Victoria vs Ceaser

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doggy style
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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by doggy style » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:31 pm

i have to say when i got my very first dog as a first time owner i called in a dog trainer who suggested a shock collar.i used it for a good amount of time until i started watching imotd.when i heard victoria time and time again repremanding shock collars to the fullest thats when i tossed mine as well.at the time i had no clue how bad they were for the dogs.but after watching all the episodes i thrive on using positive reinforcement.i just wished the show would have came out a couple years earlier.

Momto2ShihTzus
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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Momto2ShihTzus » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:29 pm

mustlovdoggs wrote:
Momto2ShihTzus wrote:
Victor refers to herself as a dog trainer, which Cease refers to himself as a dog physologist, or a dog behavorist if you will.
You sound, to me, like you love dogs. Read what has been said here, with an open mind. Do what Emmabath said, turn off the sound and watch both shows. You'll see a happy dog that is enjoying learning with Victoria and a very fearful dog with Cease. How would you what someone to teach you something? What schooling did Cease get to do what his does? Do you really believe he understands what the animal is feeling? You have to understand what they are feeling to train them. I can not even watch him any more, I hurts me to watch the dogs in so much pain. If you really love animals only use positive training.
Oh yes I do so love dogs. I am soon to be happily divorced and plan to volunteer with as many rescue groups as will have me. Everyone that replied to my post has valid points. And I think both Ceaser and Victoria have valid points in their methods of training. Obviously I've watched Ceaser longer than Victoria as his show has been on here in America longer than Victoria's American based show. LOL no insult to the Brits on the board but I just could not understand a lot of what she was saying on the UK based show due to her accent, and my best friend is from Bolton! I must admit I was shocked (no pun intended) to see him using a shock collor on the dog and kitty episode, and I've see that episode many times. Must have been one of those "out takes". However the level of shock is very mild, such as those emitted by below ground electric fences. Just this week I saw one of Victoria's American shows, where the owners used a shock mat to keep their dogs from bolting out of the front door. Victoria touched it and got a good shock herself, even though the owner said it was on the lowest setting. I applauded when Victoria said that thing was going into the trash! Ok the Super Bowl is starting and Queen Lathitha (sp) is changing how our National Anthem is sung. Do they do that overthere? Sorry for the OT last sentence board monitors. If anyone would like to e-mail me privately to continue this discussion (CM vs VS) please do so, because as I said in my initial post, as a former AOL chat/message board host, I have absolutely no wish to start a flame war here or be labled a troll. Thank you for the insight and interesting discussion.
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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by dontpugme » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:45 pm

I think that if they did a show together, they'd just end up arguing over techniques. That wouldn't be a very good show.

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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by emmabeth » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:05 pm

Change the national anthem? My word no! Oh dear lord no..... nonono... :lol: that wouldnt be British at all! :lol: Its just... well.... its just not right!

Of course, we can do a parody, changing the lyrics to something more amusing, (and preferably derogatory about the politicians and members of the Royal family), but to sing it seriously, and deviate from the standard.. oooooh no!

*Is shocked and traumatised and needs an intravenous tea dosage immediately*:lol: :lol:

Im not actually sure what you could do with God Save the Queen, speed it up a bit maybe? It doesnt lend itself much to 'artistic interpretation'!

Back to dogs and shock collars for a moment though - it doesnt really matter what the level of the shock is, the fact is its unexpected and unpleasant. If you have ever had something painful or even just unpleasant done to you (dentists.. tattoo.. waxing?) you will understand about the anticipation of pain and trying to steel yourself to avoid it. Its horrible and thats when you know it may happen and you know why - imagine if you didnt know, and had to just guess at why!

Very very destructive to confidence and trust! And of course everyone, man and beast, has a different pain threshold and its very very hard to convey to someone how much something hurts, or what it feels like, and have them truly understand because they may perceive the same painful incident totally differently. So whilst something may be a low level of pain to you, it could be incredibly painful for the next person.

Safer all round even before you consider the potential unwanted side effects of such methods, to just not use pain/discomfort/fear in animal training.
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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Leigha » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:11 pm

Off topic again-- Queen Latifah sang "God Bless America;" Carrie Underwood sang the national anthem :)

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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Fundog » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:58 am

Mattie said, "My poor dogs are deprived, I rarely use treats because I forget them when I go out so gave up with them. I do use them to teach a dog what I want, but once he has learnt it, I proof it with praise, toys, play etc."

