Rescued Collie
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
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mitz
Rescued Collie
I have a year old collie who we rescued who keeps biting me but not my husband! We have had her six months and she has now started "wrecking the joint". What is the best way to stop her biting me as she has started to hurt. I have tried distracting her but think that by doing that she bites me more because she thinks she will get attention. She is not "vicious" but obviously I want this to stop.
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mitz
Border Collie
Thanks - have tried shouting at her but it can make her worse. If I ignore her she "has a go". Yes, it is more of a nasty nip than a bite. I think she thinks she is "top dog" so I need to work on that. She is a rescue and is more attached to my husband than me as her previous female owner was quite harsh. Perhaps it is just a dominance thing.
I think those reactions are linked with thinking she's top dog. There are basic tricks to getting her to realise that you're in charge, such as making sure that she does not go through doors and gates before you and that she eats after you. If you have a breakfast bar, I recommend that you eat on that while you do so, because 1, your dog is less likely to be able to reach 2, it's much harder to ignore if your dog is high enough above eye level. That's what we did back home, although we can eat at the table without our dog pushing to get at our plates now.
You know, we're only part way through series 1 of IMOTD in Australia, but I don't recall hearing Victoria saying anything about "top dogs" or "dominance".
The narrator does, but not Victoria. Correct me if I'm wrong?
I've heard Victoria say, "if you don't want your dogs to beg, don't feed them from the table" (or words to that effect), then the narrator overdubs with "dogs who are fed from the table believe that they are dominant".
Now, dogs who beg at the table and who are fed as a result will learn to beg more. I can't see how dominance has anything to do with that? Dogs who pick up a disabled person's dropped telephone are given a food reward, and they aren't dominant, are they?
So, if we look at this behaviour for what it is, we have a young Collie, a rescue, who has fun nipping people. When we yell or "ouch" or squeal or whatever the gurus suggest (apparently to emulate a littermate), the dog gets more excited and bites more. I would guess the same would be true if we pushed this dog away.
But what if we were to mark the exact behaviour with "ouch" in a neutral tone of voice, then withdrew all attention - even getting up and physically leaving the room?
Consider that the whole point of nipping and biting is to have fun, and now all the fun goes away when it happens!
Bummer.
Then consider how the young, active, clever dog, bred to work sheep is going to satisfy those drives, that energy, without biting you? Perhaps you could teach her to play tug? Or set up a little obstacle course? Or get one of those bacon-flavoured bubble machine thingys? Or toss a ball or frisbee? Or....
The narrator does, but not Victoria. Correct me if I'm wrong?
I've heard Victoria say, "if you don't want your dogs to beg, don't feed them from the table" (or words to that effect), then the narrator overdubs with "dogs who are fed from the table believe that they are dominant".
Now, dogs who beg at the table and who are fed as a result will learn to beg more. I can't see how dominance has anything to do with that? Dogs who pick up a disabled person's dropped telephone are given a food reward, and they aren't dominant, are they?
So, if we look at this behaviour for what it is, we have a young Collie, a rescue, who has fun nipping people. When we yell or "ouch" or squeal or whatever the gurus suggest (apparently to emulate a littermate), the dog gets more excited and bites more. I would guess the same would be true if we pushed this dog away.
But what if we were to mark the exact behaviour with "ouch" in a neutral tone of voice, then withdrew all attention - even getting up and physically leaving the room?
Consider that the whole point of nipping and biting is to have fun, and now all the fun goes away when it happens!
Bummer.
Then consider how the young, active, clever dog, bred to work sheep is going to satisfy those drives, that energy, without biting you? Perhaps you could teach her to play tug? Or set up a little obstacle course? Or get one of those bacon-flavoured bubble machine thingys? Or toss a ball or frisbee? Or....
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
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mitz
Rescued Collie
As a collie she is energetic and perhaps she bites to make me play more! I will try the softly softly approach and see what happens. As she attends obedience and agility, hopefully they will both kick in and the nipping will stop. Tug-of-war and ball throwing distracts at the time but has not stopped it obviously. Training and playing will continue and hopefully the nipping will stop.
i dont happen to agree with "top dog thing" i think a dog always knows where its bread is buttered and besides we a different species.
try a different noise alot of collies seem to respond to an ah-ah my collie responds very well to OI! seems to work espically well if done in a low growl tone.
also be careful of how u approach her, the dog is on constant alert for danger to her "herd" let her know u are around before touching her.
as with all my comments i dunno if this is the correct method can only say whats worked for me.
try a different noise alot of collies seem to respond to an ah-ah my collie responds very well to OI! seems to work espically well if done in a low growl tone.
also be careful of how u approach her, the dog is on constant alert for danger to her "herd" let her know u are around before touching her.
as with all my comments i dunno if this is the correct method can only say whats worked for me.
