neutering

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Re: neutering

Post by BoardHost » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:20 pm

While Victoria is working and is unavailable to comment on this thread, she has been made aware of it and wanted to emphasize that her recommendation to neuter Caspar was primarily based on her belief that the pet overpopulation problem in the US, especially with bully breeds, is out of control and stopping 'hobbyist' breeders who just feel like it's something they want to do is one of the best ways to combat this. Having seen firsthand the devastating consequences of a shelter system in the US that is overwhelmed with difficult-to-adopt bully breeds, she felt certain that Eric's decision to breed Caspar would have only contributed to that problem in the long run. While she is aware of the ongoing debate over the effects of neutering on behavior, this was not the main reason for her suggestion to neuter Caspar.
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Re: neutering

Post by nightsrainfall » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:57 pm

BoardHost wrote:While Victoria is working and is unavailable to comment on this thread, she has been made aware of it and wanted to emphasize that her recommendation to neuter Caspar was primarily based on her belief that the pet overpopulation problem in the US, especially with bully breeds, is out of control and stopping 'hobbyist' breeders who just feel like it's something they want to do is one of the best ways to combat this. Having seen firsthand the devastating consequences of a shelter system in the US that is overwhelmed with difficult-to-adopt bully breeds, she felt certain that Eric's decision to breed Caspar would have only contributed to that problem in the long run. While she is aware of the ongoing debate over the effects of neutering on behavior, this was not the main reason for her suggestion to neuter Caspar.
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Thanks for responding and sharing the information.
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Re: neutering

Post by wickedhippy » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:10 pm

BoardHost wrote:While Victoria is working and is unavailable to comment on this thread, she has been made aware of it and wanted to emphasize that her recommendation to neuter Caspar was primarily based on her belief that the pet overpopulation problem in the US, especially with bully breeds, is out of control and stopping 'hobbyist' breeders who just feel like it's something they want to do is one of the best ways to combat this. Having seen firsthand the devastating consequences of a shelter system in the US that is overwhelmed with difficult-to-adopt bully breeds, she felt certain that Eric's decision to breed Caspar would have only contributed to that problem in the long run. While she is aware of the ongoing debate over the effects of neutering on behavior, this was not the main reason for her suggestion to neuter Caspar.
Thanks!
Thanks for this response. That explains why she wanted Caspar neutered.
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Re: neutering

Post by Mattie » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:49 am

BoardHost wrote:While Victoria is working and is unavailable to comment on this thread, she has been made aware of it and wanted to emphasize that her recommendation to neuter Caspar was primarily based on her belief that the pet overpopulation problem in the US, especially with bully breeds, is out of control and stopping 'hobbyist' breeders who just feel like it's something they want to do is one of the best ways to combat this. Having seen firsthand the devastating consequences of a shelter system in the US that is overwhelmed with difficult-to-adopt bully breeds, she felt certain that Eric's decision to breed Caspar would have only contributed to that problem in the long run. While she is aware of the ongoing debate over the effects of neutering on behavior, this was not the main reason for her suggestion to neuter Caspar.
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Thanks BoardHost, the UK is the same now with the bull breeds which is why I am for the rescues neutering, would prefer all the byb and puppy farms closed but that is another issue. What I don't like is neuting 8 week old pups as is now happening with some of the RSPCA branches.
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Re: neutering

Post by jacksdad » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:18 am

wickedhippy wrote:Actually, it has been proven many times over that an un-neutered male could have SERIOUS behavioural problems. Not only that, but neutering can also be better for the health and well being of the dog as well... Check out this article about it;

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm ... 12&aid=911

Explain my dog then. a neutered male who has serious fear issues towards humans and other dogs.

If dogs are supposed to benefit behaviorally from neutering, explain the almost weekly occurrence of someone post to this very forum..HELP I have a dog who is neutered that is "aggressive"...or marking around the house....or afraid of people.....

There ARE VERY GOOD reasons to neuter a dog. However there are also SOME VERY BAD reasons being promoted to pressure and bully people into neutering.

The behavioral/medical "benefits" that are often causally thrown around are in my mind hugely suspect and needs some SERIOUS rethinking and be restudied. Just knowing how politics, ideology, social movements happen in this country I suspect a lot of the reasons we use to get people to neuter their animals are pure bunk. we use these "scary" or "guilt" producing arguments to compel action. Why can't we just use good info and truth and reason?

