New BAT theory

[Mattie]

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but for the amenable contributors here (I mean amenable to new ideas....) here is some valuable information on BAT which I'm very pleased to be able to share here. I wonder if the rest are suffering from a sort of Münchausen syndrome by proxy affliction towards their pets or maybe they just don't want to hear of new ideas. All I can say is, if they've been avoiding for so long and their dogs are still the same, is it time to try something else in the training toolbox maybe?

I find this very insulting, we have discussed this, we have read what you have said but it is you that was reading into posts what wasn't there not us, to you everyone is wrong and you are right, that should tell you something. Nobody has condemned BAT, I have seen this happen on other forums, we have asked questions and discussed. If we didn't want to know ideas we wouldn't have discussed this, we would have like other forums, condemed it without any discussion. I am now doubting your motives for posting this, it wasn't to discuss.

[wolfgirl889]

I use a similar 'here's your choices but only one gets rewarded' when training my dogs to stop-to-flush.

Ok yes so in BAT you present the dog with the option of continuing to look at his triggers (no reward) or the option of looking away and faffing about (which gets rewarded) but NOT by a treat, but by rushing off (you can walk away or run away which makes it fun like a game)

This is in contrast to looking at the trigger and continuing to look at the trigger, marking this with a marker and then treat reward. There's no obvious option set up here unlike with BAT so this is maybe why it has such good results.

I STILL don't get the point about moving away as being the reward though!!

I dont get how you cant get the part where moving away is a reward... If a dog is fearful of something, the natural respons is either fight or flight and most dogs would choose flight if not cornerd. You understand this, right?
Then comes the part with the leash... when out on a walk most of us walk our dogs on a leash, right? But when the dog is on a leash, you take away his/hers option to run away when seeing something scary. When that happens the dog either shut down and quiver in fear or get reactive since he/she is cornerd and cant run away, like he/she wants to. If then the owner do the responsible thing and move the dog away from the trigger - and remember the dog WANTS to move away from the scary thing - he/she is then rewarding the dog by doing so. Do you see it now, how moving away becomes a reward? A functional reward is just like any other reward since the dog wants it, it's just like giving him/her a treat, or playing with the dog or any other thing you do to reward your dog.

**Moving away becomes a reward simply becouse the dog WANTS to get away from the trigger. Since the dog is on a leash he/she can't get away from it by itself hence the owner has to be responsible and move the dog away, that is a form of reward when done after a behavior you want to reinforce, like a sniff on the ground.

[Mattie]

I use a similar 'here's your choices but only one gets rewarded' when training my dogs to stop-to-flush.

Ok yes so in BAT you present the dog with the option of continuing to look at his triggers (no reward) or the option of looking away and faffing about (which gets rewarded) but NOT by a treat, but by rushing off (you can walk away or run away which makes it fun like a game)

This is in contrast to looking at the trigger and continuing to look at the trigger, marking this with a marker and then treat reward. There's no obvious option set up here unlike with BAT so this is maybe why it has such good results.

I STILL don't get the point about moving away as being the reward though!!

I dont get how you cant get the part where moving away is a reward... If a dog is fearful of something, the natural respons is either fight or flight and most dogs would choose flight if not cornerd. You understand this, right?

As everyone is different just because you "Get it" doesn't mean others will, I know from being a riding instructor that not everyone "Gets" things at the same time, some people I have to change the wording before they "Get it". I don't "Get it" either.

Then comes the part with the leash... when out on a walk most of us walk our dogs on a leash, right? But when the dog is on a leash, you take away his/hers option to run away when seeing something scary. When that happens the dog either shut down and quiver in fear or get reactive since he/she is cornerd and cant run away, like he/she wants to. If then the owner do the responsible thing and move the dog away from the trigger - and remember the dog WANTS to move away from the scary thing - he/she is then rewarding the dog by doing so. Do you see it now, how moving away becomes a reward? A functional reward is just like any other reward since the dog wants it, it's just like giving him/her a treat, or playing with the dog or any other thing you do to reward your dog.

