless I was sure of the recipients capabilities, I'd advise them to find a practitioner but then that's just me... I wouldn't try BAT myself until I have a greater understanding of it... But if the promotional vids are anything to go by coupled with the available explanations, then I can see the benefits of having it in the toolbox...

sound advice gundog...I am going to have to get the video my self as I have only watched it once and there was a lot of info in it. I tried to share my memories as accurately as possible, but it is also possible I misremembered or misunderstood something having only watched the DVD once.

I hope at the very least people come away from this thread with the understanding that within the scope of the concepts of positive reinforcement there are many, many ways to approach a problem/issue and again within the scope of positive reinforcement concepts, there is almost no wrong answer because you tweak the tried and true to your dog and if that doesn't work, think out side the box.

Now....who wants to discuss Jean Donaldson's ideas/thoughts/methods for dealing with reactive dogs .... just kidding....my head still hurts from all the info packed into just the first DVD of her two day seminar DVD set . She talks fast, uses lots of geeky terms and acronyms, be awhile before I am ready to that discussion.

[runlikethewind]

Ha! I have Jean Donaldson's Fight book from ages ago. The language is very heavy going.

[Mattie]

To Mattie.. I can't always work with the quotes so here I go without them: With BAT, the dog walks forward of his own accord, not pulling forward to have a go, just walking forward, usually in front of the owner as I mostly see on the vids. He's not forced into the situation. Same for LAT, we can sit and look at people walking by without leash tension. If there is leash tension (ie I want to leave, or I want to aggressively pull forwards not just being inquisitive) then something is not right and the dog needs to be moved away.

In the clip I saw the dog was showing signs of stress in the way he held his body, when he showed the other signs he was upping the stress signals.

You seem to think that when we remove a dog from being so close to what he fears they don't look at the other dog, they do, if they don't look they will never realised that the other dog is not a scary monster. All LAT does is bring the scary monster to the attention of the dog, that may suit some dogs but it can make others a lot worse. A dog needs to see other dogs so they can work out that they are not scary monsters. Like you I can sit and look at other dogs "At a distance my dog feels safe" with a loose lead and a relaxed dog, because I am at my dog's safe distance the lead never gets tense so I don't have to take my dog away. If that happened I would be putting my dog under too much pressure.

Also the same point I mentioned before about not all dogs wanting to flee - not all dogs want to keep away from that that frightens them. I wish they would.. then we'd not have the barking and lunging! Some want the trigger to move away and are quite offensive in their fear.

Gracie never wanted to run away, she would always attack another dog, if she couldn't attack she would attack one of my other dogs or myself.

It is an interesting point you make about not teaching or rewarding/praising tolerance and by just being the dog's 'guardian angel', the dog will be able to look at the thing it fears and the fears will reduce. I guess you're not a fan of desensitisation?

You are reading into my posts what isn't there, it depends on the dog, there is always a way round the problems. Desensitisation has it's place but it doesn't work for everything and if I can do it another way without putting stress on my dog then I will use it. Many of my dogs have been abused, if you try and desensitise them they panic, Joe was very good at panicking. It took Gracie 3 months to feel safe with Merlin and Joe so I could leave them in the same room for 3 minutes.

I think in general it would be great for newbies looking for advice on here about fearful dogs that it is laid out clearly, more clearly than maybe at the mo, that there are two stages. But that people MUST come back after 1-2 weeks of avoidance let's say and details of another programme will be given. It does seem that some of the trainers don't believe in any of the programmes and that avoidance, trust, etc will be enough (and will takes ages, years etc) I know that sounds very prescriptive but it would seem to make sense to do this so that people come back and carry on.

That may have worked for you but it will put many people off, in fact I am not sure there is 2 stages, you are the only person to have said this. Give too much information or give the idea that once they are through one stage there is more will put many people off and they may go to someone who uses harsh methods like prong and shock collars. Again you are reading into posts what is not there, the very few trainers on here are open minded, most of the members are like me, just a dog owner who has learnt by experience.

Yes I agree. BAT needs good understanding. But basic counter conditiioning can be explained over email or internet forum or at least you'd point the person in the direction of some recommended books or vids. Maybe you'd also suggest some modification to the diet as well which I know goes on here sometimes. Even suggesting for example a small cup full of carb 2 hours after each meal to raise serotonin levels, a vit B complex for stress and maybe Serene-ums or other such tablets for as long as possible to be given each day during the destress period and then into the training.

Never heard of a cup of carbs 2 hours after each meal, that would mean 6 meals a day for my dogs. From my own experience things like Serene-up doesn't help training, they do help with noise sensitive dogs and helps them cope with the noise. They may help with some stress but for most I have found it better for the dog to be given the time and space to destress normally. No matter what we take ourselves and give our dogs they do affect the brain and how they think.

I hope at the very least people come away from this thread with the understanding that within the scope of the concepts of positive reinforcement there are many, many ways to approach a problem/issue and again within the scope of positive reinforcement concepts, there is almost no wrong answer because you tweak the tried and true to your dog and if that doesn't work, think out side the box.

