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anyways but i tried both methods and the work fine. my dogs now i'm the pack leader most of the time. but let's try not to make enemies okay.
okay since everyone has watched both shows...
who do you think:
has the best correction noise?
acts more like the dogs?
has better commerial tips?
Do't use them, don't like them. Correction noises, be they an ACK or a tssst, are positive punishment and I do not nclude P+ in my training.
Of course, if I had to choose, since the tsssst is usually accompnied by a "hand bite", I would seriously avoid that.
If anyone tried to tssst Ash, they would probably loose their tssster.
acts more like the dogs?
Thankfully, I have never seen Victoria act like a dog.
Again, maybe the dogs I deal with are smarter than the ones Cesar deals with and his followers own, but mine know they are dogs and I am not. Why would I chhose to create a situation where I am constantly needed to reaffirm my status as pack leader when I am already outside of and above my pack?
has better commerial tips?
I fast forward through commercials.
Kim and Asher
“He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotionâ€
Actually I would say Cesar changes dog behavior and encourages people to abuse their dogs and not spoil them. he uses pain and fear.
Victoria Changes the mindset of a dog which changes the dog's behavior and she teaches people how to modify their dog's behavior and not spoil them. She uses positive association and the basics of how dogs learn.
I think both are working towards a similar goal: help people learn to live with and modify a difficult pet rather than put it to sleep.
I watch Ceasar, and I can see some beneficial methods... but I have to wonder... why are every one of Ceasar's clients aggressive dogs?
I would like to see a broader spectrum. I think a lot of the differences in opinion stem from the difference in clientale... Victoria has a broader range (I think about a mean little terrier from one episode compared to an exuberant boxer who was afraid of the back yard, to dogs who toilet in the house in another) of clients and difficulties, so we can't judge apples to apples per se.
luvthevic wrote:Cesar changes behavior of dog and owner.
Vic trains dogs with treats.
Victoria doesn't just use treats, not all dogs will work for treats, she uses what will work, treats, toys, praise etc.
Actually I would say Cesar changes dog behavior and encourages people to abuse their dogs and not spoil them. he uses pain and fear.
He doesn't change the dogs behaviour, he shuts the dogs down because they can't cope with what he is doing. This is very dangerous.
I watch Ceasar, and I can see some beneficial methods... but I have to wonder... why are every one of Ceasar's clients aggressive dogs?
They are not all aggressive dogs but often dogs that are crying out for help, he ignores this and puts them under so much pressure they can't cope so they shut down. Extremely dangerous.
My point about changing behavior was against him not for him. He does change behavior, even if it is shutting them down, he makes them act differently. My point was he changes ONLY behavior so it appears to "work" but Victoria Goes and changes the dog's mindset which in turn changes behavior. Cesar causes a dog who still feels the same and is now just too afraid to act on his emotions, which makes for a stressed dog who is forced to hold in his emotions through huge amounts of stress and fear. Victoria Makes that initial emotion go away through positive association.
For instance last night with the DA bulldog (AWESOME episode) Cesar would have grabbed the dog and rolled him onto his back (scary and stressful) or jabbed him in the neck harder and harder. Yes the dog probably would have held back but on the inside he'd still really, really want the other dog to go away. So his fear of dogs would be coupled with his fear of being attacked by his owner which is a huge state of stress. THEN the owner would think the dog was okay with dogs and would bring him around them, so the dog would be forced to endure long periods of this stress and fear. Whether or not he would finally snap and release his pent up emotions depends on what the other dogs do. I bet if one humped him or aggressed at him, even in a minor way, he would snap.
What the lady did with the spray collar was similar, she sprayed him in the face before he even aggressed at the dog which in the end probably caused him to feel even more nervous when other dogs approached, he held it in though in hopes the spray would stop (until he got used to the spray of course, that often happens with punishment, you must get harsher and harsher to keep it working).
Victoria changed the dog's way of seeing dogs, they meant good things would happen, when he saw them he started saying "mom, look a dog, do I get a treat now?" and the answer was yes. Dogs became a predictor of good things. I was amazed how quickly he was able to actually come into contact with other dogs. And unless a Cesar trained dog, he would have no fear of the dog or of being attacked by his owner, he'd be relaxed, his mind has changed about dogs, they are not scary anymore.
AWESOME episode, I think they did awesome with that dog, really smart dog too he caught onto the commands fast.