Not all dogs "Want" to walk away, some prefer to attack instead, walking these dogs away won't be a reward, the reward has to suit the dog.

**Moving away becomes a reward simply becouse the dog WANTS to get away from the trigger. Since the dog is on a leash he/she can't get away from it by itself hence the owner has to be responsible and move the dog away, that is a form of reward when done after a behavior you want to reinforce, like a sniff on the ground.

What about the dogs that don't want to walk away but want to attack the other dog? Why do we have to wait until the dog sniffs the ground before moving away?

There are other ways were an owner can be responsible, they don't have to walk away, there are many ways to teach a dog that other dogs are not scary monsters, how we work with them depends on the dog and what they see as a reward.

My little Gracie being all terrier would never walk away, it had been bred into her that no matter how frightened she is she attacks and not runs, working terriers depend on this to save their lives.

I am not saying that BAT doesn't work, it will work for some dogs but not all, this is why I love positive training, we have to learn to read and understand our dogs so we can teach them.

[wolfgirl889]

As everyone is different just because you "Get it" doesn't mean others will, I know from being a riding instructor that not everyone "Gets" things at the same time, some people I have to change the wording before they "Get it". I don't "Get it" either.

Which is why I explained it.

What about the dogs that don't want to walk away but want to attack the other dog?

With that type of dog you will have to use a different strategy ofc, this kind of speaks for itself. Though there are different types of "want to attack", some dogs that "want to attack" could very well be successfully with the BAT tecnique including a "Walk Away", whilst others wont.

There are other ways were an owner can be responsible, they don't have to walk away, there are many ways to teach a dog that other dogs are not scary monsters, how we work with them depends on the dog and what they see as a reward.

Don't misinterpret what I wrote, that there are other ways to be responsible goes without saying. In my scenario the responsible thing was to walk away, since the dog wanted to do that and it was the least stressful way to deal with it. Had it been another scenario - say where the dog didn't want to go away - the responsible owner would've ofc acted in another way, more appropriate of handling that type of situation.

In the end it all comes down to acquiring skills, knowledge, understanding and creating a bond between owner and dog. If you dont have that or not working on it you can't successfully rehabilitate a dog since you can't properly determine what techniques/training etc is best suitable for the dog. That is the responsible thing I'm talking about.

Since I wanted to explain why walking away is a functional reward in BAT I chose the scenario in which the dog wanted to walk away, if the dog don't want to walk away it's not a functional reward. When you read about BAT it clearly says that first of all you have to determine the functional reward for the dog, as far as I remember they don't say that walking away is to be used on every dog. Only on the dogs that want it, hence it becoming a functional reward. Just like being allowed to go play with another dog after sitting while the leash comes off - or whatever - is a functional reward for a dog that wants to do that.

Why do we have to wait until the dog sniffs the ground before moving away?

The idea of BAT is to - as far as I understand it - change the way a dog feel about and how it handle a situation it don't feel comfortable with. Waiting until the dog sniffs the ground/licks its lips/move its head etc is part of changing the behavior of the dog during the situations. Clearly speaking, you do that because you want to teach the dog that that behavior leads to the functional reward he wants - which in this case is walking away - and that barking or lunging don't have to take place anymore in order to feel safe. You teach the dog a peaceful way to deal with a difficult situation instead of a "violent" one.

In a scenario where the dog just wants to run away and the owner didn't understand what the dog was saying all along the "aggression" part is the last part in a line of hints that the dog is uncomfortable. Ofc that is when talking about a fear aggressive dog and in general. The first part in the line might very well have been a distressed sniff/flick of the tongue/head turn etc but since the owner didn't understand the dog it escalated into something unwanted. You want to teach the dog that you now understand what he/she wants with only those small hints and that he/she dont have to explain it in a BIG way anymore and eventually - and hopefully - you'll be able to also teach him/her that what he/she fears aint so bad after all. That is if it's not.