This is what we keep saying Jacksdad,`there are so many possiblities with positive training but we do need to use our brains to work them out at times.

[jacksdad]

I hope at the very least people come away from this thread with the understanding that within the scope of the concepts of positive reinforcement there are many, many ways to approach a problem/issue and again within the scope of positive reinforcement concepts, there is almost no wrong answer because you tweak the tried and true to your dog and if that doesn't work, think out side the box.

This is what we keep saying Jacksdad,`there are so many possibilities with positive training but we do need to use our brains to work them out at times.

I was paraphrasing you because I felt it was worth repeating since the thread had that winding down feel and didn't want that point to be lost 10 pages back.

While this has all be interesting, Noobs is right...it does feel like we are starting to go in circles so thought it was a good sort of "last" post for me. Not sure there is much more I can contribute to this topic at this time without just saying what I have already said all over again.

I think I also referenced the idea of "a stage 2" but this was more to convey the idea that there is often a common starting point for everyone, but then as your dog progresses or not and you gain a better understanding of your dog, you tweak the "program" to meet the dogs current needs. The other concept I was trying to get across with the "stage 2" reference was you don't put the cart before the horse. If for example your dog needs the Watch command, but hasn't learned it yet, then don't put your dog into a position that he needs to be looking at you, but hasn't a clue about what watch means yet. At this "stage" you continue to avoid. Sorry if I made it sound like I was suggesting we should start labeling and creating stages that people need to follow. As you point out, too many problems with explaining things in those terms.

[runlikethewind]

Well yes the discussion is winding down and I hope in raising it, some people might be keen to look into BAT; others not. The discussion was not supposed to be one of digs, but of learning. However Mattie and somewhat towards Noobs too, I'd like to mention your little digs towards me. I have remained tolerant and calm (and ignored them; did you notice?) by your rebuffs and matter of fact statements which don't really make me want to carry on discussing this interesting subject but I carried on nevertheless! I really didn't like the highlights of errors made in not quoting Mattie properly, of over complicating the matter (why not tell that to Grisha?) or returning to previous points (going round in circles) by Noobs. I don't think they're really necessary or relevant. Mattie, I accept you are known as the most direct speaking on here.This thread was raised as a nice discussion - a chance to learn about a 'new' technique and discuss older techninques.

I'm sure I'm going to get a raft of replies now, probably telling me I have read into things that are not there and a bunch of cyber roses (not needed, thanks) - that's fine but I know how I read things on emails and forums and you have to be careful how nice or not nice you come across. I've been guilty of it myself, I can tell you. But this was a great discussion interspersed with strange digs. I love this place, not least for the amazing help I have received in relation to my first dog's aggression towards us (now 99.9% resolved). I'm sure you know that. It's taken a great deal of writing and rewriting this note to make sure it comes across properly and carefully.

Thanks for discussing it and for all the ideas.

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/bat/

I know the BAT link has been posted before to the DVDS etc but I found the above link - which explains how BAT can be used during normal walks - ie not for set ups.

Ps the carb thing (it's a very small cup (2oz, just a tablespoon full really) of carb after each meal and the vit b complex - you might like to look into it Mattie? You never know there might be something in it for you and your dogs.

[Noobs]

You can say I was having a go at you, if that was your perception then that's how you feel and that's valid. However it was incredibly frustrating to feel like we were talking in circles. You were so engrossed in talking about it you replied to your own post, you didn't even notice that the point you were replying to was a point you yourself had made.

BAT is incredibly interesting and no doubt will work wonders on many dogs. The point I'm making is that the most important thing to take out of this discussion is that we as owners must know our dogs and must learn how to read them. You can go through the mechanics of BAT and not do a single ounce of good if it's the wrong method for a particular dog. Or, going even further into it, if it's the wrong method for a particular dog at a particular moment.

[Mattie]

The only person having a dig was you runlikethewind, as well as putting things that I am supposed to think as if I was saying them when I wasn't. I find you last post very insulting to both Noobs and me, you have on several occasions been down right rude in your posts.

Yes you are reading into posts things which are not there, you have also accused us of things that are only in your mind, nobody else has read them the way you have, to everyone else we were just having a discussion which anyone who is a member can join in. I won't bother to reply to your posts again in case I get accused of attacking you again.

[runlikethewind]

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but for the amenable contributors here (I mean amenable to new ideas....) here is some valuable information on BAT which I'm very pleased to be able to share here. I wonder if the rest are suffering from a sort of Münchausen syndrome by proxy affliction towards their pets or maybe they just don't want to hear of new ideas. All I can say is, if they've been avoiding for so long and their dogs are still the same, is it time to try something else in the training toolbox maybe?