Border Collie Momma wrote:I watch Ceasar, and I can see some beneficial methods... but I have to wonder... why are every one of Ceasar's clients aggressive dogs?
Probably because Cesar's claim to fame, long before he actually became famous, was rehabing very aggressive dogs that were at high risk of being euthanized.
The dogs aren't all aggressive though. I've seen lots of non-aggression cases on the TV show.
There are similarities between Victoria’s training methods and Cesar‘s and I don’t find fault with either one of them. I ‘m pleased that Victoria is now filming her program in the US. People who criticize Cesar
should really take the time to look at his background. He is always called upon to save red zone cases from euthanasia. In the beginning of his show there is a disclaimer about using a qualified trainer and not trying to attempt to retrain red zone cases on your own. He knows how to put a dog in a rollover/submissive position and of course the dog will protest but no one should be doing this other own pet or anyone else’s.
I watched an episode of Victoria’s show and was horrified to see that this owner had used a shock collar when the dog was a 5 month old puppy and then used a spray collar. I commend Victoria for holding her tongue she was very diplomatic with this woman who didn’t deserve it.
andie wrote: People who criticize Cesar should really take the time to look at his background.
His background has nothing to do with training dogs unless it is how he gained his experience. My background was growing up in Liverpool in the 60s, fantastic time but has nothing to do with how I work with my dogs or anyone elses.
He is always called upon to save red zone cases from euthanasia. In the beginning of his show there is a disclaimer about using a qualified trainer and not trying to attempt to retrain red zone cases on your own. He knows how to put a dog in a rollover/submissive position and of course the dog will protest but no one should be doing this other own pet or anyone else’s.
That is to save the program makers and nothing to do with the dogs, these are entertainment programs as well so things are done to raise the amount of people viewing them.
Very few aggressive dogs can't be turned round with positive methods, those that can't have something wrong with them, ie brain tumour. There is not need to alpha roll a dog or force them into submission to turn the round. In fact doing this to a dog shuts them down and they then become even more dangerous. Dogs don't stay shut down forever and that behaviour will return much worse because the dog has learnt not to trust humans, they hurt him.
CM swings dogs round on the end of a choke chain, a trainer in the UK was successfully sued last year for this. This is a barbaric practice and can do a lot of damage to a dog.
CM is not a qualified trainer either so that makes that rediculous.
I watched an episode of Victoria’s show and was horrified to see that this owner had used a shock collar when the dog was a 5 month old puppy and then used a spray collar. I commend Victoria for holding her tongue she was very diplomatic with this woman who didn’t deserve it.
Yes it can be very difficult at times with some owners but if you want to get through to them and help the dog you have to hold your tongue or the owner will walk away. A trainer who can't do this I wouldn't trust with any of my dogs because they don't have the patience to work through problems.
Anyone who has to use shoke and prong collars as well as helicopering a dog shouldn't be in dog training.
Shutting dogs down is not being a successful trainer, it is extremely dangerous to shut these dogs down and that is not training dogs, it is abusing them. He can't even read their body language, he can't see what the dogs are telling him and instead of listening to the dogs he continues to punish them.
It doesn't matter what animal you work with, dogs, horses even teenagers, you have much more success using positive methods than force.
I won't watch his programs, I can't watch the abuse or listen to him waffling on all the rubbish he does, but I have watched many clips etc over and over again to see if I was wrong, tried to see it from another view but the best way to see these is to turn the sound off so you can't hear him, you get a different aspect of the dog when you do this. If you then watch it again with the sould up, you will see just how mistaken he is.
Andi, with so many good, experienced people against him, don't you think there could be soming it what they are saying? Or is he right and everyone else wrong?
I have tried my best to resist getting into this debate, but i just find it so frustrating. It continues to amaze me that people continue to look at CM with such admiration. It has nothing to do with the production of tv shows, the personality, the dogs he uses or the hairstyle he choses or anything... it is simply that he uses a horrible and dangerous way to 'train' or 'rehabilitate' dogs.
I watch the show now and again, must be a car crash reflex i get or something, and the other day he was 'rehabilitating' a dog who had been tied up it's whole life and was being cared for by the vets who patched up the horrible wounds he had round his neck. He was a blood donor at the veterinary hospital and therefore had to be weighed regularly but had a fear of the scales. My eyes lit up when it showed CM taking the dog outside, putting the mat from the scales on the grass and feeding him rewards when the dog stood on the mat. I thought "wow, for once he is not pinning a dog for no apparent reason and actually using a bit of common sense". So he went through that exercise, and the next thing shown was him back inside, dragging the distressed dog onto the scales until it 'gave in'. So all the food incentives used outside were forgotten, it came down to brute force. And did he reward the dog by offering food in the end, no.. he said the reward was something along the lines of 'releasing pressure from the lead' (or not half choking the poor thing).
