Presa Canario Episode

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nightsrainfall
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by nightsrainfall » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:36 pm

abndogos wrote: HOWEVER, for one to stick their head in the sand and say that dominance does not exist(or not allow talk of it) is also incorrect and misleading. Don;t you all think that instead of saying that all trainers that use ecollars and prongs are training wrong, that one should say that most pet owners should not use them without proper guidance, since the police dogs/KNPV/sport out there are trained with them????
I think moving away from using the word dominance is a good idea because it's a complex issue, and the word causes a lot of misunderstanding among the general public. Even here, I say Dominant and Noobs may think I'm saying something different even though I believe we have similar outlooks - it's just a complicated word that is difficult to use because of the multiple view points, definitions, and associations with it. We can say the same thing through other untainted words that don't have so much confusion around it or such a long mixed background.

Here is +R training, so talking about ecallers and prongs are not promoted. Since this is a +R board it won't be on here, ever and it will be considered wrong because it's not +R. I admit, this is a biased board, but personally I'm fine with this bias (I am also biased this way). Also not all police dogs are trained with them. The police training, KNPV, sport, can be done using +R, except it's not really treats they are using for the reward sometimes, it's the chase, hunt, bite. If you would prefer e-collars and prong, you will have to probably find another board, community, or information source for that because it won't be on here.

It's like politics, some are biased strictly on their own party, and they don't mix or agree with the other side, ever, but sometimes people watch/associate with both, lol.
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:10 pm

Eh, its no biggie Anna....I talk on several "working dog boards" that have no problems with them, so not looking for a forum to talk on. Interesting though, that I got PM'd by a couple of people on this MB who are in 100% agreement with me, so this MB is not just frequented by +R only people. I will not continue to prove my point, I've said enough to get my point across. Happy training!

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Wes
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Wes » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:47 pm

The difference is Patricia McConnell speaks of dominance in the correct definition - it's fluid, and not at all what you describe. It merely relates to how highly a dog (or human for that matter!) controls a resource.

Also - you haven't heard of Patricia McConnell? Really?

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jacksdad » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:49 pm

abndogos wrote:Anna, I pretty much agree 100% with what you have said. I truly believe most people are not going to end up with a truly dominant alpha dog, and that most problems that occur with most pet dogs is not due to dominance issues, but to lack of proper training and fear issues, HOWEVER, for one to stick their head in the sand and say that dominance does not exist(or not allow talk of it) is also incorrect and misleading. Don;t you all think that instead of saying that all trainers that use ecollars and prongs are training wrong, that one should say that most pet owners should not use them without proper guidance, since the police dogs/KNPV/sport out there are trained with them????
There is behavior that actual animal behaviorists are trying to describe with the term dominance. Their definition is NOT the one you are using. The definition you are using is the misleading and incorrect one.

as for your E collar and prongs question. i have no problem saying they are wrong and that trainers who use them are wrong. There is no justifiable reason to use them. If you actually know how to train, then why the heck do you need such a tool? That some Police use these tools is hardly a glowing endorsement. I am very aware of the culture within law enforcement and you would be surprised how little the typical LEO knows about the tools they are given to do their job. Typically they know what their agency had decided will survive a law suite and nothing more. unless of course they have a personal interest in a particular area of their job that they "geek out" on in their personal time. this is NOT a knock on the individual officers, they have a HUGE amount of stuff to try and know. Unless the individual officer is really into dogs and dog training, they are just going to accept what they are told, get through the training, get back out on the street to try and do their job without getting killed.

as for your "dig" regarding "leader of the pack" and Patricia McConnell

I have posted a link to her current thinking, did you even bother to read it?

What you posted was most likely not written by her, but rather whoever created that page to sell the book. Also, being that the book was first published in 1996 and the link I provided has her current thinking...i would say her current thinking trumps what is in the book. Which I do have by the way, and right off in the bat in the first paragraph she sets the tone and clarifies a few things that go counter to your belief of how we should treat our dogs.

While there is no way I could say the "leader of the pack" booklet truly represents her current thinking or not because I am not her nor a personal friend so that I can call and ask.... I can say that because I have read many of her books, watch a few of her DVDs, and follow her blog, her current thinking does not appear to be 100% in sync with the book at this point. which is hardly surprising because she has 15 years of growth in her knowledge, study, experience since that book was written.