For me BAT isn't really so much a specific tecnique to use - as people seem to interpret it with the whole "Walk Away" thing - as it is a way of understanding the root of a dogs behavior and knowledge of how functional rewards can work for or against you. That is why I believe BAT works for all dogs, but not in all scenarios/situations depending on what the functional reward is for the specific dog.

**In reality it's already working for everyone with reactive dogs, but not necessarily in the way us humans want it to work.

I absolutely share your passion for positive training and after reading what you wrote I found that kind of all of your "thoughts" fits very well with my view of the core in BAT. That is, and understanding of what your dog tells you and how to act accordingly.

[runlikethewind]

I don't know if any of you made it, but the UK BAT 2 day seminar was really good. I had bought the DVD beforehand (her organic socialistion DVD) It's all very good and very easy to implement and actually very easy to understand. However, to see vast improvements in reactive dogs, you need to arrange set ups once or twice during the week and do as many trials in a 45 min session with breaks (ie moving forward and retreating) This means having stooge dogs and stooge people (if the dog is person reactive). You can also carry out what the term has been coined stealth BAT or undercover BAT when out in public (it just takes longer to see improvements).

So anyway, it was excellent. We had a great 2 days. She's definately one to watch if you don't already know of her already. She's invited to speak at the next ABDT conference. And the key observation that was made, discussed and I agreed with was that with BAT, compared to other methods involving treats and interaction with the handler, is that BAT gives the dog independence of decisions and the ability to make his own choices. This is not so true of other methods. BUT other methods could be used to high stress situations.

[Mattie]

I have a friend who went, she did enjoy it but said it won't suit all dogs, this is why we ask questions on here, what works for one dog doesn't work for another. As to a dog not having choices, of course they have choices, it is up to the owner to put a dog in a position where they can have a choice and is why people like Jack's Dad and Noobs, as well as myself with Gracie, have turned our dogs round. Too many people get hung up on one method, it becomes the in method of the time, dogs that are not suitable for that method are made to put up with it. It should be the dog that dictates what method is used to help him through his fears not the owner or the latest method.

If the training, no matter what it is and doesn't include punishing the dog, suits the dog then it is the right method for that dog, if it doesn't work it is the wrong method. Also, as dogs improve we have to move with them, the training has to change to continue to suit the dog.

[runlikethewind]

It would be interesting to find out if your friend was refering to the case dog who was actually not fearful of other dogs but was in fact as Grisha worked out 'a frustrated greeter'. Then the protocol has to be switched around and then it can appear less clear.

All fear reactivity in dogs stems from a need to create distance 'I want you out of my sight or further away from me' - be that the fearful dog moving away or the trigger to be driven away (like you refer to in some fearful terriers for example). That is the functional reward. In fearful dogs, they lose or don't have that ability to move themselves away (instead they want to fight/bark/lunge or they want to cower). BAT gives dogs a 'socially acceptable way to interact (or not) with their surroundings'. In BAT, you are giving the dog a choice - he can interact if he feels like it or he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to - all carried out under threshold so the dog can learn. In that respect, I think it is worth trying on all fearful dogs.

[GundogGuy]

Did you get a handle on when her DVD for trainers will be available in UK? I think this is a brilliantly put together theory/method. I've just taken on a client with a GSD cross who guards the living room and is super reactive to dogs. I saw this first hand yesterday and I have the rope burns on my wrist as a result (unexpected doggy visitor to the training area). The problem with this big guy is that when stimulated by another dog he continues to react long after it's out of sight so I'll need to employ a few different tools before I get to BAT with this dog but I'm looking forward to learning about it 'in the field' as it were.

From what I can gather this last dogs trainer has tried to use flooding which obviously hasn't worked...


Thank you RLTW for bringing this topic to my attention

[runlikethewind]

Gundogguy - she had all three DVDS on sale. I should have got the trainer's one for you. Damn!

