Presa Canario Episode

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Wicket
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Wicket » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:10 pm

abndogos wrote:Sorry, I guess my interpretaion is different than yours of a time out....
Negative Reinforcement strengthens a behavior because a negative condition is stopped or avoided as a consequence of the behavior. Punishment, on the other hand, weakens a behavior because a negative condition is introduced or experienced as a consequence of the behavior.
Got it! :)
Say you have visitors that come over and your dog is dying to say hi to them and jumps up on them and is a pain in the butt....you put the dog in a time out(sit stay or down stay) and do not allow it to interact with the people everytime it jumps up to say hi. No attention = negative condition until dog calms down:dog calms down,negative condition(no attention) stops. In some instances, though, a time out may reinforce the behavior you are trying to stop(like you said, depends on the dog's perception. Good example is a dog growling at another dog or person(dog is uncomfortable, hence why it is growling). If you remove the dog from that situtation and do your kind of a time out, you could be actually reinforcing the growling cause you are removing the dog from its stressor(whatever is causing it to growl), therefore, you are teaching it when it is uncomforatble and it growls,you will remove it from the situation it doesnt like in the first place.

In your example, the sit/stay would be an incompatible behavior (it's hard to jump up when you're focused on keeping all four paws on the floor), not a time out. Time out is simply removing the dog or you for 10 seconds.

Around here, we don't view growling as a negative; it's just another form of communication and should be listened to lest the dog go to more extreme means (biting) as a way of getting the I'm-uncomfortable-now! message out. Read here. In that situation, it might be recommended to slowly expose the dog to whatever it makes him uncomfortable until he no longer associates the stressor as a stressor but as a positive via counter conditioning and desensitization. If he's bound to fail and feel uncomfortable, then the dog won't be exposed to the visitors temporarily until he's finished the training. Forumers Noobs and Ladybug had similar troubles.
When one advertises to the general public that they are a "Positive Reinforcement Trainer" that is what the general public only sees....they don't understand dog training, let alone Skinner's Psychology. They think that this trainer is +R ONLY, cause that is what is in thier face, so to speak. Plus,when a +R trainer goes on to say that all ecollar training and prong collars are bad, it sets up for people to be "prejudice" against trainers that use them, without actually knowing the concept behind training with those tools.
If the general public doesn't understand Skinner, then why would they think that +R trainers are +R ALONE if they don't understand what the concept is? In fact, many +R trainers, such as Karen Pryor and Pat Miller, are "cross-over" trainers, meaning they've been schooled the older methods and "crossed over" to better ways.
I have this argument a lot with +R trainers, telling me I "electrocute" my dog or "stab" my dog.
Since you're using an e-collar, they are electrodes involved. Similarly, the prongs are supposed to pinch. In order to be categorized as -R, there must be some unpleasantness involved. (See your definition above)
So,to answer your question, no, when those tools are used correctly(ie proper situation, etc), no, they will not cause harm, either physically or mentally,to the dog.
Even on a "soft" dog?
What kind of dogs do I think +R trainers usually deal with? Definately not a dog like this Presa, no offense. Nor like my Dogo Argentino, or Cane Corso's, Central Asian Ovcharkas, Caucasian Ovcharkas, Boerboels, Filas, Sarplaninacs, tc. All these breeds need their owners to be pack leaders, and the +R trainers that are saying the "dominace" theory is all wrong is setting up these dogs for failure.

Do you know why +R trainer say it is "wrong"? There a lot breeds trained in this forum. Nettle owns lurchers and terriers that she's trained to work, be hunters for her. Noobs has a Pit Bull/Lab mix. Jacksdad has a JRT mix, another working breed. Emmabeth owns variety of lurchers, sight hounds, and one terrier. Wvdip owns an Akita.
Now, I am not saying to "muscle" these types of breeds around and to "alpha roll" these dogs to be your dog's alpha, BUT, there are many other ways to "dominate" your dog without physically doing it, its all by actions and attitude. I could see right away with Eric that he was letting Casper call the shots, and that he had not "proven" himself as alpha.
My interpretation was that Casper wasn't getting his needs met (exercise, training, owner time) and was thus, insecure. Furthermore, Eric wasn't sending clear signals about what he wanted to do, causing confusion between them. Casper needed to be properly trained hence Victoria's emphasis on entering the program and getting Casper neutered to do so. Insecurity can spawn from more than one cause or may have multiple causes. To say that Casper was "dominant" is just too simple of an explanation for me.
With breeds such as the above mentioned, if you do not promote yourself as the pack leader, your dog can become very insecure, I could see that Casper was insecure by his body language in this show, and being that he felt Eric was not in control, Casper felt that he had to be. Also, with these breeds, if you don't have outlets for their natural drives(what they were bred to do originally), they can also become very insecure and even aggressive.
I agree that Casper was out of control, but not because he was trying to assert pack leader status but rather he didn't know what to do, didn't have the tools to cope. Read here about dominance myths.