I can only speak for my self in closing. I am always looking to learn something new, something that shows a better way, something that explains the previously unexplained, or clarifies what was thought to be known, or corrects previously believed facts that turned out to be false. the more I learn, the more I agree with the "camp" that says your explanation and definition of dominance is incorrect. particularly in terms of dog/human interaction. by the same token, I am starting to wonder if even the typical dog owner even really needs to worry about the correct definition? it's cool info, but is really relevant to someone with say a single dog?

For me, dominance has been an interesting geek question nothing more. As for "experiencing it" according to the first trainer I turned to for help with my dog, my dog was a VERY dominant dog that need to be taken down a notch, shown who was the boss and that a prong collar was called for. I have done none of these things, I don't worry about "dominance" who is the "leader" etc. I instead learned what was really going on with my dog and how to help him. I now get random neighbors who I have never talked to before passing me say things like " he is doing sooo much better, keep up the good work".

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by nightsrainfall » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:21 pm

jacksdad wrote:There is behavior that actual animal behaviorists are trying to describe with the term dominance. Their definition is NOT the one you are using.
Hey do you know where that work is or who is doing it? I'd be interested in hearing/reading about that. I really like ethology though it's only a side interest to me, although I tend to only actually pursue it in regards to a few animal species and then only listen in/read it if I randomly stumble upon it for all the others... :)

I really learned a lot from this thread on how people see different things and how my own views compare.
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jacksdad » Sun May 01, 2011 10:32 pm

nightsrainfall wrote:
jacksdad wrote:There is behavior that actual animal behaviorists are trying to describe with the term dominance. Their definition is NOT the one you are using.
Hey do you know where that work is or who is doing it? I'd be interested in hearing/reading about that. I really like ethology though it's only a side interest to me, although I tend to only actually pursue it in regards to a few animal species and then only listen in/read it if I randomly stumble upon it for all the others... :)

I really learned a lot from this thread on how people see different things and how my own views compare.
Start with Patricia's work. being she is a scientist, ethologist and studying this stuff. What I absolutely love about Patricia, she isn't afraid to say "I was wrong" and make a change all publicly. I also subscribe to APDT's Chronically of the Dog and picking up names and info there to read up on. I have also branched out to Jean Donaldson's work and like you looking for more sources. Probably will look at Nicole Wilde's Wolf hybrid work soon, should be interesting given the perception people have of some breeds/types being quote dominant. Given time I will try and read some some of the stuff these people reference and branch out even more.

And for completeness I am not opposed to reading up on the writings of people who believe dominance is about control. But I am going to need a source a bit more (technical/geeky/credible?) than a web sit that has (paraphrasing here) "OMG, my dog is aggressive because it jumps on me and bit's the leash, there for I followed these 10 steps to reassert my self as alpha". or people who list quote 'dominant' behaviors that are well known to be anything but.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Wicket » Mon May 02, 2011 1:39 am

Are you sure you agree with the articles you've referenced?

From the Leerburg article:
abndogos wrote:Below are some behaviors often found in dominant dogs.

• The dog will try to push through a door before you. He will knock you out of the way to get outside first.
• The dog will try to prevent you from petting him on the top of his head.
• The dog will attempt to move you out the way when sitting or laying with you.
• While playing, the dog will growl or bark at you.
• The dog will not release food or toys when you command him to do so.
• When the dog wants something that you have, such as a treat or toy, he will bark at you until you give it to him.
• The dog will jump on the furniture before you have given your permission.
• The dog will not obey basic commands such as “no”, “sit”, or “get down”.
• Instead of obeying when you give a command, the dog may try to begin to play.
• The dog will mark your personal items, such as clothing or shoes.
Your reply from "Dominance Myths" APDT article, found on page 2; you originally had these in blue, but since I don't know how to do colors, I changed it to bold.
Your dog barks at you to tell you he's in charge. Dominance? Definately not. Its a means of communication and possibly something you (inadvertantly) taught your dog to do for something. Mega twisting of words and ideas.