:lol: :lol: :lol: Mattie, mine too! But not because I forget-- it's because I just don't have enough hands to be able give the treats in a timely fashion. So generous praise and, if I can reach, some pets. Interestingly, that's how I proofed Dottie from chasing cars: no treats, just praise and affection. :wink:
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.

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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Noobs » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:24 am

Momto2ShihTzus, the fact that you are open to discussion shows that you are not a troll, and so far I don't see a reason to take this to private email because I think more people who may be on the fence about the two methods would benefit from hearing what is said here.

It's very common for folks to say "Victoria trains dogs, CM 'rehabilitates' them." I've said it myself (and I'm kind of glad the other forum is gone now so any proof of it is gone). I watched CM longer than VS as well, but I don't watch him anymore. At first I thought that because I love dogs I can watch his show for "entertainment" and play "How would I do it without touching the dog?" But it got to be too much, seeing him "diagnose" underexercised and excitable hooligan teenage doggy behavior as "dominant."

In fact, I want to address your statement about VS and CM having the "same" techniques, and you mentioned VS's "wait" at the door training being the same principle as CM's "claiming the door" thing. I want to point out that it is not the same at all, and here's why:

VS and other positive trainers will tell you that dogs rush doors because they haven't been taught impulse control or manners.
CM will tell you that the dog is dominant.

VS wants the dog to "wait" because it's good manners and safer for guests and dogs who are door-dashers.
CM wants the owner to "claim the door" because it makes the owner "alpha" and the dog should submit to the alpha.

VS trains the dog to wait with a verbal cue and hand signal, so the dog understands he is to wait until the owner releases him. If the dog moves, the door gets shut - so the reward (greeting the guest) is denied until the dog learns to control his impulse.
CM uses body language and that "shhhhh" noise to intimidate the dog into moving away from the door.

VS is teaching the dog what he SHOULD do.
CM is teaching the dog what he SHOULDN'T do.

What's more helpful?

Results:
VS - Dog learns to watch the owner for cues.
CM - Dog becomes frightened out of doing anything and shuts down. CM calls this "calm submissive."

There IS a difference. I think breaking it down that way might help anyone on the fence see that.

CM is right - dogs need exercise and discipline. But any good trainer will tell you that.

Here's a human perspective:

Teaching a child to play piano. If you teach a child one note at a time and go at the pace he's comfortable with, he may enjoy the lesson. But putting a child in front of a piano and hitting his hands with a ruler every time he got a wrong note probably won't help him enjoy playing piano. Sure he might learn, but why would you do it that way when there's a better way?

You're afraid of spiders. So I expose you to one spider on the other side of the room. If you look at it but don't scream, I'll give you $5. I'll bring you a foot closer, if you stay calm I'll give you another $5. I'll bring you closer and closer a little at a time, but at one point it's too close and you get scared, so I take it away and try again from further away, on another day. If we do this it might take weeks but eventually you might be able to have a spider near you without you panicking. You may not love it, but you won't panic.

Now try this: you're afraid of spiders so I put you in a room by yourself and open a box with hundreds of spiders in it. There's no reward for looking at them, I'm just going to "make you face it." What do you do?

That's the difference between VS and CM.

Believe me, it took me a whole year of trying techniques from both philosophies, confusing my dog, clicker training him so he is throwing great behaviors at me when the clicker comes out, but making him afraid of me when he runs down the stairs in front of me by yelling and towering over him, making myself feel like a big bad dog owner because I was in charge. I won't use those methods ever again, and knowing that I used to think like you do, I hope you don't get offended by what I said.

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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by emmabeth » Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:56 pm

That is an excellent post Noobs, excellent!

All I want to add in here, is to emphasise what you have touched on in your post.

When we train a dog, we are not just looking for what works, ie, what stops the unwanted behaviour. We are also concerned with why it works.

That a method appears to work is not sufficient, you need to know why it works, and to have it work for the right reasons, ie without the likelyhood of it either failing, or resulting in more unwanted behaviours, you have to know why the behaviour happened in the first place.

As well as the method being highly likely to work, and unlikely to fail, it also has to be humane, and result in a happy, confident, relaxed dog..

