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Lauram
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browsing another forum

Post by Lauram » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:07 am

Hello everyone.

I have had a few minutes to kill so thought for general interest would browse Ceasars forum, its the equivilent to this and i just wanted to see how his methods translate to the masses. I was utterly appalled and have been left feeling sick with anger at the ignorance and incompetance of the people on there.

Initially I was pleasantly surprised and the first post i read was from someone who was using what seemed to be positive methods to train an exciteable German Shepherd puppy and the responses were very much along the lines of what I would see on here, excercise, repetition, consitancy etc. and then as I read on it jut got worse.

One post was from an ignorant puppy owner who was rolling her dog for nipping, its a puppy thats what they do, atleast she was to stop that, then the girl who makes her dog pull her on around on a bike then moans if it pulls on the lead- so one moment pulling is encourage the next its unacceptable, there was talk of 'biting' dogs, don't think they meant with their teeth. I just thought it was awful.

The language of the posts upset me a bit. the talk of making a dog submit and letting it know its place, saying it has a heightened self importance because it pulls on a walk. Part of his philosophy is to prescribe excercise, this bit doesn't seem to translate to the masses. I was taken a back by the attitude of these people to their dogs, i personally would consider something very wrong with a person who enters into a long term relationship and their only goal is to control the other party. Its wrong.

What was so bad about this forum and this whole way of training is that it CANNOT be used by people who not have a thorough understanding of dogs and those that do would probably choose another method altogether. The ignorance is shocking, a 4 month old puppy is unlikely to be aggressive, yes it may be rude and it might make growling noises and bite- puppies do that. I would love these fools to meet a truley aggressive dog and then she what happens.


The main thing about positive reinforcement methods ( other than they work) is thier utter simplicity. Someone who has no understanding of dog behaviour could pick this up in the blink of an eye in its simplest form it is simply- dog comes to you, gets a reward- dog wants to come to you. You can advise the most clueless dog owners to use this method because both dog and human get it. Ceasrs way works for him, someone who has spent his whole life with dogs and someone whos own dogs I read somewhere get 4 hours of excercise a day, of course they are more likely to be calm contented dogs, does calm and contented now equall submissive, but it cannot translate into a training method given to the general public to use on their dogs.

Leigha
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by Leigha » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:27 am

Lauram wrote:there was talk of 'biting' dogs, don't think they meant with their teeth. I just thought it was awful.
The bite they are talking about is taking your hand and forming it like you would if you were using a sock puppet, and quickly "biting" the dog with your hand. It's like a quick jabby pinch sort of thing.

**Please know that I do not condone this or find it useful, just explaining what it is**

thepennywhistle
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by thepennywhistle » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:04 pm

I have only seen a couple of episodes of Caesar's show, but it was like watching a train wreck -- horrible, but you can't quite make yourself look away? At the end of the second show he could't 'fix' the dog, so he traded dogs with the owners -- took the anxious, aggressive, unreliable dog and gave them one of his own. That's his answer? You're dog can't be fixed, so I'll give you a new one? Not acceptable as far as I'm concerned, and certainly not successful at anything other than tormenting that dog.

I have been exposed to a lot of training techniques over the years, but this one was positively alien. It frightens me that he has so many followers. Hopefully this fascination with him will fade soon. I can't see other people being able to duplicate what he's doing with any success, and his followers are going to end up with some very confused, unhappy dogs.

Skye and the white collies

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Emma&Tess
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by Emma&Tess » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:01 pm

How do you find the dog whisperer forum. I can't seem to find it.

thepennywhistle
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by thepennywhistle » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:14 pm

I found this one if you really want to look at it.

http://www.cesarsway.com/

dontpugme
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by dontpugme » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:38 pm

I know the feeling:...frustration...anger.

While these forums were down, i got my doggy fix at Yahoo Answers. I remember reading where an owner had a dog that was scared of him. Someone recommended hitting then yelling then hitting again. They even said, and i'm quoting now, "Use fear to gain respect." :x
--dontpugme

Lauram
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by Lauram » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:07 pm

Yep thats it.