I disagree andym. They don't think of humans as a different species, they think of the family that owns them as their 'pack' and the behaviour similarities seen between dogs and wolves prove this. Pack leaders are the strongest male and female in the pack, so if you don't take charge over your dog, your dog will take charge over you and all hell will break loose.
When we got our dog, he ran across the backs of sofas, went for our socks (dirty ones mind) attacked the hand towel in the kitchen and would launch for his food before Mum put it down. All because he thought he was in charge. Dogs are at the bottom of your family's 'pack' and they have no problem with that, but they need to know it.
When we got our dog, he ran across the backs of sofas, went for our socks (dirty ones mind) attacked the hand towel in the kitchen and would launch for his food before Mum put it down. All because he thought he was in charge. Dogs are at the bottom of your family's 'pack' and they have no problem with that, but they need to know it.
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mitz
Rescued Collie
So many differing opinions! She is just a year old (not six) and we have only had her six months, so I should be able to "nip it in the bud" hopefully. I was worried that it was something that would always happen and I wanted to stop it rather than encourage it. She is fantastic with food and never "begs" - she sleeps until we have finished. It is just the nipping and, of course, she is an exceptionally fussy eater! Thank you for your opinions, I will try them out so "watch this space"!
Oops, my bad, I had just got out of a lecture about numbers (I'm studying Japanese from scratch, and I've done a lot of counting work recently, my mind was jumbling numbers).
Anyway, I was using food as an example of the things that a dog might do if it thinks it's in charge. But I hope things go well.
Anyway, I was using food as an example of the things that a dog might do if it thinks it's in charge. But I hope things go well.
not quite sure how the similarities between wolves and dogs proves it 
put a cat in with dogs the cat wont fight for top dog, to me is alot more simple u can train a dog to be good or just as easy can be trained to be naughty begging at a table is simply he got food there b4, getting socks could simply be he was chased when he got them b4.
is all differing opinions tho no one can say right or wrong.
put a cat in with dogs the cat wont fight for top dog, to me is alot more simple u can train a dog to be good or just as easy can be trained to be naughty begging at a table is simply he got food there b4, getting socks could simply be he was chased when he got them b4.
is all differing opinions tho no one can say right or wrong.
[quote="Sam-chan"] When we got our dog, he ran across the backs of sofas, went for our socks (dirty ones mind) attacked the hand towel in the kitchen and would launch for his food before Mum put it down. All because he thought he was in charge. [/quote]
Dogs do what works for them.
It would be fair to say that a good leader makes what works for the dog what also works for them. Your mum wouldn't let pup get the food before waiting, so:
1. jumping at the bowl stopped working for him
2. waiting politely started working for him (he finally got the food)
He might still be running around the sofa, stealing your socks, attacking the hand towels but NOT jumping at the bowl.
Then your mum teaches him that running around the sofa is the fastest way to an isolated time-out in the back yard. But laying on the floor gets him time with the family.
So now we have two problems solved, but he's still attacking the hand towel and stealing dirty socks.
What I'm trying to get at here is that "leadership" is necessary - in that we need to figure out how to make what works for our dogs the same thing that works for us.
But feeding last, waiting at doorways, alpha-rolls or whatever have no direct correlation with any of these other behaviours. Zero, never have and never will.
There may be some indirect correlations when the over-zealous "alpha" causes inhibition and the dog stops emitting any behaviour likely to get him in trouble. Not nice! Wouldn't want to be that dog.
Unfortunately there is a pervasive belief in the dog training world that we need to be "alpha" and that "alphas" do certain things - many of which are not directly related to any particular behaviour and some of which are cruel.
This belief came about from old studies of captive wolves from different packs who were thrown into a situation of, what amounts to anarchy and chaos! Think "Lord of the Flies".
