Shock Collar

Discussion of specific It's Me or the Dog episodes.

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Mattie
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Mattie » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:57 am

Make sure there is plenty of distance between your dog and what she is likely to react to, the bigger the distance the less likely she will react and will be in a position to learn that there is nothing to be frightened of. :D
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jjphoenix
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by jjphoenix » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:57 pm

Liz & Koa wrote:Hi,

I would be much happier if he showed his fear by hiding behind me rather than lashing out. :)
yes! lennox is fear aggressive, i thought for a long time it was protectivness, but its not and now certain things have been pointed out i can see it. victorias got quite a few episodes on aggression and explains how it comes out of fear
money can buy a dog but only love will wags its tail - DEED NOT BREED

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Re: Shock Collar

Post by jjphoenix » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:58 pm

money can buy a dog but only love will wags its tail - DEED NOT BREED

Liz & Koa
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Liz & Koa » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:20 pm

Thanks jj,

I could not watch it from that link. Do you know when it aired? I will search for it that way.

Liz

AmBullMom
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by AmBullMom » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:57 pm

I'm really surprised that prong collars are somewhat glossed over when shock collars are so vehemently abhorred.

Emotional and psychological fall out can occur whenever any type of punishment is used. The odds are just as likely when a prong collar is used as when a shock collar is used; the outcome largely depends on the dog, the handler, and whether or not the tool is used "correctly." (Let it be known that I, personally, am completely against both "tools", along with choke chains, and even head collars as training tools.)

Unfortunately, if a dog is reacting or behaving aggressively, we cannot know "why". The fact that the dog is reacting to something within the environment means that we're not paying attention to both the dog and the environment - if the dog is reacting, then it's because he's over threshold, and every time a dog goes over his threshold, he loses the ability to learn from the situation, and his ability to learn anything in general is limited for anywhere from 3-10 days after the incident because of a spike in stress hormones. Sometimes, we can't avoid one of our dog's triggers, but if we can avoid it, and we simply choose not to, we're doing a great disservice to our dogs!

My own reactive dog is a 140+ pound American Bulldog. He was the product of a backyard breeder who just "wanted to see what the pups would look like." Both of his parents had major psychological and physical problems food allergies, thyroid disorder, etc), and as a result the parents' issues and numerous other problems, the entire litter, save for my dog, had been euthanized by the time they were 9 months old. Knowing that any behavior - and I do mean any behavior - can be modified to some degree, it was not just the fault of the breeders, the new puppy owners, genetics, or anything else, but a lack of understanding by everyone involved with the other pups. They didn't know how to read canine body language, or how to prevent or respond to their dog's reactions. Many of the puppy owners resorted to prong, choke, and shock collars rather than professional training or behavior modification, and it cost the dogs their lives.

At the end of the day, we can use all the "tools" we want, but if we're not teaching our dogs what we want them to do in any given situation; if we're not giving our dogs the life skills they need to cope in the face of their triggers, then we're not doing everything we can to provide them with the lives they deserve. If we're not doing everything we can to prevent the reactive outburst in the first place, then our dogs will never be able to learn in the first place, so it's doing more harm than good. There are other ways around undedirable behaviors besides resorting to aversives, even "mild" ones.

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Noobs
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Noobs » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:05 am

Hello, AmBullMom, welcome to the forum.

Believe me, you are preaching to the choir. The policy of this board is against aversive training tools including the prong collar. Many of the members of this forum (myself included) used them at one point and saw there was a better way. There are also some members of this forum who, like you, don't like the head collar either.

That said, Liz has been a member here for a while, many of us expressed our disappointment (albeit in an earlier and different thread on the old forum) in her use of the prong collar and some of the methods she had in place before, but honestly, at this point we're not going to shun her from the board because she's sticking with it. All we can do is support her while she's doing her best working with Koa.

I am so sorry to hear about your dog's history; that's horrible. But good on you that your dog is still with you. If you take a look around the forums, you'll see that what you've described in your post is exactly what many of the members, behaviorists and average dog owners alike, are trying to teach here. So you are definitely in the right place and I personally hope that you stick around and will be able to offer your obvious expertise to the folks here who need help.

