MY DOG IS AFRAID OF YOUNG CHILDREN - please help!!!!!!!

[matina]

Hello to everyone!!

I am new to this, and I am hoping to find answers to our problem, as it seems no trainer can help us on this one... We are the proud owners of a 12month old Golden retriever puppy (Noah) .. He is a great dog, very friendly to all, very happy dog, etc. but... If a child comes across on our dailly walkies, then he lowers his ears, his eyes pop out in fear, he puts his tail between his feet, and pulls me in an opposite direction, as if he has seen "Freddy Kruegger".. I mean.. he is a rather submissive dog by nature.. Thats basically why we selected him instead of his other brothers and sisters(because we wouldn't know how to deal with a dominant dog) and I repeat although he loves meeting new people and falls on his back waiting for them to scratch his belly and he has been socialized, he is (other than that) fearless, nothing not noices, nor thunders, nor fireworks scare him, he has no anxieties, or any problems that we can think of..
But he is absolutelly petrified of children between the age of aprox. 9 months old - 11year old children... which is even more strange!!! With tiny newborns he is cautious, but ok. Our guess is that because he loves to smell pee (i guess like most dogs) and babies pee a lot.. maybe thats why he is ok with them.. maybe not, i don't know... and with children over the age of 11 or at least taller children, he is ok, and with some of them he might even play and run around in the park (very sheldom,, but it has happened)
We have had him all his life and the people who we got him from, absolutelly adored his parents, so this is not an abusse related issue..
We live right beside a pre-kindergarden school for kids aged 2-5 yrs od, and the over last 4 months, he has started to seek to go out in the balcony when he hears that they are out on a break, playin on their garden, and he wants to go out to watch them, and he only comes back, after their break is over and they go back inside... So when he feels he has a distance and he is safe, I could say that he is qurious and maybe shows an interest in them...

I know it sounds really bizzare and weird, but I am really worried, is this something that he will just get over with as he grows older? or is this a problem that unless we deal with soon, it might become worse? I have heard that the main reason why dogs bite is because they are afraid... My partner and I would like to have a baby of own... but I wouldn't dare to do so, unless I was sure that both Noah, and any baby/babies that might come along will be ok, safe and happy.

If anyone has ever had any similar problem, or has any good advice on why he is acting like that , or how we should go on about it, I would be very gratefull to hear it,

Thanks very much for reading this!!!!

Matina

[Mattie]

Is he neutered? If so how old was he when he was neutered?

Many dogs are frightened of small children because they are unpredicatable, this is normal, they do get over this as the toddler gets bigger, 11 is a bit excessive though.

[matina]

hi, thanks for the reply, no he has not been neutered.... how can i deal with his fears though?????

[emmabeth]

Dont let children approach him, and dont walk him around them - but when he wants to see kids running about at a distance, such as going to watch them on the balcony - sit with him and reward him with tiny treats for being calm.

Gradually you can progress to seeing the children a LITTLE closer, but seriously - tiny steps, do not push him at all because a dog who is trapped and scared is a dog who may bite if pushed. Dogs have several instinctive responses to fear.... 'run away', 'freeze', 'fight' and if you take away his option to get himself away (and having him on a leash does this) then it leaves him less options!

Tiny babys are more a curious thing because they dont move so much, they smell REAL interesting and make interesting noises. Its when kids start hurtling about, whizzing around and screaminga nd falling down and hitting and grabbing and being unpredictable that dogs go right off them.

If you handle it right and reward him when he can cope with the sight of them, and avoid him being so close he CANT cope, then the chances are he will grow out of this phase.

[Mattie]

hi, thanks for the reply, no he has not been neutered.... how can i deal with his fears though?????

Often the age the dog was when neutered has an effect on his fears, if dogs are neutered about 8 months old during their second fear period they stay fearful for the rest of their lives. You can improve this fear quite a lot but rarely get rid of it completely.

As your dog is not neutered dealing with these fears will be much better, Emmabeth has given you very good advice.

[jacksdad]

hi, thanks for the reply, no he has not been neutered.... how can i deal with his fears though?????

Often the age the dog was when neutered has an effect on his fears, if dogs are neutered about 8 months old during their second fear period they stay fearful for the rest of their lives. You can improve this fear quite a lot but rarely get rid of it completely.

As your dog is not neutered dealing with these fears will be much better, Emmabeth has given you very good advice.

oh what I wouldn't give for Jack to be unneutered right now. While Jack has improved a lot in the last year, he is easily frightened or made to feel under threat regardless of the reality. I would encourage you to work on his fear issues before you make any plans one way or the other about neutering or keeping him intact.

