My other obsession (photo thread!)...

[josie1918]

We have these on the ranch and we LOVE them, they clear out rodents quicker than cats do. They are such mellow, gentle snakes, and harmless to everything except rodents. By that I mean, even when not bred in captivity, but as a wild creature, they are gentle, and can easily be handeled by humans, but you better put them back , ranches have lots of hay, and lots of grain feed in stock, we don't appreciate rodents, so corn snakes are always welcome to stay in our barn. As far as raising mice..................................good luck, turn them loose in your house, pretty soon they will be everywhere

[thepennywhistle]

I think the recommended best way to kill neonates AND adults is by cervical dislocation, however I do not trust myself to do this efficiently and accurately on every single mouse, they are so small it would be too easy to miss, have to do it again, or be er, too vigorous... Soooooo i go with the above methods that to the best of my knowledge are humane, and ill keep researching in case its found that they arent or that there are better ways.

Eww. I had a wildlife rehabber teach me how to do that with mice. I helped feed the redtail
hawk in his bathroom when he was away, and I had to learn how to fix 'dinner' Do you use
the "hold the head down-pull the tail" method? I'd prefer freezing them as well, as I hate killing
things, but popping their little necks was a fast way to do it. I'm still squirming about doing it,
though.

[jacksdad]

Y(And having witnessed someone elses snake killing a live 5 day old 'fuzzy' mouse.... both my methods are a HECK of a lot quicker than allowing the snake to do it!! eeshk I dont want to ever watch that again in a captive snake!)

was just about to ask why not let the snakes hunt and kill their own meals....never mind.

[Fundog]

I remember watching my high school biology teacher feed his collection of snakes-- some venomous rattlers, and a couple of boa constrictors-- with live mice once. It was fascinating. Watching a mouse die a slow and painful death did not bother me in the least. But you can purchase "pinkies"-- frozen newborn mice-- at your local Petco or Pet Smart.

[thepennywhistle]

I remember watching my high school biology teacher feed his collection of snakes-- some venomous rattlers, and a couple of boa constrictors-- with live mice once. It was fascinating. Watching a mouse die a slow and painful death did not bother me in the least. But you can purchase "pinkies"-- frozen newborn mice-- at your local Petco or Pet Smart.

Oogle! Not watching! I got put off watching things eat live food thanks to Wally of Wally's Aquarium.
I happened to be there at the right time, and he invited me (at age 9) to watch him feed the pirhana.
I didn't know what that was or what feeding it meant, but I learned fast enough when he flipped a
couple of goldfish in there. No way am i going to hang around and watch while the snake squeezes
it's rodent to death. I know everything has to eat, but it doesn't mean i have to be there for it

I am very grateful that my carnivores have meals that come pre-prepared and unidentifiable in these
days of convenience!

[***Melissa***]

I have heard about that - where they freeze hundreds of them and they don't die quick. I didn't realise (never given it much thought) that they actually use each other to keep warm. And that freezing one or a few (small) ones will be so quick.

After reading your post, I have to agree with you - your way does seem the most humane option

...*wishing one could get vegetarian snakes*...*sigh*...

[emmabeth]

You would think that snakes kill their prey quickly but much of the time, they dont. Mine are mostly under a year old and the size of prey they are eating is either so small they wouldnt actually fully kill it before swallowing (bearing in mind all the snake cares is that the prey is immobilized, as long as its not in a position to bite back the snake is happy, so wiggling, squeaking etc doesnt matter... down it goes!), or just big enough to hop around and bite back which puts the snake at risk.

Juvenile cornsnakes natural prey is NOT baby mice.. (though if they found some they would eat them) its little lizards (green anoles) frogs etc - but those are not really practical to feed to pets and not at all practical in the UK where they are not native.

Live feeding snakes is not common in the UK and is a very 'grey' area legally as though it IS legal... in certain circumstances it is not (ie if its done for entertainment purposes, if a shop did it in front of customers in the public part of the shop). Live feeding is not particularly beneficial except in the case of severe 'non-feeders' which isnt very common in corn snakes as they are greeder beggars, and theres a lot of other things to try first. All my snakes strike and constrict as they would in the wild anyway, because I make the defrosted mice 'dance' for them (I sing a little song too but you don't need to know how totally crazy i am!).. so they get to recreate some natural behaviours.

So i feed frozen/thawed home raised mice as that sits best with me, morally./ethically etc...

Fundog - I dont mind watching anything wild eating anything else wild and killing it itself.. but I kinda feel, i chose to have snakes as pets andi chose to raise mice... i have therefore created a very false situation here with non-native captive animals.. so I have to do the best i can by all concerned. I have to say, theres been a few mice I bred who were very aggressive, would dive out of their nests to bite me (when not raising a litter either!) when i was just changing the water or food. Those don't last in my breeding program at all and wind up in the Co2 tub quicker than you can say 'Ow you little *&^%!!!!', though not particularly out of 'revenge', but because any extras i keep to use for breeding that end up surplus, go to a pet shop and most do end up as pets rather than food... so it isnt sensible to raise aggressive mice.