If you miss out those last two points... and you just seek something 'highly likely to work and unlikely to fail' - well you can cure any number of things... by shooting the dog! But as our goal actually isnt JUST to eradicate behaviour but to end up with a happy healthy pet, this isnt an acceptable method, regardless of how effective it may be!

I feel the same way about punishment based training - though in some circumstances you may eradicate an unwanted behaviour using it, the risk of creating a nastier problem is pretty big... and the end result is not what I want in a pet!
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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Momto2ShihTzus » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:02 pm

Noobs wrote:Momto2ShihTzus, the fact that you are open to discussion shows that you are not a troll, and so far I don't see a reason to take this to private email because I think more people who may be on the fence about the two methods would benefit from hearing what is said here.

It's very common for folks to say "Victoria trains dogs, CM 'rehabilitates' them." I've said it myself (and I'm kind of glad the other forum is gone now so any proof of it is gone). I watched CM longer than VS as well, but I don't watch him anymore. At first I thought that because I love dogs I can watch his show for "entertainment" and play "How would I do it without touching the dog?" But it got to be too much, seeing him "diagnose" underexercised and excitable hooligan teenage doggy behavior as "dominant."

In fact, I want to address your statement about VS and CM having the "same" techniques, and you mentioned VS's "wait" at the door training being the same principle as CM's "claiming the door" thing. I want to point out that it is not the same at all, and here's why:

VS and other positive trainers will tell you that dogs rush doors because they haven't been taught impulse control or manners.
CM will tell you that the dog is dominant.

VS wants the dog to "wait" because it's good manners and safer for guests and dogs who are door-dashers.
CM wants the owner to "claim the door" because it makes the owner "alpha" and the dog should submit to the alpha.

VS trains the dog to wait with a verbal cue and hand signal, so the dog understands he is to wait until the owner releases him. If the dog moves, the door gets shut - so the reward (greeting the guest) is denied until the dog learns to control his impulse.
CM uses body language and that "shhhhh" noise to intimidate the dog into moving away from the door.

VS is teaching the dog what he SHOULD do.
CM is teaching the dog what he SHOULDN'T do.

What's more helpful?

Results:
VS - Dog learns to watch the owner for cues.
CM - Dog becomes frightened out of doing anything and shuts down. CM calls this "calm submissive."

There IS a difference. I think breaking it down that way might help anyone on the fence see that.

CM is right - dogs need exercise and discipline. But any good trainer will tell you that.

Here's a human perspective:

Teaching a child to play piano. If you teach a child one note at a time and go at the pace he's comfortable with, he may enjoy the lesson. But putting a child in front of a piano and hitting his hands with a ruler every time he got a wrong note probably won't help him enjoy playing piano. Sure he might learn, but why would you do it that way when there's a better way?

You're afraid of spiders. So I expose you to one spider on the other side of the room. If you look at it but don't scream, I'll give you $5. I'll bring you a foot closer, if you stay calm I'll give you another $5. I'll bring you closer and closer a little at a time, but at one point it's too close and you get scared, so I take it away and try again from further away, on another day. If we do this it might take weeks but eventually you might be able to have a spider near you without you panicking. You may not love it, but you won't panic.

Now try this: you're afraid of spiders so I put you in a room by yourself and open a box with hundreds of spiders in it. There's no reward for looking at them, I'm just going to "make you face it." What do you do?

That's the difference between VS and CM.

Believe me, it took me a whole year of trying techniques from both philosophies, confusing my dog, clicker training him so he is throwing great behaviors at me when the clicker comes out, but making him afraid of me when he runs down the stairs in front of me by yelling and towering over him, making myself feel like a big bad dog owner because I was in charge. I won't use those methods ever again, and knowing that I used to think like you do, I hope you don't get offended by what I said.
Oh absolutely NO offense taken. Sammy, my 2 year old Shih Tzu is clicker trained, LOL when he wants to be. And if that box contains big hairy spiders take it away :shock: Little ones I can deal with but those big hairy suckers no way! I do wish I had learned that Victoria was going to be in Atlanta earlier. That's about a 2 hour drive for me. I would have loved to have gone to see her.
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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by horsefreak88 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:19 am

I may not post very often but I'm here every day reading away :)

That clip with the Shepherd and cat made cry and I had to turn it off. Like many others on this board, I was originally instructed to use punishment (in the form of a prong collar) with my German Shepherd, Annie, for barking at other dogs. Using the prong collar brought me to tears, forcing me to see the damage it was doing to our relationship, and I threw the thing away. While I am very much ashamed to have ever bought into using the prong in the first place, and I've resolved to taking it as a learning experience that will never, ever be repeated.