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Mattie
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Mattie » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:41 am

jiml wrote:Im sorry for posting that. :( I now edited out that part.

However A no pull harness works precisely because it is uncomfortable to pull against. That does not mean they are uncomfortable to put on. The fact that your dog is happy to put on any restraining device is irrelevant. They have been classically conditioned to like the product because good things happen when its put on.
Many dogs will allow a harness to be put on if they have been taught that they are comfortable when they are on, but if they learn that they become uncomfortable like the no pull harnesses they will work out that by not pulling they are not uncomfortable, does that make sense.

I do have a dog that doesn't like a harness on, she objects when I go to put it on, this is a a fleece lined harness that is comfortable to wear, her object is because I have more control over her when she has the harness on, she can't get up to as much mischief as she can with just a collar. :lol: I can assure you that she hasn't been classically conditioned to thing good things happen when she has it on. She is an independent, confident little madam who demands her own way all the time. :lol:
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Mattie
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Mattie » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:32 am

abndogos wrote:Mike says it all right here,"More often than not though most +R trainers do use +P/-R. They either don't realize it or just don't admit it.:
I think that is insulting especially as you or Mike knows most trainers so don't know what they think. When dealing with owners who are trying to train their dogs the trainer has to have really good people skills as well as knowledge about training dogs. They have to work with the owner, with what their knowledge is and help the progress, blinding them with things like that just confuses the owners.
NONE, of MIke's training methods are harsh on the dogs WHATSOEVER, despite the use of prong and ecollars.....you see, it is a tool like any other, and there is a right way and a wrong way to use them. Mike uses them correctly. Any of the dogs that are trained by Mike LOVE him....so if he was causing them stress or pain, they would not like him, they would not get all excited and kiss and lick him, they would tuck tail and shy away. I,for one, would not have been using Mike now for over 2 years if he was cruel to dogs.
Dogs that have been abuses often do show what we call "Love" to their owner/trainer, so to say that they wouldn't "Love" someone if they are abused isn't true. Do dogs feel "Love" as we know it? We hold all the resources that dogs can't live without.

You are right, that are tools but tools that can do a lot of damage if not used properly. I went into both prong and e collars to find out how they worked, then walked away from them, for a dog to feel the e collar it may not be classed as hurting them but for them to react they have to feel it, same with the prong collar. I have seen both abused, seen the dogs reactions, and yes, they did hurt the dogs. In the case of one dog that was abused with the e collar, that dog turned from a nervous, mixed up dog into a dog that would attack anything that moved and even seriously injured one of our army senior trainers, if someone hadn't shot the dog it would have killed him.

We constantly tell owners on here that headcollars, flat collars etc can all damage dogs if not used properly, we are very keen on safety for the owner and the dogs. Gadgets like prong collars and e collars are not gadgets to be used without being taught how to use them first, they are sold with instructions but how many people read instructions?
I am the one who brought up the modified Kohler method on facebook . I noticed it right away when I watched the show and decided to ask Mike about it, since I new Kohler was not a +R only trainer. I was curious as to where Victoria had learned that, and wondered if she even realized that method is actually +P(the dog correcting itself on the harness) and -R(turning around and walking the other way and not speaking to the dog).
Only Victoria can say why, I don't see any point in speculating.
You actually don't say a word to the dog except "heel" ONE TIME when you first step off on your left foot. THis method teaches your dog to pay attention to you and stay next to you at all times in order to avoid the self correction.
I think that is so sad and is not why I want my dogs, I want to interact with my dogs like most dog owners, I love to talk to them, teach them new things, and generally interact with them. Why should I set off with my left food when I am just going for a walk? That isn't what I have my dogs for, I want to enjoy my walks and not walk to a set way that someone thinks I should do.

I am just an ordinary dog owner, I am not interested in MAKING my dogs do things, I am not interested in do things the same way every time, I am not interested in having my dogs at my heel all the time, I am interested in playing and having fun with my dogs, teaching those that have been abused to live a decent life, bringing a dog back from being starved into a normal dog, teaching a dog that she doesn't have to fear everyone she sees and there is more to life than what they have experienced.

My dogs are my friends, I interact with them like I do with friends and companions, I live with them as my companions, they are my family and as family members, they are treated as such.
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abndogos
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:30 pm

Even on a "soft" dog?
Yep. I guess the best way to describe and compare the way we use an ecollar and a prong collar would be the equivalent of continuously softly tapping someone on the shoulder that is doing something else that you would like to get their attention, and when they finally pay attention to you, you stop the tapping. Not that "crank and yank" you see often with prong collars, or "zapping" the dog with one high burst.

