I know in the recent light of things that this has been a very difficult topic to discuss and I fully understand if it is removed but I do not intend to offend, only to tell my story.
I did not see the programme on the two cockers, my mum's friend recently showed me a newspaper clipping on the programme and due to my own experiences I was compelled to contact victoria, instead finding this forum.
Until this summer just gone, my family were also the owners of the most beautiful golden cocker spaniel, also called Bramble, in fact if I knew how, I'd post a picture of her on here because she was GORGEOUS, we bought her from a recommended breeder as a puppy and she was the runt of the litter, she in fact, stayed puppy sized through the years we had her, making her look even more adorable.
Our first year with bramble was completely trouble free until she went to stay at a kennels for two weeks while we went to france. When she came out of the kennels she shook non stop, growled, snarled and snapped. We were horrifed, what on earth had happened! Upon taking her to the vet it was put down as shock, and was later diagnosed as a phantom pregnancy which involved her guarding all her toys - her 'babies'. We were advised by a behaviourist to have her spayed to prevent any more phantom pregnancies occuring, but were also told by our vet that there was a small chance that spaying her immediately could cause the symptoms to reoccur. No one mentioning rage syndrome at this point.
After spaying bramble returned to normal for about a year but still displayed signs of nervous behaviour, we chose to give her time to recover from her phantom preganancy and patiently waited for her to become herself again.
I cannot pin point when her behaviour turned from bad to worse, to be honest I think I have repressed a lot of my bad memories of her, as it still hurts me to think about it. But basically bramble gradually started to do silly things, such as guard rotten apples from the garden, she had a passion for dirty tissues and would snap if we tried to remove them from her. We spoke to our dog owning friends, amny of whom came to see what she was doing, not believing such a cute dog could be violent and despite wanrings from us to back off a few of them had near misses when she snapped at them.
One thing in particular that told us when she was feeling dodgey was that her eyes changed colour, almost appearing to completely mist over.
We seeked advice from a behaviourist from fear of her causing injury to friends and spent a long time and a lot of money trying to move bramble from the top of 'the pack' to the bottom. Eventually we managed to re-establish my mum as pack leader, doing things such as eating before bramble, controlling the use of toys etc
We also later rescued a dominant female cat (as recommended by our behaviourist) to dominate bramble, this also helped matters greatly and we had another brilliant 6 months with her with only a few occasions of snapping and growling, which were mostly kept under control my mum and myself using voice control and sending her to her crate which was bramble's 'safe haven' where she could go if she became upset.
*I would like to stress that her crate was not a cage, it was large enough for two cocker spaniels and the door was always kept open so she could come and go.*
Bramble's behaviour became irrational again and upon taking her to the vets we discovered she had a bladder infection which reccured frequently and required the use of medication. We hoped that this was the cause of the irrational behaviour but despite the infection clearing up she continued to snap and snarl for no apparent reason, simply walking past her bed could prompt a growl.
Our next course of action was a homeopathic vet and bramble was put on a course of calming treatments which worked to a degree but not enough for her to stop growling and snapping for no reason.
We eventually lost hope that we could ever keep bramble and so rang her breeder on the off chance that they could take her back, as they had no children, the breeder jumped at the chance to have her back, until we told her that bramble had been spayed. The breeder then changed her mind stating that there was no way that bramble could earn her keep and so was no use to her.
The woman actually planned to breed from bram despite knowing she had severe disposition problems!!!! We were shocked by this and now have reason to believe that bram's background was not as perfect as it should have been.
We did not try to rehome her with a centre and I know this may upset some people, but we were advised by a number of different vets that it was unlikely she would be taken on, we HAD explored ALL forms of re-training and treatment without much progress which would have most certainly discouraged some centres.
We tried so hard to keep her for four long years but this summer, my parents decided for mine and my brothers sake that there was no other option. I still feel particularly awful about it, as I am a music student playing both clarinet/sax/piano, and the one thing that my parents kept agonising over was "What if she got Claire's fingers, that would be the end of her career, we could never forgive ourselves".
I almost wish I'd chosen another career, anything that might have let me keep bramble but I know thats silly.
