Presa Canario Episode

Any time new episodes of It’s Me or the Dog are airing on Animal Planet in the US, Victoria will answer questions about that episode later that week. Post your questions to Victoria about the most recent episode here anytime.

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Swissieowner
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Presa Canario Episode

Post by Swissieowner » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:40 pm

There are 2 easy recommendations for owners who are reluctant to neuter. The first is that they can contact a theorigenologist (reproduction expert) and have their dog's semen frozen. Second, there is a product called 'Neuticles" that can be implanted to keep the look of an intact male. These suggestions may have made the decision easier for the owner.

mazzama06
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by mazzama06 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:53 am

I just watched it and I am confused about the boy wanting to breed the dog. He kept saying he thought it would be fun to play with the puppies and then find them good homes. He also stated he wouldn't breed the dog unless he knew people that wanted them. What I am confused is that the dog he had was the male. A male is used like a stud, so the boy wouldn't have had the puppies there with him. Also he probably would have had no say that much as to where the puppies went as the person that had the female dog would be in charge of the puppies.

jiml
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:31 pm

The trainer ,Mike from K91, in this episode uses aversives in his training. He is in my area and i know he uses tools like prong collars and such in addition to pos reinforcement (in fact the pit bull in the demonstration has a pinch collar on). So my question for victoria is do you agree w his training techniques and if so under what circumstances?

dontpugme
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by dontpugme » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:04 pm

She talked about this on twitter a few times.
The wolf was not wearing a prong.Eric needed support to continue the training after I left & +R methods were the only ones to be used.
While I don't agree w some of the aversive mthds that those trainers somex use, I was assured that +R wd be the only ones used with Caspar
Eric and Caspar needed a support system after I left and these guys were the only option.They are good guys too
And I can't find it anymore, but I think Mike commented on one of Victoria's twitpics with them that said that she left a positive impact on them.
--dontpugme

jiml
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:59 am

the walk away method w a harness is not +R its +p/-R. a variation of a kohler technique.

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Mattie
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Mattie » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:46 am

jiml wrote:the walk away method w a harness is not +R its +p/-R. a variation of a kohler technique.
Can you explain why you are saying it is +p/-R and the kohler technique please?
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jiml
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:05 pm

I believe Kohler orig had you do the same excercise w a choke chain or prong.

the harness is uncomfortable to pull against. even a flat collar is a mild neg reinforcer if walking the other way or standing like a tree. +R is not in a bubble other quadrants are always in play, they can only be minimized.

from mike on facebook:
"Yes, we discussed using the easy walker harness with her that you see at the end of the episode after she did that modified koehler method in the yard. The harness was the final touch that Casper needed. The easy walker harness is pure positive punishment and negative reinforcement. It is obviously not stressful to the dog but helps discourage the pulling behavior while still working the positive reinforcement. I wish more people were educated on "friendly" +P/-R." ---------" It is part of every living creatures life and helps us all understand how to survive in this world better and judging by all the dogs that have gone through our program that were recommended for euthanasia by purely +R trainers it DOES save dogs lives. More often than not though most +R trainers do use +P/-R. They either don't realize it or just don't admit it. This episode is a great example, you see it right in front of your face. Tyson, Elu, and Casper all have "friendly" +P/-R in their training plans and you don't see any dogs looking like they are abused and there is no camera tricks."
Last edited by jiml on Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mattie
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Mattie » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:35 pm

jiml wrote:I believe Kohler orig had you do the same excercise w a choke chain or prong.

the harness is uncomfortable to pull against. even a flat collar is a mild neg reinforcer if walking the other way or standing like a tree. +R is not in a bubble other quadrants are always in play, they can only be minimized.
A well fitted harness is not uncomfortable, in fact they are very comfortable for a dog to wear, if they were uncomfortable many dogs would object to them being put on, mine can't get theirs on fast enough.

When you turn and walk the other way you should also encourage your dog to turn with you, if you do this properly the lead doesn't give a pull on the harness, this method should not be done on a collar as standing like a tree shouldn't either. Dogs necks are very sensitive and can be damaged very easily.
from mike on facebook:
"Yes, we discussed using the easy walker harness with her that you see at the end of the episode after she did that modified koehler method in the yard. The harness was the final touch that Casper needed. The easy walker harness is pure positive punishment and negative reinforcement. It is obviously not stressful to the dog but helps discourage the pulling behavior while still working the positive reinforcement. I wish more people were educated on "friendly" +P/-R. People automatically assume that if you see a prong collar or choke collar you must be brutalizing the dogs. This does happen often, hence why it is important to educate on their correct use and not just pretend that +P/-R is automatically evil. It is part of every living creatures life and helps us all understand how to survive in this world better and judging by all the dogs that have gone through our program that were recommended for euthanasia by purely +R trainers it DOES save dogs lives. More often than not though most +R trainers do use +P/-R. They either don't realize it or just don't admit it. This episode is a great example, you see it right in front of your face. Tyson, Elu, and Casper all have "friendly" +P/-R in their training plans and you don't see any dogs looking like they are abused and there is no camera tricks."
Do you have Mike's permission to copy that to this board, also that recommends the use of prong collars and choke chains which is against this board's rules, sorry.