In Eric's case, no, the dog was not trying to assert dominance at all over him at all, however, I did notice at first with the camera people and Victoria there, he walked very stiff legged and had his tail up high, unsure, and waiting for a possible challege by the newcomers. Casper was unsure becasue Eric had not asserted himself as pack leader. Dogs are pack animals and need a leader(us) and if we aren't "secure" enough, then our dogs become unsure and will step up to the plate to take control. I will have to say whoever came up with that "dominance myths" stuff surely never owned a dog like the breeds I mentioned, LOL.
Nettle owns lurchers and terriers that she's trained to work, be hunters for her. Noobs has a Pit Bull/Lab mix. Jacksdad has a JRT mix, another working breed. Emmabeth owns variety of lurchers, sight hounds, and one terrier. Wvdip owns an Akita.
Please don;t take offense, but none of the breeds you have mentioned even remotely compare to the breeds I have mentioned. I should also add in 2 other breeds, the Dutch Shepherd and Belgium Malinois. These 2 particular breeds are bred specifically for their "human dominance/aggression." That is why they are so prevalant in police work/KNPV. Their drives have not been bred out of them....I can most likely bet the dogs you mentioned are not from working lines, but pet lines, where the original drives and purposes of the breeds have been watered down by all the show/pet/puppy millers.

Mattie, people that want dogs as just "pets" really need to stick to the breeds that were purposefully bred to be companions and not get a "working" breed just because they like the way it looks. When people get breeds that have real purposes for work and try to make them pets, this is where they have the problems. They don't understand the drives and the needs of the dog, therefore,the dog gets screwed up in the head when it was bred(for example) to catch and hold a wild boar and fight it until the hunter gets there....this now "pet" WANTS to fight something,ANYTHING, to "satisfy" these drives, and it can take it out on you, your other dog, your cat, your neighbor's dog, a deer, etc....ALso going back to Eric and Casper....that poor think was locked up for hours at a time and barely even walked, yet alone given an outlet for its catchdog/fighting/protector purposes. Breeds like these need a JOB and don;t belong in pet homes, period.

Wicket
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Wicket » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:33 am

abndogos wrote: Yep. I guess the best way to describe and compare the way we use an ecollar and a prong collar would be the equivalent of continuously softly tapping someone on the shoulder that is doing something else that you would like to get their attention, and when they finally pay attention to you, you stop the tapping. Not that "crank and yank" you see often with prong collars, or "zapping" the dog with one high burst.
Then why do you characterize it as a "negative condition"?
In Eric's case, no, the dog was not trying to assert dominance at all over him at all, however, I did notice at first with the camera people and Victoria there, he walked very stiff legged and had his tail up high, unsure, and waiting for a possible challege by the newcomers. Casper was unsure becasue Eric had not asserted himself as pack leader.
For the record, was Casper trying to "assert dominance" over Eric or not or just the newcomers? In the two sentences, you've said he wasn't and then said he was...
Dogs are pack animals and need a leader(us) and if we aren't "secure" enough, then our dogs become unsure and will step up to the plate to take control.
Dogs don't want to be pack leaders but are simultaneously asserting themselves as pack leaders by pulling, being on the couch, etc. Pack leaders are confident but dogs that assert themselves as pack leaders are unsure, not confident. That doesn't seem contradictory to you?
I will have to say whoever came up with that "dominance myths" stuff surely never owned a dog like the breeds I mentioned, LOL.
You are privy that information how? Nicole Wilde, a R+ trainer that blogs on Dog Star Daily and at this site, specializes in wolves and wolf dogs.
Please don;t take offense, but none of the breeds you have mentioned even remotely compare to the breeds I have mentioned. I should also add in 2 other breeds, the Dutch Shepherd and Belgium Malinois. These 2 particular breeds are bred specifically for their "human dominance/aggression." That is why they are so prevalant in police work/KNPV.
Can you explain to me why these breeds are more "dominant" than other breeds? I'm trying to understand.
Their drives have not been bred out of them...
Every dog has instinctual drift.
I can most likely bet the dogs you mentioned are not from working lines, but pet lines, where the original drives and purposes of the breeds have been watered down by all the show/pet/puppy millers.
You been here for 5 days, posted 4 times, and now you know "the regulars"' dogs history?
Mattie, people that want dogs as just "pets" really need to stick to the breeds that were purposefully bred to be companions and not get a "working" breed just because they like the way it looks. When people get breeds that have real purposes for work and try to make them pets, this is where they have the problems. They don't understand the drives and the needs of the dog, therefore,the dog gets screwed up in the head when it was bred(for example) to catch and hold a wild boar and fight it until the hunter gets there....this now "pet" WANTS to fight something,ANYTHING, to "satisfy" these drives, and it can take it out on you, your other dog, your cat, your neighbor's dog, a deer, etc....
I don't see how drives has to do with asserting social status...???
ALso going back to Eric and Casper....that poor think was locked up for hours at a time and barely even walked, yet alone given an outlet for its catchdog/fighting/protector purposes. Breeds like these need a JOB and don;t belong in pet homes, period.
I think it's more likely that Casper's insecurity was not having his needs met, not dominance.