The researchers came up with interpretations of this UNNATURAL behaviour and surmised that perhaps it would be helpful for humans to act this way in relation to the domestic dog.
The first problem being that wolves are not domestic dogs.
The second problem being that wolves raised in their natural environment do not behave as these early researchers suggested!
If you really want to know how wolves act, look at the work of Dr. David Mech.
Even better, look at studies into domestic dogs allowed to establish their own pack.
Rank changes, it is contextual. Alphas are almost universally benevolent and kind. They don't always eat first.
Middle ranking dogs fight, top ranking dogs do not. Fighting and aggression reduce rank.
The strongest dog is not always the "top dog".
It goes on...
If we go back to "Dogs do what works for them" suddenly we have the answer to EVERY non-medical dog behaviour problem; aggression, anxiety, destructivity, house-training, etc etc etc
Dogs do what works for them.
It would be fair to say that a good leader makes what works for the dog what also works for them. Your mum wouldn't let pup get the food before waiting, so:
1. jumping at the bowl stopped working for him
2. waiting politely started working for him (he finally got the food)
He might still be running around the sofa, stealing your socks, attacking the hand towels but NOT jumping at the bowl.
Then your mum teaches him that running around the sofa is the fastest way to an isolated time-out in the back yard. But laying on the floor gets him time with the family.
So now we have two problems solved, but he's still attacking the hand towel and stealing dirty socks.
What I'm trying to get at here is that "leadership" is necessary - in that we need to figure out how to make what works for our dogs the same thing that works for us.
But feeding last, waiting at doorways, alpha-rolls or whatever have no direct correlation with any of these other behaviours. Zero, never have and never will.
There may be some indirect correlations when the over-zealous "alpha" causes inhibition and the dog stops emitting any behaviour likely to get him in trouble. Not nice! Wouldn't want to be that dog.
Unfortunately there is a pervasive belief in the dog training world that we need to be "alpha" and that "alphas" do certain things - many of which are not directly related to any particular behaviour and some of which are cruel.
This belief came about from old studies of captive wolves from different packs who were thrown into a situation of, what amounts to anarchy and chaos! Think "Lord of the Flies".
The researchers came up with interpretations of this UNNATURAL behaviour and surmised that perhaps it would be helpful for humans to act this way in relation to the domestic dog.
The first problem being that wolves are not domestic dogs.
The second problem being that wolves raised in their natural environment do not behave as these early researchers suggested!
If you really want to know how wolves act, look at the work of Dr. David Mech.
Even better, look at studies into domestic dogs allowed to establish their own pack.
Rank changes, it is contextual. Alphas are almost universally benevolent and kind. They don't always eat first.
Middle ranking dogs fight, top ranking dogs do not. Fighting and aggression reduce rank.
The strongest dog is not always the "top dog".
It goes on...
If we go back to "Dogs do what works for them" suddenly we have the answer to EVERY non-medical dog behaviour problem; aggression, anxiety, destructivity, house-training, etc etc etc
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Unwanted Behaviour
I would suggest that you try to assess what is going on within your household and the interaction between family members and your Border Collie. If you do not feel you are able to do this, perhaps it is time to seek the advice of a HUMANE behaviourist or rehabilitator?
Depending on your dogs temperament, there are several ways you can approach this issue. Can you tell me whether your dog is generally fearful, timid, confident, etc? How many family members? Is your dog getting mixed messages from you and your partner? Who is the main carer for your dog? What is dog's age, gender, history? When and where did you get your dog?
Beware of Canine Behaviourists, Trainers or Psychologists who advocate punitive measures. Most dogs respond better to understanding and praise. There are some good books and DVDs around, particularly John Fisher, Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson and Suzanne Clothier.
I can give more specific advice if I have more details, so please feel free to get in touch. I work for several charities in promoting good relations between dogs and owners and helping with advice on unwanted behaviours.
Kind Regards and Good Luck!
Depending on your dogs temperament, there are several ways you can approach this issue. Can you tell me whether your dog is generally fearful, timid, confident, etc? How many family members? Is your dog getting mixed messages from you and your partner? Who is the main carer for your dog? What is dog's age, gender, history? When and where did you get your dog?
Beware of Canine Behaviourists, Trainers or Psychologists who advocate punitive measures. Most dogs respond better to understanding and praise. There are some good books and DVDs around, particularly John Fisher, Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson and Suzanne Clothier.