That harness has the strap round the body too close to the dog's elbow and can cause the dog to be uncomfortable as well as rub the dog raw. There are better designed harnesses for dogs, you really need the dog to be comfortable with what he is wearing to teach him to walk properly on a lead.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]

jiml
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:03 pm

Im sorry for posting that. :( I now edited out that part.

However A no pull harness works precisely because it is uncomfortable to pull against. That does not mean they are uncomfortable to put on. The fact that your dog is happy to put on any restraining device is irrelevant. They have been classically conditioned to like the product because good things happen when its put on.

I am not arguing for the use of harsh aversives. I was asking victoria a fair question. I am arguing that anyone can train w only +R. McConnell, Pryer, Dunbar(he recently posted a vid covering this subject) and im sure Victoria will technically back that up.

the goal w this training is minimizing +p and -R, it can not be eliminated.

Wicket
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Wicket » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:38 pm

I've never read any trainer say that a dog can be trained using only positive reinforcement. Recommended here are time outs, which depending on the dogs' point of view are a form of negative punishment (something good is taken away) or positive punishment (something is added) to decrease the behavior (hence the punishment part). +R trainers do punish but do try to minimize the aversives. You might find this article by Dr. Ian Dunbar helpful. Since you brought up Pryor, here's an article from her.

I agree the use of an easy walk harness can be negative reinforcement (as far I understand it) since it makes the dog uncomfortable whenever he pulls so whenever he walks correctly, the uncomfortableness will go away thus increasing the likelihood will heel.

After reading a thread on the K9-1 website about coming when called that described e-collars and training collar use, I, too, am surprised that Victoria recommended K9-1 trainers, knowing her stance on aversives and commitment to purely positive training. From what I can see that they are in the "balanced" category of training.

abndogos
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:58 pm

Mike says it all right here,"More often than not though most +R trainers do use +P/-R. They either don't realize it or just don't admit it.:

Jim, where abouts do you live, I am one of Mike's clients...I own the Dogo Argentino you see on one of his PP videos.


NONE, of MIke's training methods are harsh on the dogs WHATSOEVER, despite the use of prong and ecollars.....you see, it is a tool like any other, and there is a right way and a wrong way to use them. Mike uses them correctly. Any of the dogs that are trained by Mike LOVE him....so if he was causing them stress or pain, they would not like him, they would not get all excited and kiss and lick him, they would tuck tail and shy away. I,for one, would not have been using Mike now for over 2 years if he was cruel to dogs.

The "time out" you are speaking of above is actually "negative reinforcement" (taking away what the dog enjoys and not paying attention to the dog/no praise).

I am the one who brought up the modified Kohler method on facebook . I noticed it right away when I watched the show and decided to ask Mike about it, since I new Kohler was not a +R only trainer. I was curious as to where Victoria had learned that, and wondered if she even realized that method is actually +P(the dog correcting itself on the harness) and -R(turning around and walking the other way and not speaking to the dog). You actually don't say a word to the dog except "heel" ONE TIME when you first step off on your left foot. THis method teaches your dog to pay attention to you and stay next to you at all times in order to avoid the self correction.
http://koehlerdogtraining.com/

jiml
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by jiml » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:27 am

NONE, of MIke's training methods are harsh on the dogs WHATSOEVER, despite the use of prong and ecollars>>>

I was not criticizing mike at all, or victoria for that matter. I simply wanted to hear from victoria if in her opinion their is instances where she feels a "balanced" approach is necessary? If so what are the criteria she uses.

I am actually about 1/2 hour away in orange

abndogos
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:43 am

Wasn't saying you in particular was critizing, I was just making a general statement to eveyone out there. It just gets annoying when people who truly have no clue about using particular "tools" when training a dog, goes on and on claiming that all who use those tools are cruel. Yes, I agree a lot of people have no clue and do abuse the tools, however, some don;t and actually have a clue what they are doing, and shouldn't be lumped into that same catagory. I also don't believe there is one clear cut straight forward method for every single dog, they are all individuals and you use what works for that particular dog, therefore,one should be versed in all methods of training to be the best trainer. Dealing with large,dominant breeds such as the presa, or like my intact male Dogo Argentino, you have open your mind to most training methods that are not downright abusive or that could make the dog more aggressive. I,too, am curious to hear Victoria's take. WIth AKC accepting a bunch more breeds this year into Misc. CLass, including the Dogo Argentino and the SOuth African Boerboel, trainers/behaviorists are going to have their hands full, since most people that are getting a hold of these large dominant WORKING breeds have no business owning them as pets. They are going to be surprised when their cute puppy matures into an adult and starts growling at them over things such as food,or when that cute intact male puppy that they used to take to the dog park that played with all the other dogs, suddenly gets into a fight with another dog and almost kills it.