Your dog urinates in the house to show you that she owns the "territory" and not you Again, mega twisting of words and ideas. Intact male dogs mark, has nothing to do with it saying that he owns the terriory and you dont.

Your dog believes he is in control of the kitchen and is trying to eat before you. Seriously???? A dog NEVER comes up with these ideas on its own unless you the human ALLOW the dog to eat first, CONVEYING the message that the dog is higher ranking than you.

Dogs jump up on people to assert their height and rank over you That is usually just bad training and allowing your dog to do so. Sometimes it is actually the dog wanting to great you submissively and lick you under your chin, and the only way they can reach you is to jump up.

Dogs pull on leash so they can get out in front of you and be in charge of you and the walk. Again, a bad behavior taught that can lead into the dog thinking he is the alpha because YOU ALLOWED IT TO BECOME higher ranking than you by ALLOWING IT to walk ahead of you. THEN, when you attempt to correct this, the dog that you ALLOWED ALPHA status now takes it as YOU CHALLENGING for the alpha status back.

Dogs push you out of the way and run through a doorway ahead of you to show you they're in charge. same as above, bad training, over excitment, not to SHOW US THEYRE BOSS!

Dogs who think they are boss will ignore you when you call them because they know they don't have to obey. bad training, not dominance

Dogs mount other dogs or people to show that they are dominant. This can be a display of dominance, OR simply wanting attention, OR to instigate play.

Dogs get on the furniture and/or beds to show that they rule the household. OMG, seriously???? Again, a bad habit we teach the dogs, not something they THINK ABOUT DOING TO SHOW US THEY ARE THE BOSS!!!!LMFAO!!! When WE ALLOW them on OUR furniture(the "bosses") furniture, it CAN be misconstrued by the dog that they are our equals, and may eventually result in them thinking they are the boss. A dog that growls at you when you try to move them while they are on the couch/bed or when you touch their food while eating is actually RESOURCE GUARDING, has nothing to do with dominance.



The dog will mouth you. Even during play this is a dominant behavior.
If you look at the original article, in some cases you agree with the article here. And that's a good thing. While I don't have the police training experience that you have or worked with the breeds you've described, +R training (specifically clicker training) has been used with exotic and domesticated animals (chickens, cats, horses, dolphins, elephants, etc.). I encourage you to read "Reaching the Animal Mind" by Karen Pryor. Within the first few chapters, Karen Pryor describes clicker training with a wolf, using kibble (if memory serves me right) no less. If these high drive exotic animals can be trained with +R training, I don't use why a domesticated high drive, intelligent dog can't.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by nightsrainfall » Mon May 02, 2011 8:52 am

jacksdad wrote: Start with Patricia's work. being she is a scientist, ethologist and studying this stuff. What I absolutely love about Patricia, she isn't afraid to say "I was wrong" and make a change all publicly. I also subscribe to APDT's Chronically of the Dog and picking up names and info there to read up on. I have also branched out to Jean Donaldson's work and like you looking for more sources. Probably will look at Nicole Wilde's Wolf hybrid work soon, should be interesting given the perception people have of some breeds/types being quote dominant. Given time I will try and read some some of the stuff these people reference and branch out even more.

And for completeness I am not opposed to reading up on the writings of people who believe dominance is about control. But I am going to need a source a bit more (technical/geeky/credible?) than a web sit that has (paraphrasing here) "OMG, my dog is aggressive because it jumps on me and bit's the leash, there for I followed these 10 steps to reassert my self as alpha". or people who list quote 'dominant' behaviors that are well known to be anything but.
Thanks for the books. I have one of Patricia's book and am going to get more (my poor never ending list, lol). I like her communication style and generally agree with her. I started with Jean Donaldson actually, but didn't know about Nicole Wilde at all.

