Presa Canario Episode

Any time new episodes of It’s Me or the Dog are airing on Animal Planet in the US, Victoria will answer questions about that episode later that week. Post your questions to Victoria about the most recent episode here anytime.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Noobs » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:36 am

I can't believe we're back here with the idea that dogs who rush doorways are dominant. Dogs who rush doorways are RUDE and haven't been taught manners.

jiml
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:11 am

I can't believe we're back here with the idea that dogs who rush doorways are dominant. Dogs who rush doorways are RUDE and haven't been taught manners.>>>>

i actually agree at least to a degree. however - i think sometimes arguing over definitions of words can be counter productive/politically correct. If a dog rushes a door and you want it to stop because you think its dominance (going outside can be considered a "want/need" for the dog so therefore a resource) or because its plain rude and you also want to practice NILF so the dog earns what it wants. If sim methods are used to achieve results - who cares what someone calls it. A dog trainer does not need to have an doctorate in language to be good.


The principle of dog training is inherently simple reinforce desired behavior and prevent or remove reward for undesired behavior. I myself do believe that implementation of the second part varies depending on dog/circumstances and have zero prob w a more positive method being the default. I do believe other methods can be effective and nec in certain circumstances. which is why I was asking victoria on her beliefs.

I think some key words like "dominance" cause the visions of the yank and crank, alpha rolling bully. but that may not be how any individual trains regardless of "words" used. In fact that trainer is all but dead - even that other tv personality is starting to move in the other direction.

User avatar
nightsrainfall
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:08 pm
Location: USA

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by nightsrainfall » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:13 am

abndogos wrote:LOL, incorrect definition according to who?
Invalid. It can be correct at times, but other times the situation makes it invalid (for the moment, or completely). I.E. Your dogs, they are dominate with other people, but not to you. They are not by definition always dominate because they listen to you.

There dogs who do become dominate over humans, they attribute the characteristics you mentioned from those articles, and we do not always know how to respond such that we are the dominate one ("alpha" if you will, "pack leader", the one who has some control). Dog's don't think, "Oh you are lower than me, thus I reign over you." - at least I don't think so that is. (Some people sadly do). Dogs are more I want this and you aren't going to stop me, from my experience. If we try to stop them and fail, well... we weren't the ones "1.Exercising the most influence or control."

I realize my thinking is different, but I blame being an engineer. I like words to mean what they mean as literally as possible. Calling a dog Dominate without a situation in which it is "1.Exercising the most influence or control.", "forcefully getting its way, (and actually getting its way).", Etc. It's like the dominate gene thing. The dominate gene is the one expressed, the recessive is not. If you are with a dog, and the dog is the one pretty much leading, controlling, the walk, without any of the human's wants being expressed, the dog would be dominate in that situation. However, if the dog is walking, and the human's wants are more expressed, the human is dominate. (The moment a dominate gene doesn't express, it's recessive, and for genes, there are those who are dominate for one pair and recessive for another. Hmmm, anyone know why we use recessive for genes but submissive for organisms? I never noticed that before...)

I'm trying to say that to me, dominance is situational. I do agree some dogs though do have the personalities for easily becoming 'dominate' in a good number of situations if we don't know how to work with them. And I really do think it's important to recognize this so that you don't set it up such that they will begin to dominate the situations...Although, even if I do know how to work with them, there are a good number that still outsmart me and get what they want vs I want. :-)

So I hear what you are saying, I'm just trying to show you how I think, and maybe express things in a different light. :-D
- Anna

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole."
~ Roger A. Caras

User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Noobs » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:24 am

The word dominance has a lot of baggage to be sure. But if we stay with the door rusher for example and remove the word dominance from the equation and instead stick with the idea that the dog needs to be taught manners and self-control rather than to be taught its place, then the situation becomes less adversarial. This is what the average dog owner needs in my non-trainer opinion.

Meanwhile I spent quite a bit of time practicing NILIF myself and I dumped it because it made me feel like a drill sargeant rather than my dog's provider. Rather than making my dog sit for his meal to earn it, I asked him to wait patiently and not rush the bowl. Think about it. It's the same thing, but the thinking behind the latter is less adversarial.