Wicket
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by Wicket » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:09 am

abndogos wrote: The "time out" you are speaking of above is actually "negative reinforcement" (taking away what the dog enjoys and not paying attention to the dog/no praise).
Do you mind explaining more why this is -R? I can see how not paying attention to the dog until he does the desired behavior and then the correct behavior is reinforced with attention or whatever motivates the dog. By time out, I am referring to removing the dog from the room for 10 seconds at most (or the owner leaving the dog for the same amount of time.) In my post, I didn't mention anything about ignoring the dog. As Ian Dunbar--one of the prominent founders of +R (misonomer) trainers--says it depends on the dog's perception of it, regardless what we categorize it as.
(snip) a +R only trainer.
+R-"only" trainers don't exist. No dog is going to be trained purely through positive reinforcement and from what I've read, I haven't seen any well known +R trainers make this claim. In fact, they say the contrary. (See above). If you have evidence of numerous +R trainers saying that a dog can be trained purely through +R ALONE, then I'd be interested to read it.
Yes, I agree a lot of people have no clue and do abuse the tools, however, some don;t and actually have a clue what they are doing, and shouldn't be lumped into that same catagory. I also don't believe there is one clear cut straight forward method for every single dog, they are all individuals and you use what works for that particular dog, therefore,one should be versed in all methods of training to be the best trainer.
Since we're having a dialogue here, do you think it's possible to harm a dog with tools even when you do it the right way? Again, I haven't read any +R trainer say that there's "one clear cut method for every single dog." Even with +R training, there are numerous ways to train a heel, a sit, cope with aggression, etc. using the principles underlined in the general philosophy. +R does acknowledge that dogs are individuals. :)
large dominant WORKING breeds
What makes one breed more "dominant" over the others? What kind of breeds do you think +R trainers specialize in?

abndogos
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Re: Presa Canario Episode

Post by abndogos » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:27 am

Sorry, I guess my interpretaion is different than yours of a time out....
Negative Reinforcement strengthens a behavior because a negative condition is stopped or avoided as a consequence of the behavior. Punishment, on the other hand, weakens a behavior because a negative condition is introduced or experienced as a consequence of the behavior.
Say you have visitors that come over and your dog is dying to say hi to them and jumps up on them and is a pain in the butt....you put the dog in a time out(sit stay or down stay) and do not allow it to interact with the people everytime it jumps up to say hi. No attention = negative condition until dog calms down:dog calms down,negative condition(no attention) stops. In some instances, though, a time out may reinforce the behavior you are trying to stop(like you said, depends on the dog's perception. Good example is a dog growling at another dog or person(dog is uncomfortable, hence why it is growling). If you remove the dog from that situtation and do your kind of a time out, you could be actually reinforcing the growling cause you are removing the dog from its stressor(whatever is causing it to growl), therefore, you are teaching it when it is uncomforatble and it growls,you will remove it from the situation it doesnt like in the first place.

When one advertises to the general public that they are a "Positive Reinforcement Trainer" that is what the general public only sees....they don't understand dog training, let alone Skinner's Psychology. They think that this trainer is +R ONLY, cause that is what is in thier face, so to speak. Plus,when a +R trainer goes on to say that all ecollar training and prong collars are bad, it sets up for people to be "prejudice" against trainers that use them, without actually knowing the concept behind training with those tools. I have this argument a lot with +R trainers, telling me I "electrocute" my dog or "stab" my dog. It's like saying guns are bad....no, they aren't, its the bad people that own them are, there are still lots of responsible gun owners out there. More cars kill people than guns, so should we outlaw cars? However, I will say that 90% of the general public that own PET dogs are not educated enough to use tools such as ecollars or prong collars, there is way too much room for error,so +R is a SAFER way to train, yes. BUT, saying the use of ecollars and prongs are cruel is WRONG and FALSE IF USED CORRECTLY, and saying that trainers that use them are cruel is just like saying all pit bulls are bad and attack people. So,to answer your question, no, when those tools are used correctly(ie proper situation, etc), no, they will not cause harm, either physically or mentally,to the dog.

What kind of dogs do I think +R trainers usually deal with? Definately not a dog like this Presa, no offense. Nor like my Dogo Argentino, or Cane Corso's, Central Asian Ovcharkas, Caucasian Ovcharkas, Boerboels, Filas, Sarplaninacs, tc. All these breeds need their owners to be pack leaders, and the +R trainers that are saying the "dominace" theory is all wrong is setting up these dogs for failure. Now, I am not saying to "muscle" these types of breeds around and to "alpha roll" these dogs to be your dog's alpha, BUT, there are many other ways to "dominate" your dog without physically doing it, its all by actions and attitude. I could see right away with Eric that he was letting Casper call the shots, and that he had not "proven" himself as alpha. With breeds such as the above mentioned, if you do not promote yourself as the pack leader, your dog can become very insecure, I could see that Casper was insecure by his body language in this show, and being that he felt Eric was not in control, Casper felt that he had to be. Also, with these breeds, if you don't have outlets for their natural drives(what they were bred to do originally), they can also become very insecure and even aggressive.

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