Hey everyone!
I do miss watching its me or the dog! Have the book which ive lent to my friends who have a new pup.
Anyway i am wondering what most people thought of the dog whisper?
Nearly Everyone i know watches it and they say its amazing and helped them. I watched it for the 1st time the other day and didnt take to it. Also whats the point if it flashes up on screen dont try this at home. Surely its better to have stuff anyone can try.
Its me or the dog seems much better...
What are peoples views of the dog whisper
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thenerdycyclist
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Doggie Python
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I know there are others who will not agree, but Cesar and Victoria do share some common ground.
In watching Victoria handle dogs, I'd say she has an excellent "feel" for leash work. She shares Cesar's knowledge of knowing when "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" can help put a dog at ease.
Neither use much click-and-treat to deal with most social situations. Both support the leadership philosophies. Both use treats in a classical conditioning sense with truely fearful dogs.
Both have a presense the dogs respond to.
Both believe the owners interaction with their dogs plays a big part in the dogs mental state and behavior.
I'd say the major differences are the core belief systems:
*Cesar believes most aggression is caused by frustration, insecurity, and/or confusion as to the dog's place in the social order of their household.
*Victoria (seems) to believe most aggression (reactivity) is cause by fear, bad breeding, medical conditions, or lack of early socialisation.
Cesar, although an honorary member of the IACP, is an independant philosopher who answers to the owners.
Victoria belongs and answers to the APDT, which has strict guidelines as to which philosophies, methods, and tools which are acceptable.
Although Victoria knows the stress of face-to-face greetings, Cesar uses the parallel walk (communicating to the dogs "we are working together") to a greater advantage.
Cesar is "pro-crate", Victoria is not.
Cesar keeps his vocal tones at a lower pitch and uses less "excitement" in his interactions with the dogs.
Both are anti-BSL - Bless them!
In watching Victoria handle dogs, I'd say she has an excellent "feel" for leash work. She shares Cesar's knowledge of knowing when "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" can help put a dog at ease.
Neither use much click-and-treat to deal with most social situations. Both support the leadership philosophies. Both use treats in a classical conditioning sense with truely fearful dogs.
Both have a presense the dogs respond to.
Both believe the owners interaction with their dogs plays a big part in the dogs mental state and behavior.
I'd say the major differences are the core belief systems:
*Cesar believes most aggression is caused by frustration, insecurity, and/or confusion as to the dog's place in the social order of their household.
*Victoria (seems) to believe most aggression (reactivity) is cause by fear, bad breeding, medical conditions, or lack of early socialisation.
Cesar, although an honorary member of the IACP, is an independant philosopher who answers to the owners.
Victoria belongs and answers to the APDT, which has strict guidelines as to which philosophies, methods, and tools which are acceptable.
Although Victoria knows the stress of face-to-face greetings, Cesar uses the parallel walk (communicating to the dogs "we are working together") to a greater advantage.
Cesar is "pro-crate", Victoria is not.
Cesar keeps his vocal tones at a lower pitch and uses less "excitement" in his interactions with the dogs.
Both are anti-BSL - Bless them!
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" Dennis
I do not want to get into an argument and I do not have time to go look for anything to support me as I may have to evacuate my home tonight (depending on weather) but I will just leave it at I have to disagree with what you are saying.
Belgian: 6 year old English Chocolate Labrador Retriever.
"The more boys I meet, the more I love my dog"-Carrie Underwood
"The more boys I meet, the more I love my dog"-Carrie Underwood
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Doggie Python
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That's okay, this thread's not going anywhere (no pun intended!).lablver2 wrote:I do not want to get into an argument and I do not have time to go look for anything to support me as I may have to evacuate my home tonight (depending on weather) but I will just leave it at I have to disagree with what you are saying.
Please, tell me it's only the weather and you aren't near the fires in So California.
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" Dennis
Stay safe lablver2, I have been following the news as well and have been worried about you and yours.
As too the thread, the differences between the tow are chasms in terms of training philosophy and methods they advocate using.
While some of the goals may seem similar, that are approached vastly different.
For instance if the training goal was a dog that sits on command.
Ceaser, would be more inclined to forcibly put the dog into a sit position, give a choke collar correction or some other method to"force" his will to lord over his charge.
Victoria, on the other hand, would likely convince the dog that sitting was his own idea and he was darn glad he thought of it because sitting on command is just too cool.....Ok lets break that down.
