Max the Gordon Setter?

[brett504]

Come on you got to be kidding, that dog was no Gordon setter. And red? the American Kennel Club will not reconize that dog.
and it did by no means look like an Gordon Setter. That dog looked a cross between an Irish Water Spaniel with that curly top, and an Irish setter. In fact it looked like a mutt. What does David Hamilton do to that dog, shave it? or does it have mange? It looked terrible.

[emmabeth]

Im not sure if you are referring to an english episode or an american one... anyway did you have a question to ask, or just an opinion to impart?

[brett504]

It was the England one, It aired on November25,08 now I know its taped but that was when I saw it. If you look at the schedule it shows the dog I am talking about this animal could not stop salviaing and chewing a door it love to see it self in it. The animal was as victoria said OCD.

[emmabeth]

The UK Kennel Club will register non-standard colours (and markings) in any breed as the breed they are... so Max if his parents are KC reg dogs could very well be a KC reg Gordon Setter.

Red Gordons do crop up from time to time just as non-standard colours crop up in other breeds (labradors with white patches on their chests or black marks on their toes for example, white GSDs, albino Dobermans, parti-coloured poodles..) .. in some black and tan breeds such as dobermans the same colour variation you see on Max is permitted..

What happens with KC Reg dogs though is that whilst they are registered as the breed they are, theres no point in showing one - no white Dobie or red Gordon is ever going to place!

The long hair max has on his head is common in setters (and spaniels too), sometimes as a result of neutering sometimes just natural but its not often seen as most people will strip that out.

Im not sure if the american kennel club allow mismarks or non standard colours to be registered but as Max is an english dog i should think thats fairly irrelevant.

[ckranz]

With AKC they could be registered 1 of 2 ways. Obviously with known parantage they could still be registered though would never be able to be shown for departures from the breed standard.

If the parantage is unknown then the dog could be registered via ILP. This is not usualy done for comformation, but will suffice for obedience and agility in AKC.

[brett504]

No the america Kennel Club does not reconize that. Its not allowed. I had looked it up on there web site.
Very interesting, I did not know UK did. But Gordon Setters are tan and black, not red if red, AKC does not reconize them at all.

Thanks for the information.

[Mattie]

If there are several pups in a litter and one is the wrong colour, the American Kennel Club recognises all the pups except the one with the wrong colour even though it has the same parents. That doesn't make sense.

[ckranz]

ILP registration.

Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege
Giving all purebred dogs a chance to compete

Note: A fee of $10 was instituted, effective January 1, 2003, for Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege transfers or duplicate certificates. For more information contact [email protected].

The AKC, PAL/ILP and You
Many people have discovered the fun of teaming up with their dogs and competing in AKC Events. But, not all of those wonderful canine athletes that you see at these events are registered with the AKC. Some might be enrolled in the AKC's Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege (PAL/ILP), a program that allows unregistered dogs of registrable breeds to compete in AKC Performance and Companion Events, also 41 specific breeds in the FSS® Program that are eligible for Companion Events.

If you have a purebred dog that cannot be registered with the AKC and have a desire to see what your dog can do in real competition, a PAL/ILP number is your ticket to the world of AKC events and clubs!

Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege (PAL/ILP): The program that provides purebred dogs a second chance.
There are various reasons why a purebred dog might not be eligible for registration. The dog may be the product of an unregistered litter, or have unregistered parents. The dog's papers may have been withheld by its breeder or lost by its owner. Sometimes, it is the dog itself that was "lost." There are many dogs enrolled in the PAL/ILP program after they have been surrendered or abandoned, then adopted by new owners from animal shelters or purebred rescue groups. The PAL/ILP program allows the dog and owner a second chance at discovering the rewards of participating in AKC events.

What AKC events may a PAL/ILP dog Participate in?
The Purebred Alternative Listing Program/Indefinite Listing Privilege (PAL/ILP) is designed to allow dogs to participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events. The AKC Events that a PAL/ILP dog can participate in are:
Agility Trials (All Breeds)
Earthdog Trials (Small Terriers and Dachshunds)
Herding Tests and Trials ( Herding Breeds, Rottweilers and Samoyeds)
Hunt Tests (Most Sporting Breeds and Standard Poodles)
Junior Showmanship (All Breeds)
Lure Coursing (Sighthounds)
Obedience Trials (All Breeds)
Rally Trials (All Breeds)
Tracking Tests (All Breeds)
Once enrolled in the PAL/ILP program, entering AKC events is as easy as with a registrable dog. The only difference is that instead of an AKC registration number, you would list the dog's PAL/ILP number on the Entry form.