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Mattie
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Mattie » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:48 am

AmBullMom wrote:I'm really surprised that prong collars are somewhat glossed over when shock collars are so vehemently abhorred.
Prong collars are not glossed over, all we can do is give information on these and any other gadget that is used, all gadgets can be cruel if not used properly. We do try to educate owners on why they shouldn’t use many of these gadgets, we do try to help them work through their problems with their dogs but if we attack them, tell them they are bad owners etc. they will disappear and continue to use these terrible gadgets on their dogs.

In order to condemn these we also have to know how they should be used, you can’t condemn something if you don’t know how they work, it is only by knowing this that we can explain to owners why they shouldn’t use them.

Many owners don’t have the confidence to go alone without them because they can hold their dog, the thread on loose lead walking often causes a lot of laughter because owners can’t see how it will work and they think they will look foolish doing it. It is only when they are so desperate that some owners will give it a try then are shocked when within 10 minutes most dogs are walking on a loose lead.
Emotional and psychological fall out can occur whenever any type of punishment is used. The odds are just as likely when a prong collar is used as when a shock collar is used; the outcome largely depends on the dog, the handler, and whether or not the tool is a choke chains, and even head collars as training tools.)

The do a lot more damage than emotionally and psychologically, many dogs have their spines, necks etc damaged when these are used. In the case of head collars, a friend once saw a dog break his neck because of a headcollar, she has never forgotten it.
Unfortunately, if a dog is reacting or behaving aggressively, we cannot know "why". The fact that the dog is reacting to something within the environment means that we're not paying attention to both the dog and the environment - if the dog is reacting, then it's because he's over threshold, and every time a dog goes over his threshold, he loses the ability to learn from the situation, and his ability to learn anything in general is limited for anywhere from 3-10 days after the incident because of a spike in stress hormones. Sometimes, we can't avoid one of our dog's triggers, but if we can avoid it, and we simply choose not to, we're doing a great disservice to our dogs!
Couldn’t have put it better myself. :D
My own reactive dog is a 140+ pound American Bulldog. He was the product of a backyard breeder who just "wanted to see what the pups would look like." Both of his parents had major psychological and physical problems food allergies, thyroid disorder, etc), and as a result the parents' issues and numerous other problems, the entire litter, save for my dog, had been euthanized by the time they were 9 months old. Knowing that any behavior - and I do mean any behavior - can be modified to some degree, it was not just the fault of the breeders, the new puppy owners, genetics, or anything else, but a lack of understanding by everyone involved with the other pups. They didn't know how to read canine body language, or how to prevent or respond to their dog's reactions. Many of the puppy owners resorted to prong, choke, and shock collars rather than professional training or behavior modification, and it cost the dogs their lives.
Unfortunately many trainers and behaviourists do more damage to dogs than these gadgets, they don’t understand how dogs think, how you can train them, how to read their body language etc.
At the end of the day, we can use all the "tools" we want, but if we're not teaching our dogs what we want them to do in any given situation; if we're not giving our dogs the life skills they need to cope in the face of their triggers, then we're not doing everything we can to provide them with the lives they deserve. If we're not doing everything we can to prevent the reactive outburst in the first place, then our dogs will never be able to learn in the first place, so it's doing more harm than good. There are other ways around undedirable behaviors besides resorting to aversives, even "mild" ones.
I think you will fit in very well here, Welcome to the forum. :lol:
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Liz & Koa
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Liz & Koa » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:47 pm

Thanks noobs,

I like everyone else on this forum does not like prong collars, but at the same time, I am not going to have my dog, pulling, lunging, and just all out freaking out everytime he sees something that sets him off. I see a woman in our neighborhood who has a beagle. That dog drags her down the street. It is maddning to watch. I have tried to get her to follow Mattie's advice, but she must like the pulling.

My vet has suggested that I see another behaviorist for Koa. It never ends. It is so hard after having a GSD for 11 years with no issues. It really is an eye opener as to what to look for when getting a dog from a rescue. Still, no regrets. I feel we have been the best think for Koa. I don't think many people would have put the time and money into him. We have no children so we have been able to dedicate a lot of time to him.