I like geeky sources!!! However I do not own that many dog books yet. I know there are books (or use to be books) that refer to the dominate one in a group (dominate female elephant, dominate male lion, dominate female meerkat, etc) as the one that's the 'leader' of the group. That stated, they may have just been using the word 'dominate' and who knows, today they could be using 'leader' or a term that means leader of that group of animals, like Matriarch for elephant leader since it's usually female which then reduces the need for using dominate. I am going to have to remember what that book I got that from though... I only remember the cover being orange which is not helpful at all! Sorry!
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Mon May 02, 2011 10:00 am

Jacksdad,
When catagorizing "all" dogs that display these behaviors as "dominant," I feel that it is an incorrect generalization, HOWEVER, someone such as Ed Frawley is dealing ONLY with dominant breed working dogs, not your typical household pet. WIthout seeing each particular dog and it's body language, I cannot say whether the above actions are truly displays of dominance or not. That is where the problem lies, is that "generalization" of those behaviors. Hence, why I posted links of body language. Again, my posting here is not for all the regular pet owners, but for people who acquire breeds such as this presa. Here is a link to a video of a Dutch Shepherd x. You tell me why this dog is doing what it is doing :wink:
http://www.youtube.com/user/joby1#p/u/18/4dEcIif5q8E

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jacksdad » Mon May 02, 2011 1:52 pm

I don't see anything that to me says "dog trying to be alpha" over these two humans or even anything that makes me think "oh a dominant dog".

I don't know how to say this without risking sounding like I am attacking you personally, not my goal/intention, but I am getting the impression you like the idea of controlling something "powerful" and "risky" and "dangerous", and that is coloring your perception of what is going on in front of you. you seem to see "challenges to authority" where I see a miscommunication or insufficient training. It makes no sense that we would intentionally breed dogs to want to challenge us all the time. in order to get the most out of our dogs logic says if that was a real trait it would have been breed out thousands of years ago. after all if we can breed the pit bulls to not turn on humans in a fight, why would we leave in a trait that creates an constant battle to get anything done. makes zero sense.

One of the reasons I want to check into Nichole's work is because of her time with wolf hybrids. If I was to go with your definition and ideas, then wolf hybrids would be the ultimate dog that you would absolutely need to be "alpha" over. BUT from the article I came across that introduced me to Nichole's work indicates doing so is a very bad idea. that following the "dominance" theories of dog training is a good way to get your self in over your head with your wolf dog.

years ago I knew someone with an alleged wolf hybrid. And this person did all the stuff I now know of as "dominance theory training" and the dog ended up being put to sleep because he became out of control. the training method was a large part of this dog's being put to sleep. the relationship was highly adversarial. anytime the dog did anything "wrong" it was punishment time. alpha rolls, being pined, leash corrections, all done under the supervision of a trainer of police dogs. Knowing what I know now, I think I could have helped or if I was over my head I know where to have gotten help.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Mon May 02, 2011 2:43 pm

I think sometimes the internet paints a wrong picture, even when someone attempts to really explain oneself. I also think that you are automatically classifying me as one that does the whole "dominant dog control by physical means." I am actually the opposite. I learned first hand years ago what an alpha roll will do to a "real" dominant dog, and its not pretty. When training my dogs, I do use mostly +R, however, I also will use +P/-R if and when necessary, but that is along the lines of what you saw with Casper on the harness. I actually will check out Patricia McConnell in the near future, but I am in the mist of packing and getting ready to move to Texas from NY(driving) in 12 days, so all my stuff is packed. You may have gotten an idiot trainer that thought your dog's fear aggression was dominance aggression, hence why you had such problems with using his methods. You have to remember it doesn;t have to be one extreme or the other, but it can also be somewhere in between.

The video clip is one of dominance, it is what these kind of dogs are bred for, their desire to dominate a human being. That is why these breeds make such great police dogs, because of that genetic trait. YOu notice that the human is totally passive, just sitting in the chair, not stairing at the dog, not talking, nothing, even petting the dog. This dog wants nothing more than to bite the sh*t outta this guy. No fear, nothing, just wanting to dominate.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Mon May 02, 2011 3:52 pm

And this person did all the stuff I now know of as "dominance theory training" and the dog ended up being put to sleep because he became out of control. the training method was a large part of this dog's being put to sleep. >>>>

I hate when anyone uses this argument. why?, its totally subjective and can be (and is)used by both sides to blame the demise of a dog on training technique.