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Mattie
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Mattie » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:11 am

abndogos wrote:
Even on a "soft" dog?

Yep. I guess the best way to describe and compare the way we use an ecollar and a prong collar would be the equivalent of continuously softly tapping someone on the shoulder that is doing something else that you would like to get their attention, and when they finally pay attention to you, you stop the tapping. Not that "crank and yank" you see often with prong collars, or "zapping" the dog with one high burst.
If I was busy and involved with something and someone continued to tap me on the shoulder I would get really annoyed, if they didn't stop I would eventually turn on them and tell them what I thought of their bad manners.
In Eric's case, no, the dog was not trying to assert dominance at all over him at all, however, I did notice at first with the camera people and Victoria there, he walked very stiff legged and had his tail up high, unsure, and waiting for a possible challege by the newcomers. Casper was unsure becasue Eric had not asserted himself as pack leader. Dogs are pack animals and need a leader(us) and if we aren't "secure" enough, then our dogs become unsure and will step up to the plate to take control. I will have to say whoever came up with that "dominance myths" stuff surely never owned a dog like the breeds I mentioned, LOL.
It may be worth you reading http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/ ... nglish.pdf it was written by David Mech1, the man who started the dominance theory. He has also done this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU There is also http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ ... tement.pdf
Nettle owns lurchers and terriers that she's trained to work, be hunters for her. Noobs has a Pit Bull/Lab mix. Jacksdad has a JRT mix, another working breed. Emmabeth owns variety of lurchers, sight hounds, and one terrier. Wvdip owns an Akita.
Please don;t take offense, but none of the breeds you have mentioned even remotely compare to the breeds I have mentioned. I should also add in 2 other breeds, the Dutch Shepherd and Belgium Malinois. These 2 particular breeds are bred specifically for their "human dominance/aggression." That is why they are so prevalant in police work/KNPV. Their drives have not been bred out of them....I can most likely bet the dogs you mentioned are not from working lines, but pet lines, where the original drives and purposes of the breeds have been watered down by all the show/pet/puppy millers.
I have a Belgian Malinois cross, she is the biggest wimp of a dog I have ever had, she is so thick that it takes her a lot longer than any other dog I have had to get information into her brain, she is terrified of her own shadow and especially men. She came to me direct from a pound when she was 20 weeks old, I may not be a trainer but I am an experienced owner who only takes dogs on with problems, she is obedient and has always had a good recall.
Mattie, people that want dogs as just "pets" really need to stick to the breeds that were purposefully bred to be companions and not get a "working" breed just because they like the way it looks. When people get breeds that have real purposes for work and try to make them pets, this is where they have the problems. They don't understand the drives and the needs of the dog, therefore,the dog gets screwed up in the head when it was bred(for example) to catch and hold a wild boar and fight it until the hunter gets there....this now "pet" WANTS to fight something,ANYTHING, to "satisfy" these drives, and it can take it out on you, your other dog, your cat, your neighbor's dog, a deer, etc....ALso going back to Eric and Casper....that poor think was locked up for hours at a time and barely even walked, yet alone given an outlet for its catchdog/fighting/protector purposes. Breeds like these need a JOB and don;t belong in pet homes, period.
So you think I should only get a breed of dog bred to be a companion, if I did that quite a lot of dogs would never have had the chance to be dogs, they would have been pts instead of coming to me. I do agree that there are a lot of owners who don't have a clue, cause the problems for others to sort but not all people who want a pet dog are like that.

Bertie was on his last chance, if I hadn't taken him he would have been pts, this is Bertie's story viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9271&hilit=Bertie he is a JRT/Maltese, since Bertie went to one of my neighbours I have since found out that the rescue he came from are turning dogs like this, I was asked to take another but I had Cyril then.

Cyril is my latest, he has had no previous training you can see his story at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9293&hilit=Cyril if you go to the second page you can see just how bad condition he was in when I got him. He is a puppy brain inside an adult body but is learning, he has come a long way since January.

Then there was Gracie, wanted to kill every dog she saw when she arrived including mine, Joe had been given drugs and was brain damaged, Merlin an ex racing Greyhound that had shut down completely, I can go on and on yet you seem to thing I should only have dogs bred to be companions. Thank goodness there are people like me that do take the trouble to learn about dog behaviour and how to train them, if there weren't, there would be a lot more good dogs being pts because of humans.