I suggest you contact the OABC (Muriel) as they had a few left over - to see if you can get the seminar one sent to you. I do think the Organic Socialistion one is great too. I got a lot out of the organic socialistation one as she includes lots of real life videos.

http://www.oabc.org.uk/contact/

[Mattie]

It would be interesting to find out if your friend was refering to the case dog who was actually not fearful of other dogs but was in fact as Grisha worked out 'a frustrated greeter'. Then the protocol has to be switched around and then it can appear less clear.

My friend talked about everything she could remember not just one item, my friend is also very knowledgeable about dogs.

If one method suited all dogs we wouldn't need so many trainers, behaviourists and ideas, we could get the information in one book instead of the amount of dog training books that are out now, all with different ideas to train our dogs.

[DoggieZen]

I'm happy to see a long discussion of BAT on here. I'm the one who developed it, so if you have questions for me, please ask. It seems like there's some confusion as to what it actually is (which makes sense for people who've only seen little clips online). The main thing to remember with BAT is that it helps dogs learn to make good choices rather than barking, lunging, growling, biting, etc. BAT is good for socializing puppies as well as adult rehabilitation. It is done in a low-stress way, so that the dog is never put over the threshold where they feel like they must bark, lunge, growl, etc. to defend themselves. If the dog ever does go over threshold, you just do what you can to get the dog into a better position to make a good choice - call them away, say "leave it," pull them away, whatever works.

BAT works for dogs who are fearful as well as dogs who are assertively aggressive. As long as you know what the functional reward is (the consequence that's keeping the dog doing what she's doing), then you can use it in BAT. For most reactive dogs, getting more space between themselves and the other dogs is what they're aiming for - even if they run up and bite first, the goal is usually to get the other dog to go away and stay away.

Only good things,
Grisha

Grisha Stewart, MA, CPDT-KA
Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle
http://ahimsadogtraining.com/bat

[DoggieZen]

p.s. If you want to learn more about BAT, you can ask me questions here, join the yahoo group at http://functionalrewards.com to talk with other trainers and regular people who use BAT, or watch a DVD on it. I also have a book coming out in mid-2011 and there are seminars in various places around the world. See the website link below.

Only good things,
Grisha

Grisha Stewart, MA, CPDT-KA
Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle
http://ahimsadogtraining.com/bat

[Noobs]

Thank you for joining the conversation. I saw your videos long before the discussion started here and used the method as I understood it on my fearful dog. I can't speak to its effectiveness on our situation with any kind of certainty as of yet but the principles seem sound. I do use a variety of methods depending on the particular moment as opposed to using BAT exclusively... if you have any thoughts on that (yay or nay?), please share. Do you believe using BAT exclusively will be more effective (less confusing) to the dog? I'll be checking out your yahoo group as well.

[DoggieZen]

I think every dog needs different things, so I often combine BAT with other types of training, including Control Unleashed, classical counterconditioning, Treat & Retreat, and regular clicker training. I also always use environmental management to help the dog succeed, like covering up windows if the dog is barking all day, fences for safety, etc. So I would expect some combination of other things with BAT. To know whether your particular combination of method's is counterproductive with your particular dog, you'd have to ask the dog.

By that I mean look at the behavior. If it's not improving, what can/should you do less or more of? One thing that I can blithely suggest without seeing your dog or knowing your situation is that (done well), more BAT set-ups would make your dog's behavior modification go more quickly. Successful repetition is the key to learning.

[Mattie]

I must be crazy having dogs, with the hope of making this seminar I tried leaving my dogs in various ways over Easter, Bonnie and Dolly are fine, Cyril is happy in the car but not left at home, Tilly starts screaming if I leave her in the house more than 3 hours, if I leave her in the car she starts screaming as soon as I walk away, she can really scream and keep it up.

The seminar is for 3 hours and is highly possible to go over time, there is nobody I can leave my dogs with so unfortunately I am not going to be able to make it. It isn't the first time I have missed something I would like to go to because of my dogs and won't be the last.