Because the whole to neuter / not to neuter has taken on strong ideology/politics/financial baggage to an almost religious level, we no longer take this question on a case by case bases. what is good for the THIS dog and THIS owner. Instead we "carpet bomb"...neuter them all ASAP or your a bad owner. It's getting so bad we are starting to see dogs "snipped" at earlier and earlier ages to the point even ardent "snip them all" people are saying whooo that is going to far.

Am I arguing that we shouldn't neuter. NO...A thousand times NO. What I am arguing is we need to SERIOUSLY change how we approach this question. Stop this snip them all or your an bad/evil owner attitude. Develop honest info, best practice guide lines for when to neuter when not to and when to hold off an neuter not "today" but "tomorrow".

There are in my opinion some VERY good reasons to either not or at least hold off just a "little" while neutering a dog. Breeding/being "macho"/ making them "less manly" have NOTHING to do with good reasons to hold of or not all.

My dog has taught me a lot and one of the things he has taught me is neutering is NOT a miracle cure for behavior issues. If anything neutering at the wrong time runs the risk of accentuating the issues. My dog has seriously caused me to question EVERYTHING we THINK we know about this issue and has instilled a desire to rediscover the truth about intact dogs vs neutered and when is the most ethical time to make the choice to neuter or not and if not learn the right reasons why you would not or hold off.

Again...I am NOT anti neuter. What I am saying is we need to rethink this question, just like we are rethinking the best way to train a dog is to NOT beat them or to NO use prong collars or other harsh methods. WE NEED to re evaluate why and when we neuter our dogs. Population control is a good reason, but it can't be the ONLY overwhelming drive because clearly it's NOT working and we are seeing more and more dogs who ARE neutered with behavior issues, which then increases the risk of that dog being put back into the "system". Neutering in it's self is probably not the sole cause of what we are seeing today, but I strongly suspect the way we are going about neutering today is a serious contributing factor.

People, we questioned training methods and found a better way. Lets question our current practices/attitudes in regards to neutering and find a better way in this area too.

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Re: neutering

Post by Mattie » Mon May 02, 2011 9:46 am

wickedhippy wrote:You're right - she said "some people" as well. Unfortunately, I think it's more than necessary - I guess even one that thinks that way is bad.
Why are they bad? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just because they differ from your's doesn't make them bad people.
I'm sure that you're right about your dog too - though that might not be the case with a lot of other dogs.


It is the case with far too many dogs, try working with a full grown Staffy that is locked in puppyhood, it isn't easy especially one that hasn't had any previous training.
I am not saying how people should think - just agreeing with Victoria's reasoning. We all have our own thoughts about this I guess.
You are telling us how to think, you said that someone who is frightened of neutering their dog will change them is bad. I know now this isn't your intention but you are coming across as telling others that they think wrong and they should think the way you do, all you are doing is putting people's backs up, they then turn off and don't listen to what you are saying.
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Re: neutering

Post by wickedhippy » Tue May 03, 2011 9:59 am

You are telling us how to think, you said that someone who is frightened of neutering their dog will change them is bad. I know now this isn't your intention but you are coming across as telling others that they think wrong and they should think the way you do, all you are doing is putting people's backs up, they then turn off and don't listen to what you are saying.
How I agree with someone else's opinion is not telling everyone else how to think. I've only agreed with an opinion - and have stated that. I don't understand why it's okay for everyone else to give an opinion, and I'm not. I seem to get your back up everytime, and it seems it's just because you disagree with me. I don't have a personal problem with anyone giving their own opinion until they make it personal by going after me specifically. That isn't how to talk to people. By calling them out personally. I will not apologize for having an opinion, just like I wouldn't expect anyone else to apologize for having a different opinion.

If this forum is to teach and exchange ideas - then you're presenting it the wrong way. Because every time I have a different idea from you, it is "wrong", or "trying to tell others how to think".

I even said in my last sentence that you quoted that I'm not trying to tell peopole how to think - I just agree with that specific reasoning. How can you turn that into that I'm trying to change people's minds to how I think?