A dog doesn't have to do what he was bred for to have a decent life, many owners do take the trouble to give their dogs what they need by redirecting their instincts to something that they still enjoy and meets their needs.

I take it you have never had a JRT or other Terrier, these have been bred to think for themselves, if they can't they will be killed by the prey they go after, you can't train them as you can a Collie, Lab, GSD etc. you have to make it worth their while, they have not been bred to obey like a lot of breeds.

As to a pack, I have 4 dogs now, I used to have 6, I DON'T have a pack, I have a group of dogs that live together, a pack is mum, dad, and puppies, a pack is a family just like us humans have a family. Mum and dad are in charge, they set the family rules, when their pups are reaching maturing they are kicked out of the family, us humans don't kick our teenage hooligans out, we let them stay and take over the homes.

There are many ways to be a leader, you can lead by fear, if you don't do what I want I will make you, or you can rule by calmness, gentleness and by setting the dog up to do what we want when they are learning. Who would you prefer to work for, a boss that bullies you, if you don't want to do what they they want you are threatened, or one that treats you with respect, asks instead of tells, and says thank you.
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:54 am

[email protected] Mattie, its not all about YOU. My post about people that want a "pet" should only get dogs bred to be companions was a GENERAL statement, I was not saying that YOU should only own companion dogs...kudos for you patience and kindness for the dogs you have rescued....but you are not the only one who does rescue, I have also....my husband and I rescued 30 Dogo Argentinos from a puppy miller, all out of our pockets for vet bills, traveling to relocate and rehome some half way across the US, putting to sleep many because they were just to screwed up and dangerous for most people to be able to handle. I also owned an AMerican Bulldog rescue and a APBT rescue, who have since passed on, the AB of old age and the APBT of a SBO. I also owned(and trained) a Rat terrier, a dalamatian, and German Short Haired Pointers while growing up. I have actually hunted my American Bulldog and Dogo Argentinos on wild boar in Texas. I currently do PP work with my male Dogo Argentino.
I have a Belgian Malinois cross, she is the biggest wimp of a dog I have ever had, she is so thick that it takes her a lot longer than any other dog I have had to get information into her brain, she is terrified of her own shadow and especially men. She came to me direct from a pound when she was 20 weeks old, I may not be a trainer but I am an experienced owner who only takes dogs on with problems, she is obedient and has always had a good recall.
Like I said, DS and BM that come from true "working lines" not some mutt from a pound that is most likely the results of an AKC BM breeder dog, which is a joke in itself.
Then why do you characterize it as a "negative condition"?
See my earlier post on +P/-R
For the record, was Casper trying to "assert dominance" over Eric or not or just the newcomers? In the two sentences, you've said he wasn't and then said he was...
No where did I say Casper was "asserting dominance" over anyone, LOL...I stated that Casper was walking around stiff legged and tail up because he felt insecure with the new situation because ERIC had not asserted himself as pack leader tto Casper, hence Casper was ready to step up to the plate IF NEED BE since Casper felt Eric was not in control of the situation. See, here is where the problem lies...when someone like myself mentions "assert dominance" you AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME we are talking about PHYSICALLY DOMINANTING a dog. Wolves don't phycially dominate other pack members, they rule by body language, as well as the alpha eats first, the alpha says when it is time to hunt,sleep,eat, reproduce, etc. One of the ways of achieving "dominance" over your dog is the NILIF method.

[quoteDogs don't want to be pack leaders but are simultaneously asserting themselves as pack leaders by pulling, being on the couch, etc. Pack leaders are confident but dogs that assert themselves as pack leaders are unsure, not confident. That doesn't seem contradictory to you?
][/quote]
OK, I see you got that "misinformation" from that link on the "dominance myths," LMAO. OK, let me try to break this one down for you to better understand. You are correct in saying most dogs to not WANT to be pack leader, they look to us humans to be the boss(I do believe,however, that there are dogs that are just born as genetic "alphas" and some breeds are specifically bred for that trait,which goes back to the DS and BM that I spoke of). Things that WE HUMANS DO(from when the dog is young) such as allowing the dog to pull on the leash, allowing it on the furniture, allowing it to dictate to us when it gets affection, when it gets fed, etc, CAN EVENTUALLY lead to a "dominance struggle" between dog and human. Dogs don't automatically one day just "assert themselves" by pulling on leash when they never did it before or jumping on the couch when they have never been allowed on it before. We are "allowing" our dog to be pack leader, where some, especially intact males, will want to keep that status(as they mature).They will now growl at us when we try to now remove them from the couch they are on, etc. This is the point where mosyt trainers are contacted because their once loveable dog is becoming a growling terror. IMHO, this thing about the "dominance myth" is an attempt to take the blame off us humans(see most humans dont like being wrong in the first place) for what we actually caused in the first place, but not being "gentle leaders" to our dogs. Again, I will repeat, being a "pack leader" or your dogs "alpha"(one and the same) DOES NOT HAVE TO MEAN PHYSICALLY DOING SO. I again will refer to the NILIF method.

