I can not believe it !

Discussion of Victoria's TV show, It's Me or the Dog.

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Cheetah
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Post by Cheetah » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:16 pm

Yoshi wrote:
Cheetah wrote:I saw this episode, so it was aired in the US.
How long ago did you see it? I'm curious to know, now that I've made an idiot out of myself... :oops:
You didn't make an idiot of yourself, you probably just missed the show. I always forget my shows are on, so I know how it is. The only way I managed to catch the episode was as a rerun on my DVR, so I have no idea when it was first aired here. >^^;<
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Post by Mollysmom » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:01 pm

Yoshi wrote:
Cheetah wrote:I saw this episode, so it was aired in the US.
How long ago did you see it? I'm curious to know, now that I've made an idiot out of myself... :oops:
Yoshi, I'll tell you what my cheerleading coach taught me in High School

You never make an idiot out of yourself. If you screw up, you did it on purpose, everyone ELSE is screwing up.
In other words, pretend you did it on purpose ^.^
haha I haven't seen it either but as of late I've only had one channel at home... GSN the Game Show Network! Big Bucks No Whammie!
/comfort lol!
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Post by lablver2 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:56 am

From what I believe I had read the dog may of had Canine Rage syndrome which is common in spaniels. I do not know as I never saw the episode.
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Rescueteam
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Post by Rescueteam » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:14 pm

I am curious as to the "tried everything statement"

Can anyone tell me exactly what was tried and by whom as this seems to be the main qualifier for deciding to put the dog down.

I think it is important in being honest,deligent, and intelligent to presnet the important facts in this case and of course no matter what the owners have the right to make that decision regardless....but in this case specific reasoning was given which included the statment that "everything was tried"

Would or dif these owners consider using mehtods that are not approved of by Victoria tried and if so I think knowing who the particular expert that implimented them was.

just a thought and concern in dealing with such terminal results.

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Post by BoardHost » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:17 pm

Rescueteam, this has been widely covered many times. Ultimately, the dog was diagnosed by the vet as having neurological condition informally called 'cocker rage', making the training philosophies employed by its various trainers irrelevant.
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Post by lablver2 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:31 pm

Family always comes before the dogs no matter how close you are to the dog. My dog is my family but if he had ever bit a child or adult for no reason what so ever I am sorry but I would have to make the painful decision of having him PTS.

I learned this lesson when I was 5 years old. My grandparents had a flat coated retriever that I was very close to. Very very close to. He was my best friend and in my mind he was my dog. Well he also got very old and had the worst case of arthritis possible. Well I was playing with him just petting his head. He was licking me and we were having a ball. I was being so gentle as I knew he had problems and I didn't want to hurt him. One of the other dogs walked by and I think touched where he had arthritis. The next thing I know I heard a yelp then a mouth then blood running down from my mouth. I remember the wound was deep but not deep enough where I needed stitches. After we treated the wound I just laughed and went to sit on the couch and watched TV. I honestly could care less the dog bit me. Trust me I'm no ordinary person. Well the next thing I know my grandfather comes in the room and said the dog was going to be PTS the next day. That's when I started bawling and begging not to kill the dog. I remember even saying don't kill my dog it wasnt his fault it was mine. I lied to save my friend. It didn't work though because both my grandma ( who passed away just a year after it happened) and my mom witnessed what happened. RJ was PTS but not until I cryed i snuck away and cried into his black silky fur and telling him goodbye.

Looking back now the best thing to do was to put RJ asleep. He was in pain and he bit a kid he dearly loved because of his pain. To this day my family is shocked I am so passionate about dogs despite what happened years ago. I remember the incident clearly and just look at it as a learning experience. It is a painful descision putting a dog to sleep despite how close he/she is to family but in some cases it has to be done. Once a dog bites a person chances are the dog will do it again and it's a heavy liability. It's not worth putting someone's life at risk.
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Post by Rescueteam » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:41 pm

Boardhost having not watched that particular episode my question and curiousty still stands in inquiring if (everything was tried" if a leading expert using alternative conditioning methods was utlized and was unsuccesful? Working in rescue for 2 decades has taught me that sometimes a second opinon might be fruitful but I can understand not strecting this case out is prudent. Just wondering about an all out attempt at really trying "everything". Thanks for the additional info as I am so busy checking out the many dog training shows/books that I sometimes miss an episode of a particular show. I am really strecthed out keeping up with everyhting in the training world :oops:
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Post by Gershep1 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:34 am

Wow, this is a tough issue. I can't fault Victoria at all. Even Cesar Millan (ha, ha -- I know you'll love the comparison) had to report that a toy Manchester terrier he tried to rehab was PTS.