I cried when I read some of the answers in the forum, because until you've gone through such a terrible thing, you really don't understand how much you feel that you've failed your dog.
The reason that me and my mum didnt catch the programme with tom's dogs was because since bramble went, we havent been able to watch any of victoria's programmes because we feel so guilty that despite how hard we tried, we still couldn't help bramble, and that we had to let a gorgeous healthy dog die.
Apologies if I've rambled on and apologies if I've caused any offence but we should ALL be supporting both Tom and his family AND Victoria for not only having to deal with such a traumatic ordeal but having to relive it through the media.
I hope people get to read this post, perhaps it could be locked so no arguments can occur? Thanks x
Rage syndrome - case scenario
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
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sax_appeal_ct
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:35 pm
- Location: Oxfordshire
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sax_appeal_ct
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:35 pm
- Location: Oxfordshire
Having just spoken to my mother who after reading the forums has also just emailed Victoria! I did not get my facts straight about the homeopathic vet, her remedy to calm bramble's hormones thus preventing guarding behaviour DID work initially but wore off eventually and no more treatment could be undertaken. Another brighter point is that the homeopathic vet also gave us travel sickness pills for bramble which I must say worked brilliantly and I would definitely recommend them to others! Bramble loved trips in the car and the absence of doggy sick everywhere made life so much easier!
I dont think YOU have done anything wrong here at all.
You tried to find a good breeder, you tried to solve her problems, you trusted various vets and trainers.
I also don't think that Bramble had Rage Syndrome though.
I could be wrong, but in my experience, Rage Syndrome doesnt come and go, and Rage Syndrome dogs dont need a trigger for the behaviour.
Aggressive guarding behaviour is all too common in spaniels, notably in spaniels who have come from a dodgy background with little or no regard given to temperament of ancestors. This sounds as if it was the case for your poor Bramble.
I can also quite confidently state that Brambles problems will not have had anything to do wtih her being dominant, or her position in the pack, because dogs DONT see humans as pack members, even with other dogs, the status of each family dog changes dependant on the situation!
Attempting to overpower a dog mentally or physically to re-balance some misguided idea of pack between animals and humans can and sadly often does, end up wtih an animal reacting in an extreme way.
Of course you were NOT to know this, if Bramble had been my first dog i certainly wouldnt have known, nor would i have known that dominance and pack theory is false and can lead to dangerous techniques.
I also suspect that although Brambles problems WERENT rage, its very likely she would always have been unpredictable and dangerous, as it sounds like most of the problems stemmed from her breeding, rather than environmental/up bringing issues.
So either way, you and your family did the right thing for Bramble - i can tell you now, a great many people would have given up the second things got difficult and a horrifically large number would have handed her over to rescue omitting the facts about her problems and leaving other people at risk.
Chin up, you did do the right thing. Now its time to get back on the horse and if you stick around adn raed the forum you'll learn a lot more about how dogs think and why they can behave the way they do.
Em xx
You tried to find a good breeder, you tried to solve her problems, you trusted various vets and trainers.
I also don't think that Bramble had Rage Syndrome though.
I could be wrong, but in my experience, Rage Syndrome doesnt come and go, and Rage Syndrome dogs dont need a trigger for the behaviour.
Aggressive guarding behaviour is all too common in spaniels, notably in spaniels who have come from a dodgy background with little or no regard given to temperament of ancestors. This sounds as if it was the case for your poor Bramble.
I can also quite confidently state that Brambles problems will not have had anything to do wtih her being dominant, or her position in the pack, because dogs DONT see humans as pack members, even with other dogs, the status of each family dog changes dependant on the situation!
Attempting to overpower a dog mentally or physically to re-balance some misguided idea of pack between animals and humans can and sadly often does, end up wtih an animal reacting in an extreme way.
Of course you were NOT to know this, if Bramble had been my first dog i certainly wouldnt have known, nor would i have known that dominance and pack theory is false and can lead to dangerous techniques.
I also suspect that although Brambles problems WERENT rage, its very likely she would always have been unpredictable and dangerous, as it sounds like most of the problems stemmed from her breeding, rather than environmental/up bringing issues.