Whatever works for you. But I personally will stick to the "benevolent leader" side and when my friends ask me for advice that's the kind I will give them. They're not paying me as a trainer, but his fear issues aside, with my dog as an example they know they can come to me and ask how I got him to be so well-mannered.

abndogos
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:26 am

I agree the door rushing is not the best example and truly is more likely than not, just a dog that hasn't been taught manners, but that thought also comes under the auspice that the "alpha" leads first....however, I do agree with the majority of dogs are not trying "to take control," it is bad training, EXCEPT where a dog IS genetically predisposed to be "dominant"(bred for a particular job that requires it). There was a great show on Nat Geo, "The Science of Dogs," that goes into how certain traits were bred into certain breeds for their jobs...here is a clip with actually my friends and their Dogo Argentinos....if you can find the whole show, it is worth watching .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zHkg5Aakqg
With dogs, you can only train them as far as their "genetic potential" will take them....that is why you mainly see GSDs,Mals, and DS as police dogs and are usually the top dogs in Sportwork. You may get a genetic "freak" throwback in other off breeds that you see participating in sportwork, but they are not the norm.

LIke I said earlier, I came on it because of the Presa episode(this guy lives all of a half an hour from me), and knowning there are going to be more and more people that get a hold of breeds such as this that are going to also need help.

I have been training,showing, and handling dogs for about 30 years now, and now a few years of doing PP work. I started off with the "alpha roll" and "crank and yank" methods, since that is what was taught back then. We had GSP's growing up, then I had trained some Rotts, a GSD, and a dalmation this way also many years ago. Upon acquiring Dogo Argentinos 8 years ago, I also used those methods and then found out first hand that using these methods on a truly dominant breed that is also soft with their owners is not the best. Took a few years to figure that out after making my current male not trust me and insecure. Thats where I sought out Mike, the one you see on this episode,and learned better ways to "be in control" without being physical about it.... Luckily,though, my AB that I had trained in those old methods did not have any ill effects(b/c she was not an "alpha" but she surely was "assertive.") Best dog I ever ownered/trained....hunted wild hogs in Texas with her, did bitework, did OB, and even was a Certified Therapy Dog that I took to Nursing Homes. SHe passed away last year at the old age of 13.

User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Noobs » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:37 am

I watched the episode in its entirety a while back. I remember the segment on the DAs but if I recall correctly there was no mention on how the dogs were trained.

It is true, you have to train the dog in front of you and work with its inbred traits. That is why when people come on this board asking for advice, the dogs' breeds are taken into account and the advice given is tailored to that. For example, an ill-mannered Lab should be given plenty of exercise including opportunities to "hunt" by scent tracking etc. But we still don't talk dominance here. And I get it, a Lab isn't a Dogo, isn't a Malamute, isn't a terrier. That was just a random example.

abndogos
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:11 am

Here are links to 2 books I highly recommend that are older and well known and the basis for a lot of working dog trainers(started with the Seeing Eye Dogs):

Scott and Fuller's, "Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog."
http://www.workingdogs.com/people/books ... e_Dog.html


Clarence Pfaffenberger, "The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior."
http://www.workingdogs.com/store/item-1929242042.htm


edit to add some links to great articles:

Understanding your Dog: Dog Behavior
http://www.vonfalconer.com/articles/3/article/9

Understanding Body Language
http://www.vonfalconer.com/articles/3/article/10

User avatar
nightsrainfall
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:08 pm
Location: USA

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by nightsrainfall » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:17 pm

Thanks for the book references. I'll add them to the list of books I have regarding dogs. (My book wish list for dogs, is larger than my normal book wish list, lol!)
- Anna

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole."
~ Roger A. Caras

jacksdad
Posts: 4879
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jacksdad » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:05 pm

abndogos wrote:LOL, incorrect definition according to who?
Patrica McConnell has a PhD in Ethology (Ethology is the scientific study of animal behavior), I am a lot more confident in her definition than the sources you provide.
abndogos wrote:Taming the Dominant Dog

by Robin Kovary
.....
Will The Real ALPHA Please Stand Up!