"I'm the co-moderator of the BAT list (functionalrewards) and have used BAT with tremendous success on my human aggressive dog. Grisha Stewart developed the BAT protocol, which is very flexible, using negative reinforcement (removal from an averse stimulus). LAT is based on positive reinforcement (delivery of a treat). The point of BAT is to engage the dog with the trigger (the averse stimulus) and the point of LAT is to enable the dog to ignore the trigger in favor of a fun game with the handler.
The LAT game can be used as a first step in BAT (which stands for Behavior Adjustment Training), especially when establishing a threshold distance at which the dog can be in the presence of the trigger without escalating to an explosion.
LAT is a great game to play in stimulating environments with dogs that get over the top excited. It is not a cure for aggression, but it can be a start for a fearful dog who doesn't know how to behave around whatever scary thing is the problem (humans, dogs, trains, etc.).
In BAT, the idea is to replace the unwanted behavior (aggression) with a wanted behavior (remaining calm, sniffing the ground, shaking off, etc.) by giving the dog the same reinforcement for the new behavior that the dog got from the old unwanted behavior. In the case of aggression, the dog usually wants distance from the trigger. By aggressing, the "scary human" will leave or the handler will remove the dog from the situation, and so the aggression continues b/c it works for the dog. In BAT, the dog is working in the presence of the "scary human" (trigger) at a distance at which the dog notices the trigger but is not at all freaked out (very low threshold). At that distance, the dog may watch or just glance at the trigger, but then the dog will do something other than explode - maybe look away, sniff the ground, scratch, look at the handler, etc. Any of these alternative behaviors can be marked and rewarded with the same reward the dog got for aggressing -- moving away from the scary human. After a trial is finished and the dog has moved away, a bonus reward may be given which could be a treat, play, praise, petting, etc. But the main reward is distance.
When the dog gets the idea that being calm and offering non-aggressive behaviors means he will be allowed to move farther away from the trigger, the dog begins to feel in control and is able to work closer and closer to the trigger. The dog starts to gather information about the trigger. You will see dogs watching the trigger for a long time (not a hard stare, but an inspection of sorts), air scenting, and eventually even offering friendly behavior. The dog is allowed to watch as long as he wants to gather information. When he is "done" he will turn his attention elsewhere and the handler can mark and reward with distance.
The BAT protocol is primarily operant conditioning, but there is definitely an element of desensitization and some classical conditioning is also occurring as each successful interaction with the trigger is followed by good things (distance and possibly bonus rewards).
LAT keeps the dog handler focused, which is most definitely a good thing in a trial/class environment. The point of BAT, though, is to get the dog to learn to interact with the trigger in an acceptable way (not necessarly physical contact) and to learn about the trigger - not to just glance at it for a click. Dogs that know both LAT and BAT (my Dusty does) sometimes begin playing LAT during BAT trials. But this can sometimes be a way for the dog to avoid being engaged with the trigger (at whatever distance the dog and handler are working). Usually, in that case, you would move back farther until the dog can do BAT successfully and stay engaged with the trigger longer.
So, if you want to have the dog watch the trigger longer, you would do BAT. If you want to keep the dog handler focused then you would play the LAT game in stimulating environments. The point of BAT is to change the dog's emotional state about the trigger. The point of LAT is to give the dog a tool enabling him to work in an environment that was too stimulating for him before he learned to play LAT. Yes, LAT, too, has a classical conditioning component, but the point of it is not to introduce the trigger to the dog; it's to get the dog functioning well around the trigger.
Both BAT and LAT make dogs happier, but LAT is only a prelude to BAT. And dogs that will be just fine after learning LAT are not dogs that need to do BAT.
I hope this helps. If not, let me know and I'll try to do a better job of explaining.
If anyone has a dog with fear issues, particularly aggression towards dogs or people, you can get on the functionalrewards list on yahoo. If you have a problem, let me know.... [email protected] Grisha's book on BAT is being published by Dogwise in a few months. There are also a few seminars on DVD at http://www.tawzerdogvideos.com I recommend starting with the "BAT:Organic Socialization" one or the all day seminar (the newest one)."

[Noobs]

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but for the amenable contributors here (I mean amenable to new ideas....) here is some valuable information on BAT which I'm very pleased to be able to share here. I wonder if the rest are suffering from a sort of Münchausen syndrome by proxy affliction towards their pets or maybe they just don't want to hear of new ideas. All I can say is, if they've been avoiding for so long and their dogs are still the same, is it time to try something else in the training toolbox maybe?

You are misunderstanding what people are saying. I never said to avoid forever. No one says to avoid forever. People are given advice to avoid until stress levels go down. And THEN they can move on to LAT, BAT, Look, Watch, etc etc etc. Now you've decided anyone choosing to avoid for a while has Munchausen by proxy. There is so much useful info on this thread. BAT obviously works, and so do the other "tools". I'll leave it at that.

[GundogGuy]

This has been, for me, one of the most interesting and productive Internet forum threads I've ever seen and I'm very happy that I could contribute as well as receive a heap of education... Thank you RLTW <3