Spouses (big sigh)

[Fundog]

Oh, here we go again! Mr. Fundog disagree (strongly) on a number of dog ownership/training issues. He actually still subscribes quite a bit to the "old school" attitudes of dog ownership: growling/biting at the people in the household is NOT okay, under any circumstances, period.

Here's the situation: We have some issues with Dottie-- when she is in a "comfy" spot, resting, and does not want to move, she will growl or even snap when someone tries to make her move. A common example is bedtime potty time. She will often be curled up on one of our beds, and ignoring the potty call. When someone tries to nudge her to get up and go outside, she growls. We have been getting around this by getting her leash and attaching the leash to her collar, then leading her off the bed and outside to potty. This evening she was under my desk (another favorite spot of hers). The potty call was announced, I even tried to encourage her to get up and go. She was ignoring everyone. My older son came along with the leash, but just as he approached to clip it to her collar, Dottie let out a yelp/snarl and snapped at him. I reached down with one hand and stroked an ear, then with the other hand took the leash from my son and clipped it to Dottie's collar, no problem. He was then able to lead her away to go potty.

This is where my argument with Mr. Fundog started: He is sick and tired of everyone backing away from Dottie when she growls, for fear that she may bite one of us. He feels we are giving her too much power and control. He believes we need to teach her that biting us is never okay. His idea for teaching her this is, next time she lunges up to air bite one of us, to take hold of her by the collar and throw her to the floor. I tried telling him that there are other ways, more positive ways, and that behaving violently will only weaken her trust in us and make her afraid of us. He responded by comparing what I just said to a pile of cow manure, if you know what I mean. I tried to explain that she is not trying to "boss us around" or be dominant. He responded with no, "she is just being snarky, and I won't put up with it!"

So we ended our argument with a stalemate. I cannot convince Mr. Fundog that he is wrong, and I let him know that he is not going to convince me to his point of view; that I do not agree with him. I refused to argue with him further. Unfortunately, I have the early shift in the morning, and I am already late getting to bed. Thanks for letting me vent. If any of you have any ideas for getting through to Mr. Fundog, or even an idea for helping Dottie become more compliant about bedtime potty, please do tell. Meanwhile, I think it might be best if I am the one who gets Dottie to move out of her comfy spots. So far, I am the only one she has not snarked at for disturbing her.

[Nettle]

I feel your pain. I don't know what it is about people that see whatever a dog is doing as some kind of power game. Maybe you should wake Mr. F. when he is asleep and when he grumps, tell him you could take him by the collar and throw him to the floor - no, I'm sure that wouldn't work, but it was a passing thought

Mr. Nettle, and I thought he was pretty much on-side, walloped my young dog when she came back after running off a couple of days ago *sigh* I wasn't there and he'd taken the dogs out as a kindness to me.

[Sarah83]

If this is happening a lot and it's not just a grumble then imo it is something you should work on trying to sort out. Not in the way Mr Fundog would do it though, that's going to end up making her even more likely to bite than she is now. Rupe went through a phase of being reluctant to get off the bed at night. He never growled or snapped, he'd just roll onto his back and not move. So I started working with him on the off command for a few minutes several times a day. Off the bed, off the sofa, off the spare room bed etc. Wasn't long before he was moving without a fuss when told to at night. Have you tried something like that with Dottie? I had to bribe Rupe with treats thrown on the floor at first but it only took a couple of repetitions before he'd do it on hand signal alone.

[***Melissa***]

My husband is fine 99% of the time (in the sense that I can treat the dogs however I want, and he'll treat them how I tell him to), but then there's that 1% where he will disagree with me, and it's impossible for me to convince him otherwise Fortunatelly it doesn't happen a lot, but it's very frustrating when it does! I hope you find a way to overcome this soon - Sarah's suggestions sound really good. Let us know how it goes...

[Noobs]

I like Sarah's suggestion as well. If Dottie is food motivated (which I understand she may not be) it would probably work. Perhaps changing the cue for bedtime potty as well?

