The principles of training is the same no matter what you are training, dogs, horses, dolphins, children etc. It is how you use those principles that matters, you can be positive and work with the dog to change their behaviour as Victoria does, or you can use force, flooding, etc like CM does. They all work, but changing how a dog things about something in a positive way is much safer for the owner and the dog.sjackson wrote:I watch both shows, and think that both VS and CM do a good job with their own methods. A lot of the foundations between the two are very similar, and it's unfortunate that some people can't see this.
All trainers/behaviourists work with older dogs who's behaviour is well established as well as younger dogs. Most of my dogs came to me as older dogs, all these had behaviour problems including aggression and are now well mannered, well behaved dogs that were turned round by using positive methods.We have to remember that Cesar typically works with older dogs, who's inappropriate behaviors are already well established and often thought to be a lost cause. In that sense he's more of a rehabilitator than a trainer.
Maybe there is something in the criticism.I keep seeing the same criticism of CM anywhere somebody's criticizing him. It's so predictable at this point. It's always:
- Uses fear and pain to shut down a dog. Specifically references to "choking", "alpha rolls" and "flooding"
- Focuses too much on pack mentality
- Does not have credentials or education in dog training
There are several clips on the internet showing CM flooding a dog, usually these dogs are fear aggressive and he is flooding them my forcing them to face other dogs. All that happens is the dog can't cope and shuts down.First of all, flooding. This is when someone is forced to confront their fears by being thrown headfirst into the very situation that they are afraid of. Sink or swim essentially. Cesar does not do this. He uses classical conditioning with positive reinforcement to gradually introduce the fearful dog to the situation in a slow process. On a recent show of his with a dog that was fearful of water, he slowly lead the dog to the pool using treats and affection until the dog was comfortable enough to get into the pool. Flooding would have been to throw the dog in the pool. If the intention is for the dog to overcome their fear, they must confront it at some point. No amount of clicking will overcome that fear for them. Gradual, positively reinforced introduction of the stress trigger is the best way to do it. Wouldn't you know it, but that's what VS does too.
I would think if he had thrown the dog in the pool there would be a very large outcry at the way he treated the dog. He may be a bully with dogs but he isn't a fool, he knows how far he can go.
Nobody ever said he alpha rolls every dog, only some. Alpha rolling just one dog is one too many, it should not be done.Alpha rolls. If someone had never seen the show, the way his critics describe it would give them the impression that all he does is roll a dog on it's back. Not the case. Please watch one show (because most of his critics readily admit to not watching his show) and count the number of times he alpha rolls any dogs. Please.
Just because you haven't seen him doesn't mean he doesn't do it, again there are clips on the internet showing this. These clips have been put up by him not people against him.Choking. I don't see this. I see a handler momentarily tug on a leash to redirect a dog's attention away from something it's obsessing on before the bad behavior starts. I don't see a dog in pain. Dogs are very clear about communicating when something hurts them. None of the dogs he has on the leash yelp, bark or squeal when he "chokes" them. It's a redirection, that is all. He keeps the lead loose, so that any tension on it is instantly picked up by the dog. The amount of force needed for this to be an effective tool is less than the dog would put on it's own neck if it was allowed to pull on the lead. In the years that I've watched the show, the only time I've seen a dog nearly choked is when it's being handled by it's owners before Cesar has a chance to work with it.
A quick tug on a lead can do a lot of damage to a dog's neck and trachea, I have 2 dogs that have damaged necks because of their previous training of tugging on the choke chain. Dogs not have to yelp or scream for damage to be done. Pulling on a lead that is attached to a collar can also cause damage to the neck and trachea.
Pack mentality. I'm sorry, but this is really mostly for the HUMANS that Cesar works with. He does this to establish discipline roles with the humans, not dominate the dogs. It's a language that most humans, untrained in dog behavior, can understand. He uses it to point out when a human is reinforcing bad behavior with rewards, and corrects them by showing them appropriate responses to their dog's behavior. Responses that dogs can understand. He may call it being a pack leader, but really it's just being a responsible dog owner.
Most owners are confused when you talk about pack mentality, they don't understand about packs and he makes them even more confused.
Yes dogs are not wolves but it is also recognised that they are pack animals, horses are herd animals, very similar. I haven't seen anyone on the internet say that dogs are not pack animals, in fact, they all say they ARE pack animals so don't know were you got that from.And for those of you who say dogs are not wolves, and are therefore not pack animals... please take a look at what happens when domesticated dogs are set loose. They revert to packs because they have no order and discipline in their lives. All he is doing is reinforcing the importance of social order to the dog owners.
Never seen anything about his lack of education either, think you must be making this one up.And as far as his education is concerned, the proof is in the pudding. If his lack of "education" had an impact on what he could actually accomplish, then he wouldn't be where he is today. This is not just a gimmick. He was rehabilitating dogs using these methods long before he was famous. His ability to do that successfully is what lead to his fame.
Dogs wag their tails for many reasons not just because they are a happy dog, the height they carry their tail is also relevant as is the speed it wags. This should also be read along with what the dog's body is doing at the same time. A waggy tail says nothing apart from the tail is wagging.And at the end of the day, it works. These are not defeated animals. If you watch his show, you will see wagging tails, energetic and playful dogs. If they were depressed, or shut down, I don't believe that he would be getting away with it. If he's truly creating a massive amount of dogs out there who are just ticking time bombs waiting to go off, as some seem to be suggesting, then where are those dogs? I don't see that at all. I see Cesar breaking the stress cycle for these dogs, by not allowing them to obsess about what stresses them out. After they spend time leading calm and stress-free lives, they realize that they don't need to be aggressive or obsessive anymore.
There is a thread on body language showing Jean Donaldson, I think you should look at them it will give you a better idea of a dog's body language and how to read the dog. A good trainer/behaviourist can read a dog, CM can't, he can't see when a dog is submitting to him only when the dog shuts down. A shut down dog is very dangerous, the behaviour will eventually come out but be much worse. We never hear when they do.
It seems you have only come on here to cause trouble as this is your first post, you haven't even had the good manners to introduce yourself but just attacked everyone. This is a positive training board, please remember that. Positive training works very well with aggressive dogs, even dogs that have nearly killed someone, they have been turned round quickly and safely.
Most aggressive dogs are very frightened, take that fear away and the aggression dogs. In order to take the fear away you need to work with the dog at the dog's own pace to build up their confidence. I have a dog that wanted to kill every dog she saw when she first came, she was 12 years old at the time so this was very well established, now I can trust her with any dog and know that she will be well mannered and nice with them.