[quoteCan you explain to me why these breeds are more "dominant" than other breeds? I'm trying to understand.
][/quote]
Breeds like I mentioned were bred for their Guardian/Hunting(physically fighting the prey not like bird dogs) abilities. It is that "wanting to dominate and win"(fighting) instinct that keeps these dogs in the hunt even if they are hurt and loosing(let it be against human or animal). Breeds like Jagd and Patterdale Terriers, Dogo Argentinos, AMerican Bulldogs,Presa Canarios(all hunters of large and dangerous game),then you have LGDs like CAS and CO, which guard their flocks against things like coyotes, wolves, mountain lion,or Dutch Shepherds and Belgium Malnois that are used for Police/KNPV...their "partners' " lives may depend on their ability to hold off a dangerous perp. Most dogs(animals) have a "natural preservation instinct" which would be to flee if they are loosing or risking the chance of being killed,however, breeds like I mentioned, are bred specifically for that "dominant" trait that will keep them fighting and override that "self preservation" instinct. In the large game hunting breeds, it is referred to as "heart," in the fighting breeds, it is referred to as "gameness," and in Police dogs it is "fight drive," the same in some ways in all, yet also different. When these breeds aren't worked like they are supposed to, or aren't given outlets for these natural drives, can become insecure(they dont know what to do with themselves), and can redirect their "dominance" on other things, ie their owners, other dogs, animals, etc. It's called "displacement." Have you ever been bit by a dog that wanted to fight another dog, but it couldn't get to that dog, so out fo frustration, you get bit instead? I watch my dogo all the time get so frustrated when he misses catching a squirrel that he bites tree branches and rips them up, or bites the grass and rips up clumps of the lawn, lol. Then you have the dog fighting breeds, APBT's, Tosa Inus, Presas, Dogos, etc, that when they go into that "red zone" against another dog, there isn't a harsh enough correction in the world, nor a +R that will stop that dog. You have to know how to keep that dog from going into that red zone and read the dog before it gets to that point and redirect the dog. Now, I am not talking the fear aggression you see that a lot of dogs(non fighting breeds) have, but true dominance aggression. That dog WANTS to fight and win because of the adrenalin rush they get...and actually it doesn't have to be just dog/dog aggression, it can be dog/animal or even dog/human. That is what they are bred for(or we wouldn't have the KNPV or police dogs we do). DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT CONDONE OR AGREE WITH DOG/DOG FIGHTING AT ALL!!! I needed to use them,though, as examples of "dominance" and why these breeds are more "dominant" than others in order to answer Mattie's questions.
You are right, that are tools but tools that can do a lot of damage if not used properly]
Even verbally overcorrecting a dog can cause psychological damage to a really soft dog.

edited to add: dominance doesn't JUST have to do with being "pack leader" per se, none of what I have mentioned is "black or white" but many many shades of grey and is very complex, especially in the breeds that were bred SPECIFICALLY TO BE DOMINANT.
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:58 am

[quoteThere are many ways to be a leader, you can lead by fear, if you don't do what I want I will make you, or you can rule by calmness, gentleness and by setting the dog up to do what we want when they are learning. Who would you prefer to work for, a boss that bullies you, if you don't want to do what they they want you are threatened, or one that treats you with respect, asks instead of tells, and says thank you.][/quote]

Again, where did I say ANYTHING about FORCING a dog???? That'ts the problem here, a lot of ASSUMPTIONS that using a prong or ecollar is FORCING or BULLYING a dog into doing something, when it doesnt have to be used that way. a lot of PREJUDICE if you ask me. Like saying all pit bulls attack humans, yadda yadda.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by easilyconfused » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:35 am

I think the reason its described as bullying/forcing the dog to do something is because its a negative consequence for an action.

Dog on prong collar "If I pull forward it is uncomfortable/painfull so I will not pull" Dog chooses not to pull because its not nice to.

Dog on the chicken tactic "If I dont pull I get chicken" Dog chooses not to pull because it is pleasant not to.

Both dogs will not pull on the lead. Woot.

