New BAT theory

[GundogGuy]

I just cannot see how avoiding the triggers will somehow make the scary thing less scary in the long term.

Avoiding or building a tolerance to?

Jacksdad... The only DVD I can find available in the UK is DVD 2... I'd prefer the full bhuna . If she's coming over here then maybe she'll release some...

[jacksdad]

I just cannot see how avoiding the triggers will somehow make the scary thing less scary in the long term. I cannot see how that is enough.

It won't make things less scary and your right it isn't enough. It is just one part of the process, but an important one. Do your remember reading matties posts about stress, how it can take 1 to 2 or more weeks for a dog to clear of all their stress hormones? Then there is just plain taking a break for both the dog and their owner. Full on reactive dogs are exhausting. often by the time people post here for help this has been going on for awhile the dog and the human both need a break. You can't get this break, the downtime, etc if you never avoid the source of the fear/stress/anxiety. Both the dog and the human can not make progress, can not learn new skills etc while in a heightened state of stress all the time. So, to start, they need to take a break, avoid the triggers.

I still to this day give Jack a "day off" from dealing with dogs. I have a couple routes we can walk that have low risk of running into dogs, there is a local High School we can go to that has low risk of running into dogs. and each week I walk that route at least once, and often for one of his weekend off leash afternoons I will take him to the HS and let him explore without having to deal with other dogs. Does this avoiding dog make dogs less scary, no but it gives him a break...lets him relax, recharge so to speak so that when we next run into dogs he is in a better state to deal with them.

The idea is no different then if you went to a therapist or psychologist and say "X" is really stressing me out, I can't function, I am not eating, sleeping, when ever X is close I want to either run way or I just explode into arguments etc. a good one will tell you take a break, stay way from X for a little while. and Oh!!, while your doing not going around X, here are some tools to work on and learn so that later when you start going around X again you can better cope with X.

to help a reactive dog you have to do multiple things, you can't just do Avoidance, or just watch or just look or just BAT or just.... you have to do many small things that work together to compliment each other to achieve the goal of a calmer dog when they know their triggers is near by.

[runlikethewind]

Full bhuna!! Nice.

Just re reading posts and Jackdad suggested that if a dog is sniffing about, fiddling about, looking away etc, then the dog is still over threshold ie not a good thing. I think some people would disagree. And if you're following BAT, then you'll be rewarding for these actions Jacksdad. Less reactive signs to a trigger. What signs will you be rewarding Jacksdad then, if they are not fiddling about, looking away, sniffing ground? Interesting one eh?

[jacksdad]

Jacksdad... The only DVD I can find available in the UK is DVD 2... I'd prefer the full bhuna . If she's coming over here then maybe she'll release some...

see if dogwise will ship to the UK. they have the video http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB1164

Grisha is scheduled to be in Oxfordshire next month.

[runlikethewind]

I completely confer with the time off idea. A day off to run about the forest with no worries! That helps the dog to recharge. Learning to reassociate and reduce fear is hard work and tiring for the dog. It's great to have a day off for everyone's sake.

[runlikethewind]

Yes 'buiding a tolerance to' - is the next step past avoidance. I've seen tolerance appear in my friend's dog who is following control unleashed which is based on LAT.

[jacksdad]

Just re reading posts and Jackdad suggested that if a dog is sniffing about, fiddling about, looking away etc, then the dog is still over threshold ie not a good thing. I think some people would disagree. And if you're following BAT, then you'll be rewarding for these actions .....

I didn't get that out of the DVD, I got the clear impression you had to work just under threshold for BAT to work best, the dog has to be able to calmly observe the trigger. if it's looking to avoid that by sniffing about and fiddling, it's not calmly looking. if the dog can't calmly observe the trigger it's working up to a reactive episode and that isn't what you want.

BAT does more "aggressively" push the threshold, but it is my understanding you still have make every effort to work below it. The demos I watched showed her taking a dog say within 10 feet. if the dog observed calmly and voluntarily turned away, the dog was lead back to say 20 feet away and another approach was made towards the trigger. this time they pushed for 9 feet 11 inches if the dog responds favorably, they walk back 20 feet, then try again for 9 feet 10 inches. if the dog does not respond favorably at say 9 feet 10 inches, the next attempt is done back a the last safe distance. this is what I got out of it. not that if you know your dog is good at 10 you instantly start working at 9 ft and stress the dog out beyond what it can deal with.

my understanding of why your could do this was because the Dog was making the choices, not you asking for the choice you want. idea being anytime a dog figures it out on it's own the lesson is more solid.

I believe the dog learns best under threshold. I have rarely actively pushed Jack to challenge his threshold for "progress" on purpose.....life does that enough without deliberate action on my part.

[Noobs]

I understand we have to listen to our dogs and protect, keep from harms way etc. but it takes us back to my original idea that maybe posters who come here asking for help with fearful dogs should be explained to that there are two stages. First, do this then next here are your options of programmes to help the dog. I think it gives something of substance for posters to work on.

People are given advice in stages. Members who ask for help on reactive dogs are told to avoid dogs for a couple of weeks, not to make them less scary, but to bring down stress levels so that the dog may learn once the desensitization program is put into place.

[runlikethewind]

Yes what I do like the sound of with BAT is the dog makes his own choices. For that reason, it's very clever I guess. I think the difficulty comes - which takes us back to a first point - is the average dog owner cannot/has never had to/has been ignorant of the signs that the dog is calm or is not calm.

[jacksdad]

which is exactly why I don't think suggesting BAT as a first step to people coming here for help is a good idea. and why avoidance is such a important first step. in addition to letting everyone calm down, it gives the human half of the equation time to learn what it is they need to know to help their dog.