The clicker comes out with nice food treats and VS just waits because every real trainer knows sit happens...click treat. After only a few repetitions the dog now offers a sit even without being cued. A cue can be added and clicker and treats faded.
Both had the same goal, but a completely different manner of approaching.
As far as aggression goes VS is more correct in the origins of aggression lie in fear and not in any desire to take over the household.
I would not say the VS is not pro or con crate. its the manner in how the crate is used and for how long. Wouldn't you agree that its wrong to leave a dog in a crate for more than 6 hours?
As far as presence, its not hard to learn "speak dog" and understanding the significance of eye contact. Much of the reasons people have problems (or believe they have problem) come from miscommunication between human primate means of communication to canine forms of communication.
They don't speak human, and most of us do not speak dog. With a bit of reading and some helpful dvd's you too can have that same "presence" with dogs. By understanding how to clearly communicate using their signals and not ours.
As too the thread, the differences between the tow are chasms in terms of training philosophy and methods they advocate using.
While some of the goals may seem similar, that are approached vastly different.
For instance if the training goal was a dog that sits on command.
Ceaser, would be more inclined to forcibly put the dog into a sit position, give a choke collar correction or some other method to"force" his will to lord over his charge.
Victoria, on the other hand, would likely convince the dog that sitting was his own idea and he was darn glad he thought of it because sitting on command is just too cool.....Ok lets break that down.
The clicker comes out with nice food treats and VS just waits because every real trainer knows sit happens...click treat. After only a few repetitions the dog now offers a sit even without being cued. A cue can be added and clicker and treats faded.
Both had the same goal, but a completely different manner of approaching.
As far as aggression goes VS is more correct in the origins of aggression lie in fear and not in any desire to take over the household.
I would not say the VS is not pro or con crate. its the manner in how the crate is used and for how long. Wouldn't you agree that its wrong to leave a dog in a crate for more than 6 hours?
As far as presence, its not hard to learn "speak dog" and understanding the significance of eye contact. Much of the reasons people have problems (or believe they have problem) come from miscommunication between human primate means of communication to canine forms of communication.
They don't speak human, and most of us do not speak dog. With a bit of reading and some helpful dvd's you too can have that same "presence" with dogs. By understanding how to clearly communicate using their signals and not ours.
Stay safe lablver2, I will send Reiki and hope it helps.
No matter what you are training, children, dogs, lions, horses, dolphins etc, the principles of training are the same. The do have to adapted to what is being taught, it is in this adaption that things really change and how teaching/training is done. This is why there seems to be common ground between very different trainers.
It is extremely rare to see a good trainer who understands training principles on the tv, Victoria is the exception, this type of trainer rarely makes a good, entertaining program but people like CM, and in the UK Dog Borstal, do make good entertainment. They also do a lot of damage to dogs, they may turn dogs round but a lot of owners copy them which leads to a lot of disasters.
When Dog Borstal first came onto the TV in the UK, shortly afterwards trainers and behaviourists were snowed under with the problems that owners watching this program had caused.
I wonder how many of the dogs that CM is dealing with got that way because their owner tried his methods themselves first, I bet their won't be any information on that. Owners following Victoria rarely need they type of help that these need.
That is the difference, Victoria not only helps the dogs on the programs but she helps the owners watching, CM causes a lot of problems when owners try his methods and putting "Don't try this at home", is useless, many owners don't even see it, they are hypnatized by what they are watching.
No matter what you are training, children, dogs, lions, horses, dolphins etc, the principles of training are the same. The do have to adapted to what is being taught, it is in this adaption that things really change and how teaching/training is done. This is why there seems to be common ground between very different trainers.
It is extremely rare to see a good trainer who understands training principles on the tv, Victoria is the exception, this type of trainer rarely makes a good, entertaining program but people like CM, and in the UK Dog Borstal, do make good entertainment. They also do a lot of damage to dogs, they may turn dogs round but a lot of owners copy them which leads to a lot of disasters.
When Dog Borstal first came onto the TV in the UK, shortly afterwards trainers and behaviourists were snowed under with the problems that owners watching this program had caused.
I wonder how many of the dogs that CM is dealing with got that way because their owner tried his methods themselves first, I bet their won't be any information on that. Owners following Victoria rarely need they type of help that these need.