The term Alpha refers to the leader of any given pack (family or group). Dogs which fancy themselves as the Alpha are generally pushy, manipulative, demanding and dominant. They like to call the shots in any relationship, and expect others to follow their lead. If your dog acts like the dominant member of your pack, you'd be wise to begin taking steps to turn your relationship around. [NOTE: This is NOT meant to suggest that one should treat their dog harshly to accomplish this result!
I pretty much stopped reading right there, but did skim a bit more. manipulative??? I am seeing more human traits here then dog traits and the kind of traits that we humans frown on in leadership. these are things that get a "leader" ousted from their position. These are things that do not attract followers. frankly they describe the boss we all hope never to get.
Below are some behaviors often found in dominant dogs.

• The dog will try to push through a door before you. He will knock you out of the way to get outside first.
• The dog will try to prevent you from petting him on the top of his head.
• The dog will attempt to move you out the way when sitting or laying with you.
• While playing, the dog will growl or bark at you.
• The dog will not release food or toys when you command him to do so.
• When the dog wants something that you have, such as a treat or toy, he will bark at you until you give it to him.
• The dog will jump on the furniture before you have given your permission.
• The dog will not obey basic commands such as “no”, “sit”, or “get down”.
• Instead of obeying when you give a command, the dog may try to begin to play.
• The dog will mark your personal items, such as clothing or shoes.
• The dog will mouth you. Even during play this is a dominant behavior.
IF dominance is about being in charge, and to be in charge you are the alpha and to be alpha you need to be highly confident..... I am not seeing anything in this list that makes me think "alpha". I see traits of a spoiled dog, I see traits of a insecure dog, I see traits of either a untrained or poorly trained dog. I see dominance once again being used as a catch all, broad brush explanation for what we do not understand or know.

I also looked at the http://shibashake.com site. quickly stopped reading there too as it was full of inaccurate information and very poor advice.

I will NOT try and argue that there isn't something in dog behavior that the term "dominance" is trying to describe. I think Patricia does a very good job explaining it. I will however argue that MOST people are using the WRONG definition and because of that misinterpreting their dog. They are seeing "challenges" where there isn't. They are seeing aggression, where there isn't.

To me, the sad irony is that the definition of dominance you claim is the correct one actually does NOT describe a true "alpha" dog. That many of the "issues" people who buy into this definition attribute as "leadership/dominant/alpha" traits and that must be "squashed" in order to have a "good dog", are NOT leadership traits at all.

I also find it sad that people are so quick and willing to embrace and create such an adversarial relationship with their dog.

People need to spend little more time learning dogs and how to train them, and a lot less time worrying about "who is in charge".

abndogos
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:51 pm

I also find it sad when people parrot other people's thoughts and ideas without actually having experienced what is being discussed.

PS, I was just finding whatever I could to be like you and copy and paste stuff as examples for the he!! of it. The stuff that I recommend to learn behavioral stuff from is the above books by Scott and Fuller and by Pfaffenberger, who contributed a he!! of a lot more to understanding dog behavior and genetics than this lady with her PhD that I never heard of.

abndogos
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:02 pm

You are welcome Anna. I have a ton more, but all my books are packed away for our move in 2 weeks(buying a new house in Texas). There was another one mainly for breeding a better GSD, can't remember it though. we'll have to compare at some point :wink:

User avatar
nightsrainfall
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:08 pm
Location: USA