Its an over simplistic view but I would never put a device on my dog that can cause it discomfort/pain. That's not the sort of person I am and its not the way I want to live my life. My dogs are my friends and work willing "with" me. I dont care if they see themselves as leaders, me as leader or what ever. I try to make their lives fun and rewarding so they can make the association that I am fun and rewarding.
Having worked in a large UK no kill shelter group, training / rehabilitating many abused and neglected, fearfull/aggresive dogs I have never found a use for these "tools".
This "Red Zone" you talk off that these fighting breeds have, all dogs in an adrenaline filled fight will react like this. If provoked enough people are the same. The only way to stop this is with massive impulse control training to teach a dog to stop and think even under extreme conditions. This takes time and patience and not aversives and negative conditioning.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:04 pm

OK, I am reading this "Dominance Myths" thing on the APDT site and I am still trying to figure out where they came up with some of these "myths" that I dont see where it in the original study of wolves, I will copy and paste each one from the site here in blue:

Your dog barks at you to tell you he's in charge. Dominance? Definately not. Its a means of communication and possibly something you (inadvertantly) taught your dog to do for something. Mega twisting of words and ideas.

Your dog urinates in the house to show you that she owns the "territory" and not you Again, mega twisting of words and ideas. Intact male dogs mark, has nothing to do with it saying that he owns the terriory and you dont.

Your dog believes he is in control of the kitchen and is trying to eat before you.] Seriously???? A dog NEVER comes up with these ideas on its own unless you the human ALLOW the dog to eat first, CONVEYING the message that the dog is higher ranking than you.

Dogs jump up on people to assert their height and rank over you That is usually just bad training and allowing your dog to do so. Sometimes it is actually the dog wanting to great you submissively and lick you under your chin, and the only way they can reach you is to jump up.

Dogs pull on leash so they can get out in front of you and be in charge of you and the walk. Again, a bad behavior taught that can lead into the dog thinking he is the alpha because YOU ALLOWED IT TO BECOME higher ranking than you by ALLOWING IT to walk ahead of you. THEN, when you attempt to correct this, the dog that you ALLOWED ALPHA status now takes it as YOU CHALLENGING for the alpha status back.

Dogs push you out of the way and run through a doorway ahead of you to show you they're in charge. same as above, bad training, over excitment, not to SHOW US THEYRE BOSS!

Dogs who think they are boss will ignore you when you call them because they know they don't have to obey.] bad training, not dominance

Dogs mount other dogs or people to show that they are dominant. This can be a display of dominance, OR simply wanting attention, OR to instigate play.

Dogs get on the furniture and/or beds to show that they rule the household.] OMG, seriously???? Again, a bad habit we teach the dogs, not something they THINK ABOUT DOING TO SHOW US THEY ARE THE BOSS!!!!LMFAO!!! When WE ALLOW them on OUR furniture(the "bosses") furniture, it CAN be misconstrued by the dog that they are our equals, and may eventually result in them thinking they are the boss. A dog that growls at you when you try to move them while they are on the couch/bed or when you touch their food while eating is actually RESOURCE GUARDING, has nothing to do with dominance.

If you can show me these exact wordings of these "myths" that I have posted above, in the original studies that ya'll are referring to, please link them.


The History and Misconceptions of DominanceTheory
Note: The information in the following article came from an interview with Dr. Ian Dunbar, who spent nine years studying the social behavior of dogs during the study mentioned below. In an earlier version of this article, Dr. L. David Mech was credited with the 30-year study. This was a mistake. The researcher who conducted the study was Dr. Frank Beach. An effort has been made to correct this error. However, if you know of a place where the original article was published, please notify the editor and request a correction.
The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies:
These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life.
The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary. <~~~~~this is why I say it is WE who give our dogs the messages that we are subordinate to them, it is not them "trying to take over," WE screw it up.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?
.
Finally, after the studies, the researchers made cavalier extrapolations from wolf-dog, dog-dog, and dog-human based on their "findings." Unfortunately, this nonsense still abounds.
So what's the truth? The truth is dogs aren't wolves. Honestly, when you take into account the number of generations past, saying "I want to learn how to interact with my dog so I'll learn from the wolves" makes about as much sense as saying, "I want to improve my parenting -- let's see how the chimps do it!"
Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings:
Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy.
Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable.
When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments."
Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are.
The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing.
There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic.
A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator.
The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...
Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals. <~~~~~~~this is why we have to be calm,soft spoken leaders,not yelling or screaming at our dogs. the corrections we give must be calm, confident,secure
Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it.
"Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less. So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?
Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble.
To be "alpha," control the resources. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition.
Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination.
Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy.
Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs... food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own.
In a recent article in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) newsletter, Dr. Ray Coppinger -- a biology professor at Hampshire College, co-founder of the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, author of several books including Dogs : A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution; and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community -- says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling)...
"I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy."
That pretty much sums it up, don't you think?
Melissa Alexander
melissa @ clickersolutions.com
copyright 2001 Melissa C. Alexander
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:33 pm

Dog on the chicken tactic "If I dont pull I get chicken" Dog chooses not to pull because it is pleasant not to.
So you area going to have to carry chicken around for the rest of your life in order for you dog to "behave?" That seems pretty impractical to me. Or better yet, when that dog would rather go catch and kill the cat that just walked in front of you instead of eating a piece of chicken you have in your hand.