Good luck to you. I would hate for Mr. Fundog to manhandle Dottie as he says he will.

[Fundog]

Well, I got to bed reeeeally late last night, since Mr. Fundog simply would not let the argument table for later. He insisted I hear him out. (I still refused to concede to his point of view) He finally told me that if I can come up with another way to get Dottie to cooperate with bedtime potty/moving when asked, then he will try that first, before "alpha-rolling" her. So I really need some ideas here!

As for the luring... Dottie has actually grown a few brain cells! When we call the kids in to our bedroom for goodnight loves (because of my early shift, we often go lights out before the teenagers do), they will bring cookies to call the girls out of our room. It worked at first, but now Dottie looks at that cookie and refuses to budge--- she says they have to bring the cookie to her, because she's staying put, lol. So they bring the cookie to her, let her lick it, then quickly pull it out of reach, enticing her off the bed and out of the room.... but just as she gets to the doorway, she quickly snatches the cookie out of the boy's hand, and ducks back inside the room before he can close the door! She knows if she goes out for bedtime potty, we will close the door and she won't be able to get back in. (Cheeky little b itch!) But we don't want her to sleep with us because: 1) she is a bed-hog, and 2) she wakes me up to take her potty every two hours, whereas if she is out in another room, she can make it at least four, even six hours before waking me. If I happen to have the next morning off, then sometimes we will let the girls stay with us. A lot of times, after the two am potty, they will decide to sleep on the living room sofa (where it is cooler), rather than follow me back to my bed. Sometimes, though, Dottie will follow me back to my room and curl up in my bed again.

[thepennywhistle]

She is a clever one! Until you figure out how to communicate with all parties
involved without Dolly trying to outguess you, you might be able to avoid
confrontation by keeping your bedroom door closed or baby-gated so she
doesn't have an opportunity to settle in for the night. Say, when you
feed the dogs and they are occupied, go and shut the door. Just a thought

Are you stocked up on first aid goodies just in case Mr. F carries through with
his plans and tries to 'get physical' with Dolly? I was told to do similar things with
my Jack Russell terrier back in the 80s, who would show teeth and refuse to do
what I asked of her (such as get off the kitchen counters), and I still have the
scars on my hands from her reaction

[maximoo]

Also block her access to get under your desk. if she isn't in her 'den' extremely cozy maybe she won't be snarky. (?)

Rbt made Max squeal the other day b/c Max was being wild/playing rough/biting him but guess what he riled Max up!!! Max still has "wild streaks" (where he 'zoomies', jumps on furniture, snatches shoes & jumps & bites people)& Rbt has decided to revert back to putting him down & squeezing him. Of course I went ballistic & said just put him in the bathroom (for a time out) no need to do that. He still feels he has to show Max who's boss! UGH!! Max did stop but he was dismayed & panting. poor baby! It takes an awful lot to undo "dominance" based theory in a testosterone filled humanoid. Its like testosterone & dominance go hand in hand!
as soon as Max gets a crazy look in his eye I know the 'zoomies' are coming, so I either shut the door & he's left hanging or he'll redirect himself to hump his pillow. When Rbt messes with him grabbing snout/& ears all hell breaks loose & he blames Max b/c he's a mutt & doesn't know if he wants to be a GSD or a Chow. (his newest theory is purebreds aren't mixed up & crazy like a mutt!)
But thats how a man should handle/play with a dog UGH!!!!! I'M at a loss for words at this point. Sometimes the insanity is just too out there!

Sorry if I'm threadjacking but the spouse subject makes me see RED & I wanted to know that I FEEL YA! (as the teens say today)

[MPbandmom]

I agree, the blocking of access to the snuggy spots sounds like a good idea, although she may just come up with a new snuggy spot. Another option might be slightly shaking up the routine. Victoria sometimes has people do that for dogs with separation anxiety. Like get purse and keys and then sit down and look at a magazine rather than immediately walking out of the door. It shuffles the cues that the dog is used to. Thus breaking the habitual reaction of the dog to a certain set of cues. Of course children and adults tend to be creatures of habit and routine too, so that might be a little more tricky than just blocking the access. And as time goes by, she may adjust to the new routine and then you have to shake it up again.