[runlikethewind]

The videos I saw of BAT, in one, a dog is taken up to a scary man (doing a VERY scary thing I might add!!!) so the dog is staring at the man... , probably quite stressed and unsure, not calm....I'd say and is clicked at the point when the dog does something else. And the reward is being walked away. None of it seems to be when the dog is calm at all. I must watch some more vids then if I'm missing this point.

[nightsrainfall]

which takes us back to a first point - is the average dog owner cannot/has never had to/has been ignorant of the signs that the dog is calm or is not calm.

Haha, that's my thought but I wasn't sure on the wording of it. Some people are really good at reading dogs, other people not so much... A theory like this one puts a lot on the trainer or owner, and if they don't catch the cues it's not going to work as indended. Distracting is a bit easier because even if the trigger isn't there or the dog wasn't near the stress point, it's just a fun game random game then. Letting the dog decide is interesting, but we have to be able to pick up on that communication - so either know the dog well or be able to read dogs well (hopefully).

This theory may be great (depending on the situation), but I'm not sure it's one that can be applied easily even if it fits the dog just because of the dog body langauge factor.

[Noobs]

I feel like we're talking in circles. You even quoted and replied to your own post just now.

[Mattie]

I understand we have to listen to our dogs and protect, keep from harms way etc. but it takes us back to my original idea that maybe posters who come here asking for help with fearful dogs should be explained to that there are two stages. First, do this then next here are your options of programmes to help the dog. I think it gives something of substance for posters to work on.

When giving advice we have to be careful we don't overload them with advice, people can only take so much advice in at any one time, too much will confuse them, better to start them off on the right track first and as they start to understand they can take in more information.

I just cannot see how avoiding the triggers will somehow make the scary thing less scary in the long term. I cannot see how that is enough.

Some idiot thought it was funny to frighten me with balloons when I was 3 years old, I find that if I can see them at a distance I am fine with them, if they get close I have a panic attack, if I stay at a distance were I don't start to panic I can then start to get closer. It works for me as well as dogs.

Full bhuna!! Nice.

Just re reading posts and Jackdad suggested that if a dog is sniffing about, fiddling about, looking away etc, then the dog is still over threshold ie not a good thing. I think some people would disagree. And if you're following BAT, then you'll be rewarding for these actions Jacksdad. Less reactive signs to a trigger. What signs will you be rewarding Jacksdad then, if they are not fiddling about, looking away, sniffing ground? Interesting one eh?

I don't want to put my dogs under any stress, they have had too much stress in their lives before they came to me, I prefer to keep them as stress free as I can. Stressed dogs like stressed people cannot learn, if you are teaching them by using stress it will be very easy to get it wrong and do more damage to my dog.

Yes 'buiding a tolerance to' - is the next step past avoidance. I've seen tolerance appear in my friend's dog who is following control unleashed which is based on LAT.

I don't see any point in building a tollerance when you can take the fear away by letting a dog go at his own pace instead of forcing them to be tollerant. When I am working with a dog I don't need go say to them "Look", they choose to look in their own way, in there own time when they feel safe enough to look at what they fear. When they do look what they are frightened of is no longer as frightening.

Yes what I do like the sound of with BAT is the dog makes his own choices. For that reason, it's very clever I guess. I think the difficulty comes - which takes us back to a first point - is the average dog owner cannot/has never had to/has been ignorant of the signs that the dog is calm or is not calm.

The dog isn't making choices, he is taken close enough to start to feel stressed, that isn't giving a dog a choice, dogs don't go where they start to be stessed, they keep away from situations they are frightened of if they can.

The videos I saw of BAT, in one, a dog is taken up to a scary man (doing a VERY scary thing I might add!!!) so the dog is staring at the man... , probably quite stressed and unsure, not calm....I'd say and is clicked at the point when the dog does something else. And the reward is being walked away. None of it seems to be when the dog is calm at all. I must watch some more vids then if I'm missing this point.

Why is the dog doing something else? Can't the dog cope so he is doing something else to help him cope?

[Horace's Mum]

RLTW, the avoidance thing is an interesting question. I have sorted out a huge number of Horus' issues simply by avoiding them. I don't think it is accurate to say that the problems were cured by avoidance, but in the case of a rescue or a new pup who hasn't yet learned to trust its owner, avoiding a lot that scares them whilst working in other ways to build a good solid relationship gives the dog time to chill, reducing stress levels and therefore lowering thresholds, at the same time as allowing the dog to worry less about those scary situations in the future because it trusts in it's owners ability to assess situations.

Certainly with new rescues I would suggest picking the one or maybe 2 biggest issues, the ones that really cannot be lived with, and working on them in a really positive way with clickers etc as well as doing loads of trust and confidence building games and setting the boundaries, whilst avoiding or managing everything else. There is no way you can train every issues at the same time, but by working on just one or 2 important ones I have found that the others tend to melt away of their own accord, given half a chance.

My best example of this is with resource guarding - Horus was seriously food aggressive when I got him, he would attack from the other end of the kitchen if he thought you were going to come in and there was food out, even if he couldn't reach it or even see it. Just food cooking in the oven would be enough to set him off. And I do mean attack. But it was an issue that was avoidable for me, simply by keeping him out of the kitchen, giving him plenty of space when he had treats and chews, and never ever touching him when he had food or was near food (not a difficult one, I couldn't ever touch him anyway!!). I have never done any of the usual methods of reversing food aggression, and yet these days he can be in the kitchen with me, will let me go anywhere, will come away from food if he can't reach it, will let me add food to his bowl and walk around him if I need to, and most of all, I can actually give him a hug and have a kiss off him when he has his feet up on the work surface seeing what I am making for dinner. All of that was achieved with avoidance.