What I find so annoying is that I'm reading ceasars book and some of his philosophies are good, i don't agree with the training methods and I think he has shown a collosial irresponsibility giving his techniques to people who are ignorant but some of his theory is good and actually so far reading the book is not as disturbing as reading the forum, he does not offer any advice on how to deal with problem dogs.

For example in the book he talks about dogs with low self esteem or dogs who have had such a traumatic experience that they are stuck in the past, this was of special interest because it described evie exactly, but no advice on how to rehabilitae them. Only to state they need leadership and a pack will help them alot.

and the on his forum there are people with dogs suffering seperation anxiety and other followers telling them that the only way to cure it is to get another dog!!!! Not revise your shedule and consider whether or not leaving an insecure dog for 8hrs on its own is actually a good idea. For most people, especially those with dogs with issues one is all they can cope with, so why advise getting another.

The one thing he bangs on about more than anything else is excercise, yet most of his followers omit this in favour of quick fix methods.

Also I personally have noticed watching our dogs interact with each and other dogs they meet that they don't do all this 'biting' and pinning business I would be quite distraught if that was normal dog behaviour, they certainly don't when going for walks form an orderly line of descending hiarchy.

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Nettle
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by Nettle » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:05 am

He is so right about the exercise, but people make all manner of excuses to avoid exercising their dogs :evil: It really is vital.

People get hooked on his "quick fix" because they are idle, but they don't ever consider what happens off-camera - they think all the rehab takes place in one tv programme.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS

emmabeth
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by emmabeth » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:06 am

*Puts Moderators hat on*...

Can we keep this sensible (it is so far) and not have folk joining there to have a go as that tends to bring trolls back here to do the same...

If we can keep the discussion about the methods rather than the man that would be best... as they are not 'his' methods in fact, other people have been using those methods for a long time.

Without my mod hat on...

Its scary, how once someone gets into the mindset involved with punishment and dominance based training, it actually shuts their brain down, they are so focussed (the mechanics of these methods mean you ahve to be!) on identifying and punishing unwanted behaviour that they constantly set their dogs up to fail so there IS something to punish, which reduces the chances of there being anything positive/wanted to reward, and almost forces the user of that method down the quick fix/aversive/get more and more aggressive route.

So it doesnt surprise me AT ALL that the good stuff such as focus on exercise and recognising your dogs breed traits and the need to provide suitable 'work' for them to do gets forgotten about.

Im wary about getting all evangelical and 'hippy' about positive reinforcement, but.. since I started training this way ... i started living my LIFE this way. Im not perfect and I f. up a lot, but I am a far more 'zen' person now than I was ten years ago. In fact, don't laugh.. but I was pretty horrible and I was more likely to be banned from a forum than moderating one!

Positive reinforcement makes me question things, question motives, seek to understand more deeply the 'truth' behind whatever is going on. I dont accept, automatically, the initial appearance of something.. I have to look deeper.

Because of that, it is not and never will be sufficient for me to JUST have my dog 'stop'.... stop doing whatever. I need to know hes stopped pulling on the lead BECAUSE .... because hes learned that walking beside me is rewarding, and pulling is not. I need to know my dog is not barking at strangers because hes learned that sitting quietly is rewarding and barking is not.

Punishment and dominance based training stops you questioning things, and makes you think that stopping whatever behaviour from occurring is the be all and end all of the matter. So peoples dogs stop pulling.. that it is because they are fearful of pain doesnt matter. The dog doesnt bark at strangers ... that it is because he is fearful of punishment doesnt matter..