I wish I could trust myself to use cervical dislocation as I am positive it IS faster and more humane and im happy enough to do it with large animals such as rabbits.. but convincing a mouse to keep still whilst you grip the tail and lay a ruler over the back of their neck is a LOT easier said than done! It really ISNT one of the things they have in mind to do when you pick them up!

Melissa - there are egg eating snakes.. though they are a bit gross as they regurge the egg shell when they are done.. Not vegetarian, but doesnt eat mammals... garter snakes like fish, and rough green tree snakes eat spiders and caterpillars and woodlice... but those are harrrrrrrd to keep alive in captivity you need to raise your own food for those (im not a fan of breeding mice but theres no WAY im breeding spiders for anything, no matter how pretty it is!).

pennywhistle - ugh to feeding goldfish to piranha.... not only is it unfairly stressful on the goldfish (being dropped into warm water, full of predators) but goldfish are the equivalent to feeding McDonalds... low nutrition (and also full of parasites, though I am not suggesting McDonalds is full of parasites! ) - so whoever you saw do that.. is a very very silly person. (I keep tropical fish too, though not piranha as i dont have the space, they get MUCH bigger than people realise!).

[Fundog]

Hey I used to keep aquarium fish too! One weekend I went down to the local creek and scooped up some water bugs (here in the U.S. we call them "Water Skeeters") and took them home to feed to my tetras, for a treat. Later I had a look, and one of the tetras had a bug leg sticking out of it's mouth. It was rather comical.

[wvvdiup1]

Fundog wrote:

Hey I used to keep aquarium fish too! One weekend I went down to the local creek and scooped up some water bugs (here in the U.S. we call them "Water Skeeters") and took them home to feed to my tetras, for a treat. Later I had a look, and one of the tetras had a bug leg sticking out of it's mouth. It was rather comical.

Now that's funny! Reminds me of someone who finished eating but didn't realize that they had food around their mouth!

[emmabeth]

This is a bit gross.. but...

We have crane flies here, commonly called 'daddy long legs' and they have looooooooooong thin bodies, long thin wings and really really long thin legs. They are also really bad at flying so easy to catch.

I catch them and throw them in the fishtank where my Congo Tetras (not tiny little things like most tetras, these are BIG chunky 4" long jobs, rainbow coloured with teeth you can see!)... live and then they grab them, and will swim around for AGES with bits of wing or legs trailing out of their mouths. Often they scrap over the flies too and the smaller fish fight over the bits that drop off. It is both extremely gross and really interesting!

[Wes]

I think it's the feeding of mice that's the big reason why I don't have a snake yet. I had a pet rat when I was a kid and I don't know how I'd deal with feeding the cute little mice to the snake. I'm heading to a reptile expo this weekend, and corn snakes were on my list of things to ask around about. For right now though, I'll stick to chopping up mustard greens for the dragon.

[Fundog]

Here in the U.S., "Daddy Long Legs" are a type of spider: it has a really tiny, itty bitty little body, and really loooong legs. They eat ants. The bugs you are describing sound an awful lot like what we call "mosquito hawks."

[emmabeth]

Wes - I keep rats and also degus.. i like small furry things and so it was a huge consideration for me and is the reason I have waited so long before having snakes.

I think when you go into it, as I have done, breeding my own mice for snake food, you know before you set out that these are not 'pets' in the true sense of the word.... in the same way that people who raise other livestock know that sheep and chickens and cows are not pets.

If you did only want one or two snakes though, breeding your own mice isnt really practical to do, then its probably best to try and find someone who does raise their own mice, or square it in your own head to buy in pre killed frozen mice.

I find it fairly easy to make the distinction between 'pet rodents' and 'not pet' and so it doesnt worry me too much but the days I have to kill a lot of babies, especially when theres more than one litter to do at a time.. I do feel pretty low and bad for a while, im not immune to that! and in all honesty most of the snake keepers I know who raise their own food are not either.

[thepennywhistle]

It's hard, not getting attached to things in our care. I don't think I could do it, long term, but I
can become protective of a plant in a nursery just because I carried it around for a while, so
detachment is not an easy thing for me

I have friends who decided to raise their own food, both garden and livestock. After a Christmas
dinner of hot dogs (to which the turkey was invited), they are now trying again. This spring's calf
was named Mr. Veal, so they wouldn't get attached and would remember his purpose for being there.
Last I heard he'd grown out of the veal stage and is now a happy, very affectionate steer that
loves peanut butter sandwiches. I suspect he will have a long and happy life, hanging out with
that turkey

If we love creatures, it's never going to be easy for us to kill. And really, that's not a bad thing

[wvvdiup1]

I think that sentiment goes for anyone who has raised livestock since their births in order to slaughter them later for food, Pennywhistle! However, they know their animals are being raised for food for their families to survive, so they also know these animals are not dying in vain. Nevertheless, it is still hard to do this to livestock, but from what I've known from others who are still do this (I no longer raise livestock) and from experience, it teaches you something about sacrifice and survival.