If a dog is so far gone that it attacks to the point of mauling anyone, maybe there's no other choice.

However, I have to say that society today has become a bit child-centric, and often unrealistic expectations are put upon an animal. For example, one of my relatives told me that when her children were toddlers, they stepped on her Boxer's scrotum and he did not react, and that's that way all dogs should be. Good luck.

I also know of a rescue situation where two German shepherds needed a new home because the owners had a new grandchild and the child's mother objected to the dogs that had never shown any aggression toward anyone. It wasn't enough to put the dogs outside when they visited with the child. Nope, the dogs had to be gone completely. Does that make sense?

My opinion is that you never leave a small child alone with a dog of any size. It's sad when a child is bitten, but a dog that bites a child may have had good reason and re-homing them should be considered before automatically having them PTS.

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Post by Mattie » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:54 am

katowaggytail wrote:I saw that episode.

Yes it was upseting, but, if my memory is correct, the family had tried all sorts of methods to stop the dog from biting... and they didn't work. I believe, and it was a long time ago that this epsode was aired in the UK, that the dog bit the child.

Bramble was PTS and buried in the family garden, a choice not taken lightly by anyone especially the family.

I do not believe that Victoria was incapacable, nor her advice wrong. The family came to their own descision.

Rescueteam, this is a quote from one of the first posts on this thread, in the UK people who go onto these programs have tried other trainers and behaviourists who all work differently. Victoria was their last stop with thiis dog as is usual over here.

Victoria isn't alone with recommending a dog being pts, it has happened in other programs with other trainers, it happened in Dog Borstal. For those that don't know Dog Borstal, it is boot camp for dogs and owners.

The other day I took a phone call from someone who wanted to rehome a dog, he had just had his dog pts because of aggression, bit quite a lot of people and killed a cat. He said he tried everything to turn this dog round but judging by what he said, the trainers he had were the old school.

I have friends who are trainers and behaviourists who all get far too much work from old school trainers, many have turned the dogs aggressive with the training methods used.

Only the owners of the dog knows who they went to for advice, what advice was given and what effect it had on the dog. I know from the pound I work with that there are dogs that are too far gone to do anything with, to try would be putting people at risk. As it is a pound they normally have to wait the 7 days before pts the dogs but there have been cases were the dog has been so bad that they had to pts shortly after the dog came in.

What I am trying to say is, sometimes no matter how hard we work, no matter how hard we want to, we do have to pts a dog for their safety and the safety of other people. It isn't decision taken lightly, especially by a family who love their dog.

Nobody has all the answers, if there were people that did, there wouldn't be so many messed up dogs.
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Post by Rescueteam » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:50 am

Mattie in attempts to be most focused like a lazer on my curiousity let me try and elaborate further.

As a trainer who has been around many years using everything out there I have experience thousands of times people saying things like "we tried that method" or "we tried that tool" and it did not work for us therefore we have no faith in that particular approach and I am sure most have heard this before.

Quite often people tend to use the power of individual experiences and testomonials to convey inaccurate generalizations to quantify a position which is the way we humans do. My curiousity in this particular matter is simply this. I deal with putting a lot of dogs to sleep because of not being able to find them a home because of behavior and know how it all goes down. I have had vets,behaviorists, and trainers tell me one thing and then when I get other opinions I find that a resolution of other sorts are possible. Many times I have had a vet say this dog cannot be rehabbed or conditioned and have easily found someone who says the opposite. It is quite common in the dog training world that no two trainers think alike or have the same skills in achieving exceptable resolution to issues. This occurs in trainers in the same political camp on both or all sides and just because a particular approach failed for one trainer does not mean it would not be succesful having found a different trainer....I am sure you understand my point here I hope.


So I simply would ask in all the things that were tried and failed WHO where the EXPERTS in there repective disciplines that failed to gain exceptable resolution or agreed that temination was the best way to go?


For some that is a moot point for me it certainly is not especially if you have ever experience similiar issues with he human elements that so often illustrate this issue.

Obviously no one in this discussion cares enough about this point to find it worth reseraching or noting in developing a through understanding except for maybe someone who is concerned with science..

cheers
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Post by animallover » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:08 pm

Rescueteam wrote:Mattie in attempts to be most focused like a lazer on my curiousity let me try and elaborate further.

As a trainer who has been around many years using everything out there I have experience thousands of times people saying things like "we tried that method" or "we tried that tool" and it did not work for us therefore we have no faith in that particular approach and I am sure most have heard this before.