To me these things do matter, and positive training never allows me to lose sight of that.. so what the heck ill be a mad hippy dog girl.. it really HAS changed my life and made me a nicer, smarter, cleverer thinking person. Its opened up my mind and taught me a lot, and on top of that... my dogs are happy, fulfilled dogs who do as they do because they want to.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant

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Mattie
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by Mattie » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:33 am

emmabeth wrote: Im wary about getting all evangelical and 'hippy' about positive reinforcement, but.. since I started training this way ... i started living my LIFE this way. Im not perfect and I f. up a lot, but I am a far more 'zen' person now than I was ten years ago. In fact, don't laugh.. but I was pretty horrible and I was more likely to be banned from a forum than moderating one!
I can remember many of those post Em, I used to be terrified of you :lol: Your heart was always in the right place though, you always put animals first and like me you don't suffer fools very well. Like you I have been banned from quite a few forums for being outspoken. Many people only want to here being told they are lovely, nice, and good, when they are not they think you have made a personal attack. This is why I like this site so much, we are honest in what we post, we say it as it is, we will tell people straight but don't make personal attacks. From the programs I have seen, Victoria is the same but she is also very good to look at which I am not, to old and crinkly. :lol:
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emmabeth
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by emmabeth » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:00 am

You.... terrified of ME... :lol:

In those days though I really did'nt quite 'get' that people on the internet are real...

I do now... :)

And yeah it was Victorias 'tell it like it is I'm not going to just tell you what you want to hear' attitude that drew me to watching her shows also.. it IS very very necessary and boy am I glad shes out there doing that, on tv... Im not right for tv.. I may be young (ish).. but im far too scruffy and spherical for the telly!

My idea of smartening myself up for something.. is minimal dog hairs and aiming for clothes that don't have holes in them...
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Horace's Mum
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by Horace's Mum » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:48 pm

I have a mental image of you as Veronica off Charlie and the chocolate factory now Ems, just after she eats the blueberry thing that makes her blow up :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I totally agree with what you say about positive methods changing the way you see the world. I tend to look on the dark side of things a lot, and worry myself into depression, but since getting Horus I have noticed that I almost automatically look for the positive things in a situation. Once we had got through the first horrific few months :roll: and I started to realise I could understand more about how his mind works and work with him and make life good for us both, it has been a really fascinating journey, and one that we are still learning from each other and about each other. I have been able to cross a lot of my dog training methods into my work with children, and even some of my adult patients respond well to verbal "clicker training"!!

It makes me look at every situation in a completely different way - instead of saying "I don't want you to do that, stop it" I have learnt to say" ok, what can I reasonably ask you to do instead of that, and how do I make it more rewarding for you to do what I would prefer?". BUT this has come at a price, that of getting more and more frustrated with people who are not willing to look further and take the time to try and understand and work with their animals and not against them. But at least I have an excellent example of what can be achieved without any violence or punishment whatsoever - I have a previously highly aggressive and reactive deaf dog who now knows more signs than most hearing dogs know commands, I can have whole conversations with and negotiate with, that I can read so well that I am able to prevent any further mishaps or miscommunications, and if I do miss the sign or choose to ignore it then I know exactly why and exactly what he needs from me in order to feel safe again.

I have also recently read a certain book, and was torn, because there are so many good things that other people have to say, but those are the points that get missed in order to get the "quick fix". At the end of the day, those people who really can't be bothered to exercise their dogs will never do so, those people who WANT to dominate another creature will always do so, but there are many who just don't know any better, and hopefully they will learn the good things from all the trainers, be it CM, VS or any other dog trainer in the world. I think it is rare that someone has absolutely nothing good to offer, our job is to learn all we can from as many people as possible, and pick the best bits, the kindest and fairest bits, and hopefully at the end of the line the most effective bits, to give as many dogs (and any other animal, including other humans) the chance of a happy, confident, safe life where they are understood as individuals to the best of our ability.

Leigha
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by Leigha » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:37 pm

OMG I had this very same thought while teaching today. My bunch is VEEEERY rambunctious now (we have a whopping 44 days of school left), so today I just ignored the ignorable "bad behavior" (calling out, moving, etc--not the serious stuff) and rewarded those who did what they should and wouldn't you know the "bad" kids started raising their hands and waiting quietly. Even my firecracker of a boy (the one I have to bribe with dog pictures) raised his hand today and asked to read a clue to the class because I said "Thank you X for raising your hand, I really appreciate it." After that, he raised his hand to read every time. Usually it's "MIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSS, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK AAAAAAAAAAAAAT MEEEEEEEEEEEEE, I WAAAAAAAAAAAANT TO REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAD" as he's jumping out of his seat.