How can you apply for a PAL/ILP number?
Applications for enrollment into the Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege can be downloaded or by emailing [email protected]. When requesting a form via email please include your name and current mailing address. Remember, PAL/ILP numbers can only be issused to AKC registrable breeds.

The following must be submitted with a completed PAL/ILP application:
Two recent and clear color photographs of the dog;

one full front view showing the facial characteristics of the dog;

one view showing the full side profile of the dog standing on a flat surface (not grass).

(ALL PHOTOS SHOULD BE TAKEN AT EYE LEVEL IN A STANDING POSITION,
INCLUDE THE WHOLE DOG IN THE PHOTO. DO NOT SHOOT DOWN ON THE DOG.)



Proof from a veterinarian that the dog has been spayed/neutered.


A non-refundable $35.00 application fee.
Once compiled, the completed PAL/ILP application along with the items listed above should be mailed to:
The American Kennel Club/PAL/ILP
PO Box 900059
Raleigh, NC 27675-9059

Enrollment in the Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege program is not to be construed as an alternative form of registration, but rather, as a listing so that dogs who are ineligible for AKC registration may participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events. A PAL/ILP may be cancelled for cause.

So yes they can be registered in AKC, though not shown say in the conformation ring because of obvious faults.

[ckranz]

No the america Kennel Club does not reconize that. Its not allowed. I had looked it up on there web site.
Very interesting, I did not know UK did. But Gordon Setters are tan and black, not red if red, AKC does not reconize them at all.

Thanks for the information.

Color and Markings
Black with tan markings, either of rich chestnut or mahogany color. Black pencilling is allowed on the toes. The borderline between black and tan colors is clearly defined. There are not any tan hairs mixed in the black. The tan markings are located as follows: (1) Two clear spots over the eyes and not over three-quarters of an inch in diameter; (2) On the sides of the muzzle. The tan does not reach to the top of the muzzle, but resembles a stripe around the end of the muzzle from one side to the other; (3) On the throat; (4) Two large clear spots on the chest; (5) On the inside of the hind legs showing down the front of the stifle and broadening out to the outside of the hind legs from the hock to the toes. It must not completely eliminate the black on the back of the hind legs; (6) On the forelegs from the carpus, or a little above, downward to the toes; (7) Around the vent; (8) A white spot on the chest is allowed, but the smaller the better. Predominantly tan, red or buff dogs which do not have the typical pattern of markings of a Gordon Setter are ineligible for showing and undesirable for breeding. Predominantly tan, red or buff dogs are ineligible for showing and undesirable for breeding.

This is AKC's breed standard for the coat of the gordon setter. PLease note in nowhere does it say that red varieties are ineligible for registration. It says they are ineligible for showing (conformation) and undesirable for breeding...because that coloration does not meet the breed standard.

AKC sponsers may other tyeps of events outside the conformation ring where conformation is meaningless...obedience, field trials, rally, agility etc...AKC registration is required to participate in those events either through direct registration or ILP which I posted above.

[emmabeth]

Ahhhhhh there we go - thats the difference between the AKC and the uk KC..

Here you can by all means show a non standard colour or marking....

If youve a VERY thick skin and dont mind ridicule and coming last and spending a lot of money for nothing.. As far as I am aware theres nothing to stop you but its a fault that would get you kicked out of the ring immediately by most judges if not all.

So i take it in the US you couldnt enter a show? Or if you did youd be told to go home once you got there? (do they check show entries for the dogs colour, im not sure theres even a box for colour on UK show entries).

Ah well either way, Brett - sorry but the AKC would register max as long as his parents were AKC reg dogs, in fact he could be bright pink with blue spots on and both UK KC and AKC would register him.

[Mattie]

I rather fancy a bright pink dog with blue spots on.

[emmabeth]

Ill knit you one (dont hold your breath... my grandma taught me to knit and failed... i wasnt even allowed to knit dishcloths!).

[Mattie]

You don't need to knit Em, you can do something that few people can do, make beautiful things out of leather. That is an art as well as a skill.

[emmabeth]

Oooooh you flatterer (suspect grandma wouldnt have approved... she had basset hounds though so maybe?... hehe)

[brett504]

I contacted the American Kennel Club, and they e mailed me back they told me that they do not Reconize a red Gordon Setter, and nor does the One over in England.

So Max maybe a gordon setter, but neither club reconizes him.