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by nightsrainfall » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:28 pm

jacksdad wrote:People need to spend little more time learning dogs and how to train them, and a lot less time worrying about "who is in charge".
Very well said. I agree with this very much. :-)
abndogos wrote:I also find it sad when people parrot other people's thoughts and ideas without actually having experienced what is being discussed.
Generally when people are discussing different ideas and sides, and usually when two people have different ideas, both have different background, experiences, and generally the case is neither side has quite experienced the other the way the other has. You also have quoted a fair amount of sources word-for-word, thus your own statement may work for yourself too. Experience in science doesn't actually occur always, heck sometimes we make computer models for our experience vs real life events. Science is also allowed to cite outside sources - most science takes one experience (of a one breed of dog) and compares it to other sources without even working with them themselves. Read the introduction and discussion sections of most scientific articles, and in dissertations of theories, people will bring up counter points without actual experience based on previously based work of someone else (it's intimating for the poor grad student, but occurs), these are acceptable and used practices
abnodogos wrote: We we'll have to compare at some point.
I'm currently in the process if buying a three volume set on dog training by Steven R. Lindsay that's extremely massive to put it lightly. I think that set might take me a while to get through... I finally got around to reading "When Pigs Fly. Training Success with Impossible Dogs" by Jane Killion, and then I have many of the books by the authors mentioned (Patrica McConnell) in previous posts by other people on my list as well.



For everyone - I think most likely this topic is going to be an "Agree to disagree" over all. I don't see anyone giving up their views on the definitions at this time, which just means we have a good healthy checking and testing system that will occur among us. I personally still love literal definitions and I know it could take me a year to change on that if I'm being stubborn on it. :-)
- Anna

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole."
~ Roger A. Caras

abndogos
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:32 pm

another link for you....Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test....part of test tests level of social dominance

http://workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm

The Volhards


Jack and Wendy Volhard are consummate dog people, internationally recognized for their contributions to training, health, and nutrition. In print, in films, and in the field, they have helped thousands of people to better enjoy the experience of dog ownership and thousands of dogs to live better lives.

For the past 30 years the Volhards have taught dog owners how to communicate effectively with their pets. At the heart of their teaching is the "Motivational Method," a unique approach to training that is aimed at people who have dogs first and foremost as pets and companions. The Volhards believe that positive reinforcement is the most effective tool for teaching any dog – a technique that is fundamental to their renowned training camps, workshops, and one-on-one training sessions. yet they still speak of dominance despite being +R and motivational trainers


They have written 13 books, including the popular Dog Training For Dummies (Wiley Publications - 2001, 2nd edition - 2005 & 3rd edition - 2010), over 200 articles, and produced four training videos plus a DVD, Living with your Dog: Basic Training 1 & 2. Two of their books were awarded the prestigious “Best Care and Training Book” award by the Dog Writers’ Association of America (DWAA). Their film "Puppy Aptitude Testing" was named Best Film on Dogs for 1981 by the DWAA - the Oscar of the dog world. Between them, they have seven awards from the DWAA.


Volhard books have been translated into ten languages.


In the foreword to the Complete Idiot’s Guide to a Well-Trained Dog The Monks of New Skete wrote that:

"Good dog trainers and teachers are always creative and will adapt their own specific approaches to particular dogs and situations based on their experience and knowledge. Therefore, different trainers will, at times, use different techniques. Rather than one rigid method of training, then, what we need are well-defined, proven techniques based on the principles of how dogs actually learn. There is no question that Jack and Wendy Volhard successfully present just such practical guidance, and we at New Skete have learned much from them over the years." (Alpha Books, 1999).

The Volhards are accomplished trainers and have obtained over 50 conformation and performance titles, multiple High in Trials and Dog World Awards of Canine Distinction with their German Shepherd, Labrador Retriever, Landseer Newfoundlands, Standard Wirehaired Dachshunds and a Yorkshire Terrier. Six of their own Landseers have earned at least one Highest Scoring Dog in Trial in American Kennel Club obedience competitions. Read the story about one of them!


They are true practitioners in every sense of the word.

Jack began teaching obedience classes in 1968, and started to give seminars in 1974, which have taken him to almost every State in the Union. The Volhards' first dog training camp was held in 1977, and since then dog enthusiasts from across the US, Australia, Bermuda, Canada, England, Germany, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Puerto Rico, Singapore, Turkey and the West Indies have attended these camps. Jack has also conducted camps in Bermuda, Canada, England and Puerto Rico.