Anyhow, I ended up thinking to myself--"Leigha, just treat them like you train your dogs. You'll all survive, it'll be okay."

GoofyDog2
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by GoofyDog2 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:54 am

I also follow the "other forum", and although you can get to it from the link posted above, the direct link is:
http://community.sessionswithcesar.com/forums/

Personally I don't find too much there that is as horrible as some make it to be. I feel that the gentlest method that works is the most appropriate. Positive reinforcement should always be tried first, and it does take a lot of patience to be successful. But I believe there are circumstances where dangerous behavior must be corrected immediately, as Victoria herself has demonstrated in some of her shows (including a few recent ones). They have been in the form of non-contact aversions such as a shrill scream or a loud whistle, and also in a more physical way such as putting a dog into a dark fabric crate.

I won't go any further for fear of being banned as was my friend Paul&Muttley for speaking freely. I realize that the rules of the forum dictate that only positive reinforcement may be discussed and anything else must be rejected. But I do think it is helpful to read the "other" forum with an open mind and even participate if you wish to enlighten those who do not embrace the methods of VS. It has been said that you should keep your friends close, but keep your enemies even closer. But please don't look at those who follow CM as enemies, and if you do choose to post opposing viewpoints on the "other" forum, remember to be respectful. Remember that positive reinforcement methods work on people as well as animals, and everyone deserves respect.
GoofyDog

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Mattie
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Re: browsing another forum

Post by Mattie » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:14 am

GoofyDog2 wrote: Personally I don't find too much there that is as horrible as some make it to be. I feel that the gentlest method that works is the most appropriate. Positive reinforcement should always be tried first, and it does take a lot of patience to be successful. But I believe there are circumstances where dangerous behavior must be corrected immediately, as Victoria herself has demonstrated in some of her shows (including a few recent ones). They have been in the form of non-contact aversions such as a shrill scream or a loud whistle, and also in a more physical way such as putting a dog into a dark fabric crate.
First I have never heard Victoria "Scream" at a dog, she does make sounds to distract a dog but never screams. Putting a dog into a crate is different to alpha rolling, shocking the dog with a shock collar, helicoptering them on hanging from a choke chain, these are abuse, Victoria doesn't abuse a dog.
I won't go any further for fear of being banned as was my friend Paul&Muttley for speaking freely.
Paul&Muttley was not banned for speaking freely, he was often abusive to members including me.
I realize that the rules of the forum dictate that only positive reinforcement may be discussed and anything else must be rejected. But I do think it is helpful to read the "other" forum with an open mind and even participate if you wish to enlighten those who do not embrace the methods of VS. It has been said that you should keep your friends close, but keep your enemies even closer. But please don't look at those who follow CM as enemies, and if you do choose to post opposing viewpoints on the "other" forum, remember to be respectful. Remember that positive reinforcement methods work on people as well as animals, and everyone deserves respect.
If only positive reinforcement was the only method to be discussed, why is this post being to continue? All methods can be discussed, it is how we learn the various methods, we need to learn how not to do things as well as do them. What is against the board rules is to recommend any method that will harm the dog or put the owner in danger. Alpha rolling puts the owner in danger especially with big dogs, shocking a dog with a shock collar is abuse because it hurts the dog. If you watch the dog's body language when CM is working with the dogs that will tell you more than listening to him blabbing off.

Goofydog, stop thinking "Them and us", we can all learn from each other including CM, in some respects he has done a lot to help dogs, getting owner to exercise them is a big thing, it is obvious he loves dogs but he lives in the past were dog training is concerned. If he stopped using force he could be an incredible trainer.
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