He has gotten much better in the last year. For me to walk with my neighbor and her dog is great. He just has his 3-5 foot threshold for straingers. I wish we could get past that. I do use the babyfood, and that works wonders.

He is currently on Prozac and it seems to help, but I want to take him off of it, if his issue is protection of house and me then I don't see the reason for him to be on it. That is the reason for another behaviorist.

We will see.

:)

jjphoenix
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by jjphoenix » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:34 pm

Liz & Koa wrote:Thanks jj,

I could not watch it from that link. Do you know when it aired? I will search for it that way.

Liz
sorry yes its episode 4 season 4, i watched it on channel 4 on demand! :D
money can buy a dog but only love will wags its tail - DEED NOT BREED

Liz & Koa
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Liz & Koa » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:41 pm

Great, thanks.

I see you are in Hull, Mass., right? I am in Weymouth, so I should be able to find it.

:)

thevelvetvampire
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by thevelvetvampire » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:48 pm

I dont see how anyone could put a shock collar on their dog this seems to me like that would be cruel to the poor animal.
I thank people should always use reinforcment training instead. And im glad to know that theres great trainers out there like Victoria.I always try things i see on the show that i thank might help with my baby doxie.

Sequeena
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Sequeena » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:34 pm

What I find amazing is that the majority of people who condone shock collars have never used them, think they're great BUT would never use it on their dog because they 'just couldn't push the button'.

From another forum;
I saw that episode Nick, he showed the guy and the guy just said it didn't hurt at all, and he had it on the highest didn't he?

And I agree, that pic could be from anything really..

But again, I wouldn't use one on Rogue, coz I wouldn't be able to push the button, even though I know it won't hurt him.


Why would you say such a thing if you agreed with using a shock collar? Surely if you knew they would work you would not hesitate to use it on your dog. It all seems a bit hypocritical to me.

And I'm fed up of people trying to compare a dogs pain threshold to a human's. I once accidentally dug in a bit too hard when grooming my german shepherd. She yelped and pulled away from me. I tried the same thing on my arm and it was only a mild discomfort. Dogs are not humans! They don't think like us, they don't speak our language, they don't feel pain in the same way as us. They are so sensitive to any sort of negativity and ultimately you may provide a temporary solution for your dog. Will your dog be fearful of you, aggressive? Definitely. Your bond? Gone.

I will never ever use one of these collars on my dogs. My mastiff pup is dog aggressive and Lord knows I hope that training her to become more accepting of them will happen overnight but it won't. It takes time and a lot of patience - something I'm not known for.

I value my dog's trust and their life far too much to put them through such a horrible experience. In all honestly shame on anyone who condones these and willingly uses them on their dog. Their dog would be better off being rehomed if you have this sort of attitude towards training.

Oops. :oops: Getting off my soapbox now!! *scurries away*

Sequeena
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Sequeena » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:35 pm

Just to add I also hate choke collars, prong collars etc. The people who thought these up are sick individuals.

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Emmy'sMama
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Re: Shock Collar

Post by Emmy'sMama » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:52 pm

Yeah, I don't like the choke chain either. When I was growing up, my family owned a 100+ pound Kuvasz who never really learned how to leash walk (she died young of disease :( ). Not knowing any better, we walked her on a choke chain and I just recall that she still pulled quite heavily, yet you could hear the chain pushing into her voice box, the result being a wheezing sound that I'm sure you all have heard at some point while walking an excited, pulling dog with a leash attached to a collar. I wish I could go back in time and do it the right way. I would not use the choke chain again.

From the first with Emma, I have used a harness and she does much better. Plus, when she was a puppy, I didn't have to worry about a collar injuring her neck while walking. Of course, Emma is not a big puller and is only 45Ibs, so I know I have it VERY easy.

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Re: Shock Collar

Post by mustlovdoggs » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:46 pm

Hi everyone, Well I don't Like collars at all. Maybe I am to soft but, I wouldn't want a collar on me or my kids. So harness is the way I go. Had a dog that pulled so hard with a reg. collar that he'd hurt him self. So I went to a harness. :)
I wished I was the person my dogs thinks I am.

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