As far as giving an opinion when it's asked for, if we all waited to be asked, no one would be able to talk at all. ;)

I'm asking you nicely to stop pointing out my opinion as something wrong - as it's no more wrong or right than anyone else's. It's an opinion, that's all. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you. And I would truly appreciate not being called out every time I post a different thought than you. Thanks. :)
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Re: neutering

Post by Mattie » Tue May 03, 2011 10:42 am

wickedhippy wrote: How I agree with someone else's opinion is not telling everyone else how to think. I've only agreed with an opinion - and have stated that. I don't understand why it's okay for everyone else to give an opinion, and I'm not. I seem to get your back up everytime, and it seems it's just because you disagree with me. I don't have a personal problem with anyone giving their own opinion until they make it personal by going after me specifically. That isn't how to talk to people. By calling them out personally. I will not apologize for having an opinion, just like I wouldn't expect anyone else to apologize for having a different opinion.
It isn't about if you agree or not with someone's opinion, it is how you write what you believe, you are writing in such a way that it comes over as if it is the only way or thought.
If this forum is to teach and exchange ideas - then you're presenting it the wrong way. Because every time I have a different idea from you, it is "wrong", or "trying to tell others how to think".
It has nothing to do with what you think but the way you are writing what you think, it comes across as if it is the only way.
I even said in my last sentence that you quoted that I'm not trying to tell peopole how to think - I just agree with that specific reasoning. How can you turn that into that I'm trying to change people's minds to how I think?
Yes you did say that but that isn't what your posts are saying, in a previous post you said:
You're right - she said "some people" as well. Unfortunately, I think it's more than necessary - I guess even one that thinks that way is bad.
You are calling people bad people because they think differently to you, I asked you to explain why you are calling them bad people but you haven't answered that.
As far as giving an opinion when it's asked for, if we all waited to be asked, no one would be able to talk at all. ;)
I'm asking you nicely to stop pointing out my opinion as something wrong - as it's no more wrong or right than anyone else's. It's an opinion, that's all. You don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you. And I would truly appreciate not being called out every time I post a different thought than you. Thanks. :)
As I have already said it isn't about your's or mine opinion, it is about how you are putting your opinion over, saying that people are bad because they don't want to neuter their dogs, they are their dogs and it is up to them whether they neuter them or not, I wouldn't neuter a male dog unless I had a very good reason to, but I am not a bad person and I object to be called one because I think differently to you. You have not been told you are a bad person because you will neuter every dog or b itch, if that happened there wouldn't be dogs, we do have to have some dogs bred from but it should be controlled, full health checks, proper conditions, etc for them.

You never answered another question I asked:
Wickedhippy, can you tell me why when neutered has been standard for at least 20 years we have more dogs than every in rescues and pounds, also the amount of dogs that are showing fear reactive problems is also very high. There wasn't these problems before neutering became standard.
I also said in my last post:
You are telling us how to think, you said that someone who is frightened of neutering their dog will change them is bad. I know now this isn't your intention but you are coming across as telling others that they think wrong and they should think the way you do, all you are doing is putting people's backs up, they then turn off and don't listen to what you are saying.
As I said I don't think that you realise just how you are coming across, it has nothing to do with how either of us think, it does have a lot to do with how we word our posts. I am often misunderstood so know how easy this is to give the wrong impression. I am not attacking how you think, I used to think that way myself, I am saying that you are not coming across very well, very different to how you are trying to come across to everyone.
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Re: neutering

Post by wickedhippy » Tue May 03, 2011 11:02 am

I believe that it's "bad" because believing a dog could lose its manliness is, in my opinion, not a reason not to have a dog neutered. I didn't say that all people felt that way, I just said that I believe it's not a good reason. (Sorry, I forgot about this question. :? )

By pointing out the "way I word" things, you are trying to change people's thinking on how I word things. I've noticed that, in this instance, you are the only one trying to make a point that I'm doing something wrong.

We can go back and forth all day regarding this - but since it has nothing to do with this topic, I don't believe it would not be in our best interest to keep focusing on who said what and how.

On the original topic, I will stand by my beliefs on nuetering - though I do agree with you that dogs should not be nuetered early. :)
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Re: neutering

Post by emmabeth » Tue May 03, 2011 4:34 pm

I think its time this thread went byebyes so we can all cool off.

Some valid points raised all round, and yes, 'i don't want to neuter my dog because then he will not be so manly' is a silly reason not to neuter. This does not mean there are no GOOD reasons not to neuter, there are, just that this particular one is not a good reason.
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