I can give more specific advice if I have more details, so please feel free to get in touch. I work for several charities in promoting good relations between dogs and owners and helping with advice on unwanted behaviours.
Kind Regards and Good Luck!
I work for several charities, aiming to promote responsible dog ownership and rehabilitating dogs who have been abused, unsocialised or let down by humans.
Was she from a Collie Breed rescue as opposed to a general rescue ?
If from a good Breed rescue they should be more than happy to help you work with her, [ without any dominance stuff or alpha schmalpha rubbish ].
If she was not from a Breed rescue I would be happy to put you in touch with two in particular who would be able to help.
I saw mention of her doing Agility [ was`nt you I saw said it unless I missed it ], but as she is only just a year old she can only be in very early training [ or should only be as training should not commence on equipment until 12 months of age ].
One of the things which can often happen with early agility training is increased nipping, partly through sheer excitement but in collies particularly if herding instinct is strong, out of sheer frustration if the handler is a beginner and not yet able to give clear cues, signals, timing, and appear confident of what they are doing in the dogs eyes.
If thats the case, who is her agility handler ?
If its you, the increased nipping could be partly because of that, trying to instigate more play / training at home as well. If its your OH who handles her, its again possible, [ very likely in fact ], that she is trying to get you to interact with her more as well.
Also, is she spayed ?
If not, hormones could be playing a part.
What does she eat ?
For her main meals and treats, what are the protein, additive and colourant levels ? [ you could just name a brand if she has complete food and that will answer that one for me as I am familiar with most of them ]
Got to say, as an experienced Agility instructor, general trainer, and with vast experience of rehabbing collies and other breeds [ mostly abused ], and having been a rehab volunteer for a collie rescue, as well as having 4 collies of my own, [ plus a Lurcher of Collie and Slauki parentage, collie predominant ], she sounds like a very normal typical worky collie who craves more brain work to do, more mental orientated games, and good consistant, but gentle, *positive* training.
Forget dominance stuff - its one of the most misunderstood concepts going, especially the wolf pack business which was been debunked by the originator of the most well known theories on it. He realised the errors in his original beliefs, sadly too late after so many people latched on to it and still think its current.
If you feed your dog first, let her on the bed, let her go through doors before you etc etc, she won`t start plotting a world takeover bid
At least none of mine have tried it
If from a good Breed rescue they should be more than happy to help you work with her, [ without any dominance stuff or alpha schmalpha rubbish ].
If she was not from a Breed rescue I would be happy to put you in touch with two in particular who would be able to help.
I saw mention of her doing Agility [ was`nt you I saw said it unless I missed it ], but as she is only just a year old she can only be in very early training [ or should only be as training should not commence on equipment until 12 months of age ].
One of the things which can often happen with early agility training is increased nipping, partly through sheer excitement but in collies particularly if herding instinct is strong, out of sheer frustration if the handler is a beginner and not yet able to give clear cues, signals, timing, and appear confident of what they are doing in the dogs eyes.
If thats the case, who is her agility handler ?
If its you, the increased nipping could be partly because of that, trying to instigate more play / training at home as well. If its your OH who handles her, its again possible, [ very likely in fact ], that she is trying to get you to interact with her more as well.
Also, is she spayed ?
If not, hormones could be playing a part.
What does she eat ?
For her main meals and treats, what are the protein, additive and colourant levels ? [ you could just name a brand if she has complete food and that will answer that one for me as I am familiar with most of them
]Got to say, as an experienced Agility instructor, general trainer, and with vast experience of rehabbing collies and other breeds [ mostly abused ], and having been a rehab volunteer for a collie rescue, as well as having 4 collies of my own, [ plus a Lurcher of Collie and Slauki parentage, collie predominant ], she sounds like a very normal typical worky collie who craves more brain work to do, more mental orientated games, and good consistant, but gentle, *positive* training.
Forget dominance stuff - its one of the most misunderstood concepts going, especially the wolf pack business which was been debunked by the originator of the most well known theories on it. He realised the errors in his original beliefs, sadly too late after so many people latched on to it and still think its current.
If you feed your dog first, let her on the bed, let her go through doors before you etc etc, she won`t start plotting a world takeover bid
At least none of mine have tried it