The fact that the show has to write "do not try at home" on the screens is surely enough evidence that they themselves are confessing that the 'training' shown is actually potentially very dangerous and could quite easily result in more extreme issues.
I have no allegiance with any trainer you see on TV, I just don't like to see dogs pinned, poked, psshhhht'd, pinch collared and provoked and it being called "dog training".
Now i'll step off my soap box and get a drink.....
I watch both shows, and think that both VS and CM do a good job with their own methods. A lot of the foundations between the two are very similar, and it's unfortunate that some people can't see this. We have to remember that Cesar typically works with older dogs, who's inappropriate behaviors are already well established and often thought to be a lost cause. In that sense he's more of a rehabilitator than a trainer. I keep seeing the same criticism of CM anywhere somebody's criticizing him. It's so predictable at this point. It's always:
- Uses fear and pain to shut down a dog. Specifically references to "choking", "alpha rolls" and "flooding"
- Focuses too much on pack mentality
- Does not have credentials or education in dog training
First of all, flooding. This is when someone is forced to confront their fears by being thrown headfirst into the very situation that they are afraid of. Sink or swim essentially. Cesar does not do this. He uses classical conditioning with positive reinforcement to gradually introduce the fearful dog to the situation in a slow process. On a recent show of his with a dog that was fearful of water, he slowly lead the dog to the pool using treats and affection until the dog was comfortable enough to get into the pool. Flooding would have been to throw the dog in the pool. If the intention is for the dog to overcome their fear, they must confront it at some point. No amount of clicking will overcome that fear for them. Gradual, positively reinforced introduction of the stress trigger is the best way to do it. Wouldn't you know it, but that's what VS does too.
Alpha rolls. If someone had never seen the show, the way his critics describe it would give them the impression that all he does is roll a dog on it's back. Not the case. Please watch one show (because most of his critics readily admit to not watching his show) and count the number of times he alpha rolls any dogs. Please.
Choking. I don't see this. I see a handler momentarily tug on a leash to redirect a dog's attention away from something it's obsessing on before the bad behavior starts. I don't see a dog in pain. Dogs are very clear about communicating when something hurts them. None of the dogs he has on the leash yelp, bark or squeal when he "chokes" them. It's a redirection, that is all. He keeps the lead loose, so that any tension on it is instantly picked up by the dog. The amount of force needed for this to be an effective tool is less than the dog would put on it's own neck if it was allowed to pull on the lead. In the years that I've watched the show, the only time I've seen a dog nearly choked is when it's being handled by it's owners before Cesar has a chance to work with it.
Pack mentality. I'm sorry, but this is really mostly for the HUMANS that Cesar works with. He does this to establish discipline roles with the humans, not dominate the dogs. It's a language that most humans, untrained in dog behavior, can understand. He uses it to point out when a human is reinforcing bad behavior with rewards, and corrects them by showing them appropriate responses to their dog's behavior. Responses that dogs can understand. He may call it being a pack leader, but really it's just being a responsible dog owner. And for those of you who say dogs are not wolves, and are therefore not pack animals... please take a look at what happens when domesticated dogs are set loose. They revert to packs because they have no order and discipline in their lives. All he is doing is reinforcing the importance of social order to the dog owners.
And as far as his education is concerned, the proof is in the pudding. If his lack of "education" had an impact on what he could actually accomplish, then he wouldn't be where he is today. This is not just a gimmick. He was rehabilitating dogs using these methods long before he was famous. His ability to do that successfully is what lead to his fame.
And at the end of the day, it works. These are not defeated animals. If you watch his show, you will see wagging tails, energetic and playful dogs. If they were depressed, or shut down, I don't believe that he would be getting away with it. If he's truly creating a massive amount of dogs out there who are just ticking time bombs waiting to go off, as some seem to be suggesting, then where are those dogs? I don't see that at all. I see Cesar breaking the stress cycle for these dogs, by not allowing them to obsess about what stresses them out. After they spend time leading calm and stress-free lives, they realize that they don't need to be aggressive or obsessive anymore.