Start with Emma's advice and post back if you run into any issues or have any questions. tip, anytime while working with him to overcome his fears he can't redirect his attention back to you with a simple call of his name, your probably too close to the thing that is scaring or making him nervous. solution, more distance.

[matina]

oh thank you!!!!!!! thanks a lot, because I was going crazy trying to figure out what I was doing so wrong!!! And you must be right I should have given him more space... Pace myself with him..

Emmabeth thanks so much, your advice on rewarding him every time he watches the little children running around and reward him, sounds very good, and it will do the trick... And I will make sure to avoid getting him into situations where he fees trapped... I have to give him time..

"jacksdad" I am really sorry Jack is suffering after being sterilized.. And I am surprised you mention the element of fear, because as a matter of fact, all the trainers we have seen so far; have been advicing us to neuter him a.s.a.p. (although he has no aggression problems, nor has he ever "humped" anything) on the other hand here in Greece there are so so many stray dogs and cats, can't really blame them for giving that advice to pet owners...

Mattie, Emmabeth, Jacksdad, thank you for your precious advices. I will let you know how it goes!!!

Matina

[Mattie]

Matina, show them this when they tell you to neuter him http://www.sheltieranch.com/articles/Lo ... InDogs.pdf

There is a lot of information on why we should neuter our dogs but very little on what damage it can do, to me it is wrong to give just one side of this, people are neutering their dogs thinking they have all the information and they don't.

[jacksdad]

"jacksdad" I am really sorry Jack is suffering after being sterilized.. And I am surprised you mention the element of fear, because as a matter of fact, all the trainers we have seen so far; have been advising us to neuter him a.s.a.p. (although he has no aggression problems, nor has he ever "humped" anything) on the other hand here in Greece there are so so many stray dogs and cats, can't really blame them for giving that advice to pet owners...

Suffering might not be the right word, but he is disadvantaged when it comes to dealing with scary dogs and humans. Mattie is right about being able to make a difference and help your dog even if he has been neutered. Jack is dealing with situations today that would have caused him to lose it 6 months ago. his reactions are becoming more in proportion to the actual situation, but he is still reacting in fear to some situations out of proportion to the actual "threat". He may be this way for the rest of his life.

A good spay/neuter program is just one part in dealing with unwanted litters. And that is all it will do, address unwanted litters. But when you have to help an individual you can't worry about what's best for the greater dog population, you need to figure out what is best for your dog. And if your dog has fear issues cutting off his primary supply of testosterone probably isn't the best idea. If you do a search on this forum, you will find post after post by people seeking help with dogs that are aggressive, hump, fearful etc and are spayed or neutered. so clearly spay/neuter isn't a fix for behavioral issues. Its only purpose should be for birth control, not solving behavior issues.

my opinion, let your dog finish maturing, address his training, help him with his issues with children, then and only then revisit if to neuter or not.

[Mattie]

"jacksdad" I am really sorry Jack is suffering after being sterilized.. And I am surprised you mention the element of fear, because as a matter of fact, all the trainers we have seen so far; have been advicing us to neuter him a.s.a.p. (although he has no aggression problems, nor has he ever "humped" anything) on the other hand here in Greece there are so so many stray dogs and cats, can't really blame them for giving that advice to pet owners...

Mattie, Emmabeth, Jacksdad, thank you for your precious advices. I will let you know how it goes!!!

Matina

We have been brainwashed into thinking that spaying or neutering will solve all problems with dogs, it is only when you research this that you find it rarely solves problems, only those that are hormone related. If people see and/or hear things often enough they start to think that they are right, in fact in this case they are not, they are wrong.

Yes spaying will reduced the amount of bitches that get pregnant but since we were first brainwashed there are a lot more dogs in rescue now than there ever was so the dog problem is not caused by not spaying and neutering dogs. Some rescue love getting pups in because they are very easy to rehome, most are only with them for a few days and they get a lot of money for them.

Research the spaying and neutering them make your own mind up, don't let others make this decision for you, it isn't their dog but yours. I have a ***** that is nearly 18 months old, she is being spayed on 5th November, a rescue would have had her spayed before she came to me without knowing where in her cycle she was. A ***** that is spayed too close to their season often stays with raging hormones for the rest of their lives, if they are lucky they get an owner who will put up with this but most end up being returned to the rescue and eventually are pts as unrehomable.

[pmcrae71]

I have a 3 yr old min pin, much smaller than yours of course, and he is fearful of any age child. Most likely from his size. What I have done with him is have a neighborhood child come over and we go in the back yard, where is a little more queit, and have them sit on the ground, closer to his level and just talk him and toss treats to him. It only took a few days to get him to trust her and now they play in the back yard several times a week and when we are on our walks and he sees other children playing in the street, he doesn't react at all to them unless they come running up to him, but then I stop them and have them sit down on the sidewalk and most of the time he will approach them with out hesitation. When we are walking and he sees other people or dogs or children and he does not react to them at all, maybe just look but nothing more, I will praise him and give him a treat. Try that if it sounds like something you'll be able to do and see if that helps him some with his fears. Good luck to you...