Quite often people tend to use the power of individual experiences and testomonials to convey inaccurate generalizations to quantify a position which is the way we humans do. My curiousity in this particular matter is simply this. I deal with putting a lot of dogs to sleep because of not being able to find them a home because of behavior and know how it all goes down. I have had vets,behaviorists, and trainers tell me one thing and then when I get other opinions I find that a resolution of other sorts are possible. Many times I have had a vet say this dog cannot be rehabbed or conditioned and have easily found someone who says the opposite. It is quite common in the dog training world that no two trainers think alike or have the same skills in achieving exceptable resolution to issues. This occurs in trainers in the same political camp on both or all sides and just because a particular approach failed for one trainer does not mean it would not be succesful having found a different trainer....I am sure you understand my point here I hope.


So I simply would ask in all the things that were tried and failed WHO where the EXPERTS in there repective disciplines that failed to gain exceptable resolution or agreed that temination was the best way to go?


For some that is a moot point for me it certainly is not especially if you have ever experience similiar issues with he human elements that so often illustrate this issue.

Obviously no one in this discussion cares enough about this point to find it worth reseraching or noting in developing a through understanding except for maybe someone who is concerned with science..

cheers
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Post by lablver2 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:07 pm

Rescueteam-

I have to honestly ask you this. Imagine you are in a room with your child and your dog. Your child is just petting the dog and doing nothing that would harm or hurt the dog. All of a sudden with no warning signs the dog bites. It's your kid versus your dog. As much as I love my dog my child would always come first. If a dog has seriously bit a person for no apperant reason that dog is a serious liability not just for surrounding people but also for your pets, your kids and you yourself.

If a dog has made someone bleed seriously in the past where the person had to go to the hospital in the end, I'm sorry but the most humane and safest thing would be to put the dog to sleep.

I like to think that all dogs could go on living in harmony with all humans and never have a problem but sometimes in the end it doesn't work out that way.
I am a dog lover and stand up for all dogs. I don't believe in BSL and say to adopt. However I also want to live in a safe enviorment where I don't have to worry about the next time my dog will attack and who it will be.
Belgian: 6 year old English Chocolate Labrador Retriever.
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Post by Rescueteam » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:02 pm

Been there done that and do that every day in my profession.

It was not untill I was put into the position of determining which dog lives and which dog dies as a profession and had to
learned to ask the question just who is the best skilled at asking such opinions concerning rehab.

I concur there is a point where someone has to make a decision and I have learned that often there are those who we might not seek alternative resources

for help who could have been instrumental in creating a different outcome. I realize it is a matter of rsources in many cases and again my question and curiousity regardless of how cold it may seem is how would someone like me come to understand and agree with "everyting was tried". without know the specifics of the whats and the by whoms.

It is a question I have to ask myself and others weekly in hopefully preventing having to terminate a dogs life working in with people and rescue.

I guess it is just one of those delicate/touchy topics one should not discuss or ask questions about on a public forum because it is politically incorrect and is upsetting especially to those involved. It would be best that I not upset anyone further on this topic.


cheers
Be careful on how you treat your dog

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Post by Rescueteam » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:03 pm

sorry about the repeats as I thought I was in the edit mode...
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Post by lablver2 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:59 am

For me I have lived through it. I was the kid bit and I am a very rare case where it hasn't affeected me at all. However my own mother was bit so bad as a kid where she was hospitalized and had stitches all over her face. She even says her earliest childhood memory was of the dog bite. That dog was obviousley put down. She has been left with scars on her face and a fear of dogs. That didn't hold her back though as she encouraged me when I was very little ( my first word was dog) to continue with my passion. I did then once I was 10 years old my parents decided it was time that I got my first dog. We got the dog as a puppy and as he grew up he even helped my mom realize not all dogs are bad.

I have seen kids so traumatized by dog bites they scream and throw a fit they are so frightened. For me I couldn't bare knowing my dog did that and that I had to watch his every move not knowing when he will attack.

I have volunteered at rescues too. I have seen the ups and downs but there is no reason to keep an unpredictable dog when so many others that are loving and wouldn't hurt a fly are also in need of homes. Some dogs have been so messed up by their past where you never know what will happen and that is not safe for anyone.

My dog is my family. He keeps me safe at night and is with me all day. I can trust him with little kids. I supervise him with him but poor old Belgian would take a beating from little people any day as long as he gets to play with kids. He loves kids however I never let the kids do anything that could make him angry. with kids you need to take extra percautions as they are only so fragile
Belgian: 6 year old English Chocolate Labrador Retriever.
"The more boys I meet, the more I love my dog"-Carrie Underwood

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