That is the difference, Victoria not only helps the dogs on the programs but she helps the owners watching, CM causes a lot of problems when owners try his methods and putting "Don't try this at home", is useless, many owners don't even see it, they are hypnatized by what they are watching.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
Honestly i like them both. Cesar has this kewl pack of dogs i would love to meet. But if you noticed Cesar is more of a BEHAVIORIST and Victoria is more of a TRAINER to different things. one thing i don't like about Cesar's show is it only goes in CA ( i just moved frim there 
) while Victoria is all over. 
i filled out a form to be on the show but haven't sent a vid. so look for me on sat. nights 
) while Victoria is all over. i filled out a form to be on the show but haven't sent a vid. so look for me on sat. nights Never trust a smiling fox!
Ceasar and Victoria could not be further apart on thier philosophies.
Cesar is nothing more than an old school Ntauralist trainer, in the vein of Koehler and the Monks of New Skeete. The emphasis is on controling the pack by being the "Alpha".
I do not think Cesar is a bad man or a cruel man, but he is an uninformed man. He relies on methods like Alpha Rolls to establish dominance while VS leans on Pavolv to change behavior.
Victoria, while she calls herself a trainer, focuses more on behavior. She has worked with notables in the field, such as Ian Dunbar. In fact, if you watch her US episodes, she recently took some dogs to a Sirius Facility (Dunbar's).
Dr. Dunbar has been quite vocal in his critisisms of Cesar Milan as this article shows:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... L9D1N1.DTL
Victoria's recent comments on The Great and Wonderful Millan on an episode of GAD, though heavily edited, leave no doubt on the distance between their training styles.
Victoria does indeed use a mark and reinforce while I think I have seen Cesar use it once.
Cesar does not use classical conditioning and seems to lean heavily on flooding rather than a gradual desensitization.
Basically, Cesar, while pointing out repeatedly that dogs are not humans, want people to become dogs to control their dogs.
Additionally, while Cesar is never reticent about using positive physical punishment, I have yet to see VS use or condone it's use and for me, that is the biggest difference.
Cesar is nothing more than an old school Ntauralist trainer, in the vein of Koehler and the Monks of New Skeete. The emphasis is on controling the pack by being the "Alpha".
I do not think Cesar is a bad man or a cruel man, but he is an uninformed man. He relies on methods like Alpha Rolls to establish dominance while VS leans on Pavolv to change behavior.
Victoria, while she calls herself a trainer, focuses more on behavior. She has worked with notables in the field, such as Ian Dunbar. In fact, if you watch her US episodes, she recently took some dogs to a Sirius Facility (Dunbar's).
Dr. Dunbar has been quite vocal in his critisisms of Cesar Milan as this article shows:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... L9D1N1.DTL
Victoria's recent comments on The Great and Wonderful Millan on an episode of GAD, though heavily edited, leave no doubt on the distance between their training styles.
Victoria does indeed use a mark and reinforce while I think I have seen Cesar use it once.
Cesar does not use classical conditioning and seems to lean heavily on flooding rather than a gradual desensitization.
Basically, Cesar, while pointing out repeatedly that dogs are not humans, want people to become dogs to control their dogs.
Additionally, while Cesar is never reticent about using positive physical punishment, I have yet to see VS use or condone it's use and for me, that is the biggest difference.
Kim and Asher
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
I agree with MissyMay
By the way not to get off topic. I am near one of the fires it is about 2-3 miles away however it has died down so much in our city and is going into another direction. However either way is not good because it is heading into a direction where I have family and friends living there. The weather took a big toll in the fires. At 1 a.m. this morning they had said the fire was out of control. they only had 5 % contained. The winds were switching directions as well as kicking up and dying down. Winds have a big toll in fires because winds spread fires as well as the wind that the fire makes itself.
As of right now it looks like we are safe. It also doesn't look like we will be evacuating unless the fire hops the freeway again. Thank you all for the wishes/
By the way not to get off topic. I am near one of the fires it is about 2-3 miles away however it has died down so much in our city and is going into another direction. However either way is not good because it is heading into a direction where I have family and friends living there. The weather took a big toll in the fires. At 1 a.m. this morning they had said the fire was out of control. they only had 5 % contained. The winds were switching directions as well as kicking up and dying down. Winds have a big toll in fires because winds spread fires as well as the wind that the fire makes itself.
As of right now it looks like we are safe. It also doesn't look like we will be evacuating unless the fire hops the freeway again. Thank you all for the wishes/
Belgian: 6 year old English Chocolate Labrador Retriever.
"The more boys I meet, the more I love my dog"-Carrie Underwood
"The more boys I meet, the more I love my dog"-Carrie Underwood