[Sarah83]

I disagree with blocking off access to the spot to be honest, as has been said, she'll probably just find somewhere else and do the same thing there. It sounds like you have a set routine that she knows and mixing that up could well work. She knows that once you get her out of there to potty that's it, she's not going to get back in there and that's why she doesn't want to move. Well get her out to potty and then let her go back for a bit, even if it's only a few minutes. You could put a house line on her before she goes back so you can move her without risk. Or you could leave her there for a few nights if that's an option at all. Getting her out of the mind set that "well if I move I'm going to lose my comfy spot" may go a long way to solving the issue. How is she at moving from these spots at other times?

[Noobs]

I hate to sound harsh here, but how is Dottie able to "snatch" a cookie out of your son's hand unless he's holding it within reach? How is she able to grab the cookie before she's all the way out of the room so she's back on the bed before you can close the door? Fundog you are far far smarter than this, you are letting Dottie "outsmart" you.

Is she behaving this way any time other than bedtime pee? Does she need a vet check?

[thepennywhistle]

Those little one piece slip leads the vets use are very useful in
moving dogs about, and while you search for a final answer to
communicating with Dolly and Mr. Fundog, one of these might
ease tensions. Let her snark if she wants to, but you can
(or anybody else) can drop the loop over her head and lead her
away without endangering fingers or entering into an argument
with her. Just a thought....

[Fundog]

I hate to sound harsh here, but how is Dottie able to "snatch" a cookie out of your son's hand unless he's holding it within reach? How is she able to grab the cookie before she's all the way out of the room so she's back on the bed before you can close the door? Fundog you are far far smarter than this, you are letting Dottie "outsmart" you.

Is she behaving this way any time other than bedtime pee? Does she need a vet check?

Heh, heh, heh. Yep, probably so. Actually, we have been relying on the boy to close the door after he lures Dottie out of the room. You are correct-- me getting up and following her to the doorway, to close the door behind her just as she is lured out may work.


On the other hand, I may also include a combination of some of the other suggestions of mixing up the routine, and *maybe* restricting her access to our bed. (Not sure yet if that's going to fit in with our lifestyle; we'll have to see.)

Last night everything went fine: We had retired to the bedroom to watch tv before bed. Dottie was invited up on my bed, and she had curled up, perfectly comfortable. When the call for bedtime potty came, I wasn't sure Dottie would go, so I told the boys not to worry about it, and to just leave her be, as I had today off, so did not mind getting up later to let her out. But when they came calling for her, she got up off the bed without any argument, and went out! I guess she needed to go right then afterall. We did let her back in after the potty, and allowed her to sleep with us-- she slept at Mr. Fundog's feet until 2:30 am, when she squeaked for me to let her out.

Okay, I gotta go-- Mr. Fundog is calling me to join him in front of the tv.

[Fundog]

Just wanted to update: Someone (was it Sarah?) suggested that Dottie was reluctant to go out for bedtime potty, knowing that she would not be able to come back into Mommy and Daddy's room. So we've started letting Dottie back in to sleep with us after bedtime potty. When she gives her customary "squeak" to wake me up and let her out during the night, I don't always let her back in then. This encourages her to sleep as long as possible, so she can stay with us. As a result, we haven't had any more "snarkiness" at bedtime potty. Yes, it means I often have my sleep interrupted to take Dottie potty during the night, but so far it hasn't been too bad. Some nights she can make it all the way until 4:30 or 5:00 am--- other nights she wakes me as early at 1:30 am-- but not always, so that's okay.

[maximoo]

Dottie is an adult dog, I'm curious why can't she hold it thru the night? You never mentioned Annie needing to go in the middle of the night