Once again w people getting caught up on their experts definition of words. A PHD is not needed to be a good trainer. Dr. Dunbar gives a great lecture and breaks down why dogs do this and that. However, Im sure I know those who can train a dog to a higher level than him without knowing the correct "definitions" or be able to tell you the theory behind what they are doing. thats just reality.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Mon May 02, 2011 3:56 pm

“Dominance in Dog Training Debunked” or is it?

http://selfhelpdogtraining.com/wordpress/?p=124

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by DogNut » Mon May 02, 2011 6:14 pm

http://www.youtube.com/user/joby1#p/u/18/4dEcIif5q8E

This seems to be not so much dominance as very good traing, which includes a well-defined "bite and hold" while ignoring the target's attempts to placate the dog or resist the attack. Dogs such as this have been bred for a high level of intelligence, obedience, protectiveness, self-control, and independence. If this were not a trained behavior, but simply an attempt to do harm, the dog would have attacked the target's unprotected hands and face. :shock:

The argument that nobody would intentionally breed dogs that are human aggressive is only true for responsible breeders, but we know that most dogs people rescue from AC and shelters have been the result of puppy mills, BYBs, and random coupling of intact dogs running loose. Sadly, many of these dogs have been intentionally bred for the worst combination of power and fighting ability along with human aggression, in order to create an intimidating dog for drug dealers and other criminals, or just as status symbols for wannabe macho types. :roll:

Much of this discussion points out the extremist views of opposing "sides" of dog training and behavior modification, and those who hold tightly to their beliefs seem to be emotionally attached to their viewpoints and paint those with other opinions with a wide brush of intolerance and accusations of brutality or stupidity. It is a generally accepted fact that much of an animal's behavior and general disposition is determined by genetics (and this holds true for humans as well). Dogs and wolves and people have a wide range of instinctual and predetermined behavior, which is further shaped by early puppyhood and childhood. These traits determine to a large extent how the animal or human will behave and respond to various attempts at behavior modification and training with a variety of methods. Each animal is an individual and must be treated with whatever techniques get desired results without true brutality or excessive humanization and emotion. :)

These are just my ideas and opinions which are based on a lot of reading and limited experience with my own little pup. I don't want to "take sides" or promote any single training method. I personally use mostly +R with my dog and as long as it works I will stick to that. I don't try to impose my will with a heavy hand or take enjoyment from absolute obedience, and I try to be a benevolent "(pack) leader" for my dog, providing for his needs so he will not deem it necessary to take on that role. I only use aversives such as a sharp "No" or a mild tug on a harness to stop dangerous behavior. I no longer use a prong collar, although many studies (and personal experience) show that it is actually much safer than choker chains (of course), but also flat collars, martingales, and nylon slip leads. I have even used the prong collar in reverse, with the "evil" prongs facing outward, and it seems to work just about as well, having the distinctive metallic sound of the chain when a mild snap is used to get attention (or as a correction).

Wolves and hybrids range in their behavior and "tameness", and dogs also vary from very "soft" and cooperative to somewhat more wild and naturally independent and assertive (which may be termed dominance). For more information, I suggest http://www.wolf.org and http://www.wildspiritwolfsanctuary.org/. :D

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by emmabeth » Mon May 02, 2011 8:16 pm

I don't quite know where you get the impression that a/ the dog in the video wants to as you put it 'bite the sh*t out of the guy in the bite suit, or that b/the petting/stroking is enjoyable for the dog and not provoking it further.

The dog quite clearly is very very excited and eager at the chance to bite, she enjoys this work as is evidenced by her nigh on dragging the handler to the target guy. Shes clearly trained to bite the suit and only the suit, and not let go regardless of what goes on, whether its stroking, hitting (he does hit her) grabbing her face (he does that several times) pulling on her skin (he does that on top of her head) or yelling ouch.

Several of the things he does are not remotely calming and saying 'goooood girl' repeatedly isnt calming either, though it may well be rewarding the bite work.

She has plenty of opportunity to bite the sh*t otu of him, on the face and hands, or to redirect onto the guy on teh end of the leash but she doesn't do that - I would guess because she has been trained to bite certain areas of the body and is targetting those.

So where exactly is the dominance in a dog doing enthusiastically, that which shes been trained to do?
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