Jack is the senior author of Teaching Dog Obedience Classes: The Manual for Instructors (Howell Book House, 1986), considered the “bible” for instructors because it teaches how to teach. Together with Melissa Bartlett, he authored the best-selling training primer What All Good Dogs Should Know: The Sensible Way to Train (Howell Book House, 1991, and 2nd Edition 2008).

After 33 years of judging American Kennel Club obedience trials, Jack turned in his clipboard and retired as an Obedience Judge Emeritus in 2006.


Wendy’s talents were best summed up by James Dearinger, former Director of Obedience for the American Kennel Club, in his Foreword to the Canine Good Citizen: Every Dog Can Be One (Howell Book House, 1994, 2nd Edition 1997):

"Wendy has few equals when it comes to understanding canine behavior. She has a remarkable ability to sense the needs of a particular dog and what is best for the animal. A talent, for sure, but one she has honed to a fine point by studious research into all phases of dogs -- behavior, health, nutrition, structure and training."

Wendy is internationally recognized as one of the leading authorities on health and nutrition for dogs, and is the senior author of The Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog (Howell Book House, 1996 & 2nd Edition 2000). In 1973, she formulated the Natural Diet for a Healthy Dog, a nutritionally complete diet to maintain peak health, long life, beauty and performance; in 1999 she produced the diet in dehydrated form. More recently she has introduced the ultimate in dog diets, NDF2, which is now available in the U.S. and Canada.

In addition to her contributions in the field of nutrition, she developed the most widely used method for evaluating puppies for the right home and the right purpose. Her film Puppy Aptitude Testing was named best film for 1981 by the Dog Writers Association. She also developed a Canine Personality Profile to help dog owners understand why their canine charges do what they do, and her article Drives - A New Look at an Old Concept was named Best Article in a Specialty Magazine for 1991. She was a regular contributor to the American Kennel Club Gazette for more than 10 years.

Wendy conducts seminars on health and behavior in the US, Canada and Europe. She has lectured at annual conventions of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT), the International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP) Groom Expos and the United Kingdom Registry of Behaviour Consultants.

In 2006, Jack & Wendy were inducted into International Association of Canine Professionals Hall of Fame.

Wendy and Jack currently share their home with two Labrador Retrievers, two Standard Wirehaired Dachshunds and two rescued Maine Coon cats.


http://www.volhard.com/index.php

abndogos
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:04 pm

Anna, I pretty much agree 100% with what you have said. I truly believe most people are not going to end up with a truly dominant alpha dog, and that most problems that occur with most pet dogs is not due to dominance issues, but to lack of proper training and fear issues, HOWEVER, for one to stick their head in the sand and say that dominance does not exist(or not allow talk of it) is also incorrect and misleading. Don;t you all think that instead of saying that all trainers that use ecollars and prongs are training wrong, that one should say that most pet owners should not use them without proper guidance, since the police dogs/KNPV/sport out there are trained with them????

abndogos
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:20 pm

Oh wow, found this one from your Patricia McConnell lady and one of her books....

HOW TO BE THE LEADER OF THE PACK - AND HAVE YOUR DOG LOVE YOU FOR IT!
by Patricia McConnell (See other books by author)

Publisher: Distributed by Dogwise Publishing
Edition: 2007 Paperback, 16 pages

ISBN: 9781891767029
Item: DTB479
Ships the next business day.

Summary: Learn how to love your dogs without spoiling them and provide boundaries without intimidation. This booklet clarifies how to be a benevolent leader and avoid aggression related to fear or dominance.


Expanded Description:

Learn how to love your dogs without spoiling them and provide boundaries without intimidation. This booklet clarifies how to be a benevolent leader and avoid aggression related to fear or dominance. If you want to be a natural leader to your pack, this book tells you how to do it in a peaceful, kind way. The ideas and exercises in this booklet are based on the way dogs communicate with each other, so they are highly effective and easy for your dog to understand. An essential part of any canine library! Would make an excellent hand-out in classes, for vet offices, or humane societies!
Price: $4.95

So even she speaks of dominance, LOL.

Locked