Now, I didn;t come on here to argue that your training methods are wrong and mine are right. I came on here to show you if correctly used, ecollars and prongs can be used humanely. No one training method or theory applies to every and all dogs. Each dog is an individual and needs to be treated/trained as such. You use whatever tool you need in order to calmly and humanely train a dog, for some that may be a regular flat collar, some a martingale, or you may need a prong. An ecollar is mainly for off leash training and control. Some dogs you can allow on furniture and they will never think twice that this may equate to them being equal or above you, while others you cannot even give half an inch without them thinking they are being allowed to be in charge(its their genetic makeup),which are what I own now. I in no way,shape,or form can physically push around or dominate either dog that I own, for they are also "soft" besides. Until you own a dog like this, it is hard to understand,however,it is very characteristic of a Dogo Argentino. The saying always goes that you must "rule with and iron hand with a velvet glove." A harsh correction to either one of them will result in not trusting me and possibly cause them to become fear biters. You may not think it, but we are actually on the same page as far as "humanely" training a dog.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by nightsrainfall » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:00 pm

I personally don't mind the word dominance itself, however I'm starting to dislike it more and more as it's used for far too many different things that aren't quite the same. I.E. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance and if you notice there's not a definition in that but a set of incidences of which the word is used to describe something from computer programing, to strategy, all the way over to population. "Ecological dominance is the degree to which a species is more numerous than its competitors in an ecological community" I would think it would be the one that's the most influential from all the other definitions of dominance... though dominance can also mean a high status, or being expressed (dominate gene)... It's creating more and more confusion and misunderstandings in many fields.

Back to the thread topic...

I do believe there are dog breeds who you want to be extremely consistent with because of that you give an inch, and the dog not only will do it again, they will take it one step farther. I don't use the term dominate for them, they are just very assertive, driven, and independent (and I consider these good traits personally). If you do not give dogs like these a job, or redirect their attention to something, they will find something else to do (probably not even thinking if it's something we don't want). Which is how we get into having difficulties with these breeds.

At the shelter I'm allowed to work with "red-zone", "dominate", and difficult dogs because I have standards (thus am consistent), observant, re-active (I don't let the dog do just anything, I'll intervien, redirect, stop, etc) and I am fairly preemptive. I also observe the dogs though, so most of my ways are just through passive corrections before the dog reacts, redirection, giving the dog something to do, or +R if I can.
- Anna

"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole."
~ Roger A. Caras

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:36 pm

It may be worth you reading http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/ ... nglish.pdf it was written by David Mech1, the man who started the dominance theory. He has also done this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU There is also http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ ... tement.pdf>>>>>

It should also be noted that Dr.Mech has stated the word alpha is certainly applicable when wolves are put together in a group that is outside its immediate family. as they develop a pecking order.


I do think people sometimes get caught up in terminology. I think most will agree that humans should show leadership or guidance. Throw the word dominance or pack in there and all hell brakes loose. :)

Also by definition NILF is exerting dominance as you are controlling resources.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by easilyconfused » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:16 pm

abndogos wrote:
So you area going to have to carry chicken around for the rest of your life in order for you dog to "behave?" That seems pretty impractical to me. Or better yet, when that dog would rather go catch and kill the cat that just walked in front of you instead of eating a piece of chicken you have in your hand.
When training a dog I will carry food with me if its motivated that way, but once its trained then there is no need. There are many rewarding ways to motivate a dog once it knows what its up to. Do prong collars / e-collars always need to be worn after training is done? In the uk we dont have leash laws and my own dogs I use the leash as a training tool that I wean off the same as treats. I always carry one but never need it. Although I am expecting a new pup in a few months so it'll get some wear for a while.

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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:52 pm

Easilyconfused, I am curious if you have "worked with" any of the breeds I have mentioned, since most are illegal in the UK, except I think the Dutch Shepherd and Belgium Malinois(and not show line dogs, I mean real deal KNPV lines). I ask, because I am curious as to how you are going to "positively motivate" a dog such as a Dogo Argentino, that will laugh at your chicken treat when it can go after a live animal to "quench its drives" instead, or even a Dutchie that is going to rather go bite the guy in a suit over your chicken bait any day of the week. How do you teach a police/KNPV dog to "out" on command when it is on the bite and is high in fight drive???? Oh, have to add, if a PPD/PSD dog will out over a piece of chicken, then it would be considered a cull and would be scratched from that training program.

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