So either way, you and your family did the right thing for Bramble - i can tell you now, a great many people would have given up the second things got difficult and a horrifically large number would have handed her over to rescue omitting the facts about her problems and leaving other people at risk.
Chin up, you did do the right thing. Now its time to get back on the horse and if you stick around adn raed the forum you'll learn a lot more about how dogs think and why they can behave the way they do.
Em xx
Thank you for your post and I'm so sorry to hear what happened. Yes there have been a lot of differences of opinion regarding the programme about what should have been done by people who weren't there and had not gone through the experience of having an unpredictable dog, enduring attacks and having to make the awful decision to put the dog down. I think if they had to experience for just a minute what you and the family that I worked with had to go through, they would be less quick to judge.
What everyone seems to forget is that people like myself and all those fantastic trainers out there (Emmabeth!) spend their lives trying to make dogs lives better. For years before the programme I rescued and saved the lives of countless dogs that had various problems including aggression. Trainers like myself work with aggressive dogs everyday and with time and a lot of work these dogs can live a safe and happy life. Very occasionally though there is a dog that is just too unpredictable and a danger to society even with training and management or rehoming is just not an option. Unfortunately you had such a dog but you stuck at it for a long time before making that hard decision.
You sound like very responsible and caring owners and I hope your experience won't stop you getting another dog because there are so many out there wating for a good home.
I appreciate your post and I do hope that you are feeling better.
Victoria
What everyone seems to forget is that people like myself and all those fantastic trainers out there (Emmabeth!) spend their lives trying to make dogs lives better. For years before the programme I rescued and saved the lives of countless dogs that had various problems including aggression. Trainers like myself work with aggressive dogs everyday and with time and a lot of work these dogs can live a safe and happy life. Very occasionally though there is a dog that is just too unpredictable and a danger to society even with training and management or rehoming is just not an option. Unfortunately you had such a dog but you stuck at it for a long time before making that hard decision.
You sound like very responsible and caring owners and I hope your experience won't stop you getting another dog because there are so many out there wating for a good home.
I appreciate your post and I do hope that you are feeling better.
Victoria
Reading that has made me so sad for you, and so angry that you had to go through it.
I think you've been let down by your breeder and your behaviourist (dominant female cat???) and it's ended in tragedy for all of you.
I agree with Emmabeth it doesn't sound like true rage, but it does sound like a genetically 'dodgy' dog, bred by an awful breeder and exacerbated by terrible training advice.
There is fault here and there is a need for guilt, but not on your part. All you wanted was a family pet, and the only mistake you made was to trust people who were, at best, misguided and at worst, just out for money.
Please don't let it put you off getting another dog though, you are dedicated, loving people who are keen to learn. If you find the right dog, and attend the right puppy classes, you'll be fine. YOU were not the problem.
You deserve to experience all the good things that come from dog ownership, and I really hope you and your family can put this behind you and move on together.
PS Where abouts in Oxfordshire are you? If you're anywhere near Witney I can recommend an absolutely wonderful trainer.
I think you've been let down by your breeder and your behaviourist (dominant female cat???) and it's ended in tragedy for all of you.
I agree with Emmabeth it doesn't sound like true rage, but it does sound like a genetically 'dodgy' dog, bred by an awful breeder and exacerbated by terrible training advice.
There is fault here and there is a need for guilt, but not on your part. All you wanted was a family pet, and the only mistake you made was to trust people who were, at best, misguided and at worst, just out for money.
Please don't let it put you off getting another dog though, you are dedicated, loving people who are keen to learn. If you find the right dog, and attend the right puppy classes, you'll be fine. YOU were not the problem.
You deserve to experience all the good things that come from dog ownership, and I really hope you and your family can put this behind you and move on together.
PS Where abouts in Oxfordshire are you? If you're anywhere near Witney I can recommend an absolutely wonderful trainer.