[matina]

Hello and thank you for all your replies!!!

by Mattie » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:09 pm

Matina, show them this when they tell you to neuter him http://www.sheltieranch.com/articles/Lo ... InDogs.pdf
There is a lot of information on why we should neuter our dogs but very little on what damage it can do, to me it is wrong to give just one side of this, people are neutering their dogs thinking they have all the information and they don't.

That is so true, everybody emphasizes on the possitive aspect of castration, not enough people are out there telling the other side of that story... I don't know if its fear or ignorance that keeps this 'almost like a secret' but the truth is that more often than not, people are almost "bullied" into opting sterilization, (because its considered immoral not to do so, as you would come across as the irresponsible dog owner regardless of anything else really....)

Still everyone is allowed to an opinion, and most dog shelters act out of love, and probably despair, after having seen some goresome situations.... Which leads them to take extreme measures and thus have extreme opinions... I will email this document to all the stray shelters I know,and dog trainerser that adviced me to castrate my dog.... though I am sure, it won't change their minds, I hope at least it will educate them....

In the end of the day

Research the spaying and neutering them make your own mind up, don't let others make this decision for you, it isn't their dog but yours.

that is the best advice anyone can take at any matter...

And to leave it at a happy note, after our last chat, I have stopped stressing about it, and I think Noah picked up on my change of attidute, because yesterday at the park, there was a 15month old girl (in her pushcair) and after going for ever on cyrcles round and round and round her, he eventually approached her and licked her hand!!! I can't describe how excited I was!!! But funny enough he looked as if he was quite proud of himself too.....

Still today when a 6yr old tried to approached him,to pet him, he looked uncomfortable, stepped back, and so I stopped the kid, I explained Noah was just afraid, and asked him to step back and continue his way home past us, calmly and without looking at noah, which (though confused as to why he had to do that, did so willingly). Afterwards we simply left and carried on with our walk... So baby steps... thats ok, mostly I am so glad to hear from all of you guys, because I know now, that there is nothing crazy, or unreazonable, or unfixable about my dogs fears.. Just needs some "know how" handling, patience and his space to do it when and where he feels confident to trust kids...

by pmcrae71 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:29 pm
I have a 3 yr old min pin, much smaller than yours of course, and he is fearful of any age child(......) I have a neighborhood child come over and we go in the back yard, where is a little more queit, and have them sit on the ground, closer to his level and just talk him and toss treats to him. It only took a few days to get him to trust her and now they play in the back yard several times a week and when we are on our walks and he sees other children playing in the street, he doesn't react at all to them unless they come running up to him, but then I stop them and have them sit down on the sidewalk and most of the time he will approach them with out hesitation (.......) Try that if it sounds like something you'll be able to do and see if that helps him some with his fears. Good luck to you...

I have tried the treats, but he is still too afraid for that..... so for now, i am just taking it really slow, when he wants to approach a kid, I praise him like crazy, if he's scared,i just do my best to keep calm, and I walk away, like its ok, he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to, and show him that its ok he is not trapped and we can always just walk away... And in the end of the day, he will have good days and bad days like the rest of us!!!!!!

Once again,

thanks a million to everybody and enjoy your time with your precious pets!!!!!!!!!!!

Matina

[matina]

thats Noah....

[Mattie]

I have tried the treats, but he is still too afraid for that..... so for now, i am just taking it really slow, when he wants to approach a kid, I praise him like crazy, if he's scared,i just do my best to keep calm, and I walk away, like its ok, he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to, and show him that its ok he is not trapped and we can always just walk away... And in the end of the day, he will have good days and bad days like the rest of us!!!!!!
Matina

Well done, it isn't easy to change our thinking for our dogs but you seem to have done it quicker than most.

He is a very handsome boy and very lucky to have you for his mum.

[matina]

thank you!!!!! He is the kindest creature on earth!!! Seriously we are so much happier now and more relaxed on our walks, as I am no longer under the constant fear of "what might happen if...." Thank you so much for heping us communicate a whole lot better with each other, and for showing me how to approach him!!! Thank you!!!!!!!

by Mattie » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:09 pm

Matina, show them this when they tell you to neuter him http://www.sheltieranch.com/articles/Lo ... InDogs.pdf

we went for his annual vaccination couple of days ago, I gave this article to my vet... and she added it on her website ..... Great article! thanks for sharing, very usefull for every dog owner to read...