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goldendood
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:03 pm
- Location: Minnesota, USA
Rage Syndrome
This post is much belated, judging from the dates of the previous posts, but I've only just arrived 
I, too, had an experience with CRS, though didn't realize what is (perhaps) was until after the fact. Our Dalmatian began showing signs of what we believed to be aggressive behavior when he was about 2, initially reacting with snarls, growls and lunging toward visitors, though not ALL visitors and not on all occasions.
As time went on, his behavior escalated to attacks that we could, nominally at least, describe as provoked. Most seemed to be attempts to "protect" our daughter...from her boyfriend AND my husband. Following these episodes, he would withdraw into a corner and shake uncontrolably. It was time to bring in a behaviorist.
Her assessment, based on observation within the family dynamics, was that his behavior would only escalate further. We could "manage" him, but would live with constant anxiety that he would bite again, perhaps severly. She advised that we have him put down.
Our daughter was devasted. Unwilling to consider having him put down, we did, indeed, "manage" him for several months. He was removed to another room when visitors were expected, and watched closely when with the family. Then one day the unthinkable happened. Totally unprovoked, he lunged at our daughter and bit her in the face. It was time to make a decision - rehome him, or euthanize him. Though we knew someone who would have taken him in, the liability issues were just of too much concern. And so, at the age of 4, an otherwise healthy, beautiful animal left this earth.
My friend the behaviorist later read an article about CRS, and thought it very possible that this was Pogo's problem. Was it? Who's to say. Was the breeder careless or uneducated about CRS? Perhaps. Whatever the cause, the results were a waste of a life and many regrets.
I, too, had an experience with CRS, though didn't realize what is (perhaps) was until after the fact. Our Dalmatian began showing signs of what we believed to be aggressive behavior when he was about 2, initially reacting with snarls, growls and lunging toward visitors, though not ALL visitors and not on all occasions.
As time went on, his behavior escalated to attacks that we could, nominally at least, describe as provoked. Most seemed to be attempts to "protect" our daughter...from her boyfriend AND my husband. Following these episodes, he would withdraw into a corner and shake uncontrolably. It was time to bring in a behaviorist.
Her assessment, based on observation within the family dynamics, was that his behavior would only escalate further. We could "manage" him, but would live with constant anxiety that he would bite again, perhaps severly. She advised that we have him put down.
Our daughter was devasted. Unwilling to consider having him put down, we did, indeed, "manage" him for several months. He was removed to another room when visitors were expected, and watched closely when with the family. Then one day the unthinkable happened. Totally unprovoked, he lunged at our daughter and bit her in the face. It was time to make a decision - rehome him, or euthanize him. Though we knew someone who would have taken him in, the liability issues were just of too much concern. And so, at the age of 4, an otherwise healthy, beautiful animal left this earth.
My friend the behaviorist later read an article about CRS, and thought it very possible that this was Pogo's problem. Was it? Who's to say. Was the breeder careless or uneducated about CRS? Perhaps. Whatever the cause, the results were a waste of a life and many regrets.
To me, that doesnt sound like Rage. Theres too much potential provocation there for that to be rage.... however.
A dog as you describe is clearly not a happy dog, if he is giving out signals that say he is feeling threatened and feeling the need to defend himself, they clearly are not that obvious and so , rage syndrome or not, I think you made the right decision.
A dog as you describe is clearly not a happy dog, if he is giving out signals that say he is feeling threatened and feeling the need to defend himself, they clearly are not that obvious and so , rage syndrome or not, I think you made the right decision.
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goldendood
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:03 pm
- Location: Minnesota, USA
When CRS was described to me as possibly being connected to epilpsy, it seemed to fit with Pogo's physical response after these episodes...as if something had short-circuited. It's all a moot point now, of course, but it did help to think there might be some explanation for his issues - nothing else seemed to make sense.
We didn't wait long to bring another dog into our lives - a beautiful red-headed Golden. She was the best, and we could trust her with our grandbabies. We lost her just this spring, but I think she was reincarnated in our new Dood...
We didn't wait long to bring another dog into our lives - a beautiful red-headed Golden. She was the best, and we could trust her with our grandbabies. We lost her just this spring, but I think she was reincarnated in our new Dood...