That being said, I understand that there are many well-intentioned owners out there who have been brought up thinking that these dominance-based methods are for the good of the dog. After all, what do you do when "trainers" advocate such harsh methods? Surely, those who truly care about their animals, when faced with the truth, would see the light of day. But what about those who don't? As a horseback riding instructor, it always amazes me how many people out there (especially in the show world) view there horses as mere "objects" instead of living, intelligent, feeling beings. So long as there are enough people out there that view their animals in dollar signs, I fear that there will always be those out there who advocate aversive methods.

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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by jacksdad » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:24 pm

horsefreak88 wrote: Using the prong collar brought me to tears, forcing me to see the damage it was doing to our relationship, and I threw the thing away.
I think a lot of us have made similar mistakes based on some "expert" advice. The important thing is that we have learned and are dropping the unnecessary/cruel/or infective methods.

My first piece of bad advice was to "alpha" roll my dog. Which considering the source...ok I guess that is what you do to teach a dog who is in charge because "everyone knows" dogs on their backs are submissive....

So, picture a 6ft 230 pound guy "alpha" rolling a 15 pound dog... looking back I can't believe I didn't catch on the first time I saw my dogs eyes. But again these dominance based ideas are so ingrained out there as the way its done. Well not wanting to hurt my dog and him not wanting to be rolled, but thinking this is what I had to do, I started picking him up and holding him like a baby on his back in my arms, with one hand on his chest saying no...making the "alpha" roll even less affective.

soon there after I read "Other end of the Leash" learned the error in the "alpha" theory and my dog has not been "rolled" since.

I later was told I should use a prong collar, I got a lot of pressure from family...the advice came from a trainer, they know what they are doing, they say it doesn't hurt etc, etc. And I mean a lot of pressure particularly since, I being new to all this, didn't really have anything to offer other no, I don't want him wearing a prong. I am still struggling to get a consistent loose leash out of my dog, but I am determined he will learn without pain and while it's taking a bit of time since I am new to dog training, we are making progress.

Had I not been reading Patricia's books like crazy, and finding and spending time on this forum I might have ended up with a little 18 (he has gained a few pounds since the rolling days) pound dog wearing a prong collar.

horse your not alone in having done things to your dog in good faith you later regretted. But we learned and both our us and our dogs are better for it.

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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by emmabeth » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:00 am

I think this aspect of it, is also one of the major things that gets me SO worked up about the use of such methods.

People come to dog ownership generally, wanting a four legged buddy to share their lives with (theres a darker side of the human race that want something to dominate and generally bully, but ... well... seems some of them become dog trainers!)..

And in good faith they go to a trainer or they pick up a book.... and are told to do utterly abhorrent things, and are made to feel foolish and stupid if they object..

People who just want a friend, or who are desperate to get help to fix the issues they have with their canine friend... end up being tricked and co-erced into doing horrible things, things that very often wont work, or will make things far worse. And then if they are LUCKY they find out that all this isnt working or is wrong ... and then they have to find the strength of character to let go of all they have been told before (which is damn hard to do no matter how much you may dislike bits of it) and face up to the fact they may have done horrid things.... and then re-learn a whole load of stuff...

That any 'average Joe' dog owner (and I dont mean that in a derogatory way i mean to distinguish the normal dog owners from the 'supergeek dog nutters' like my goodself :lol:) gets through all this and has a happy healthy relationship with their dog to me, is nothing short of a miracle!

I take my hat off to anyone and everyone who comes here and says 'help', I wish I had had a resource like this 13 years ago, there are things I did then, I would not have done had I had access to (and to be honest, had there BEEN any) sites like this!
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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Sarah83 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:45 am

So, picture a 6ft 230 pound guy "alpha" rolling a 15 pound dog
When I see Ceaser Milan manhandling a large dog I always try to picture myself trying to "alpha roll" something the size of a mastiff. It's just not gonna happen. I seriously doubt I could alpha roll Rupert who only weighs 80lbs let alone something bigger.

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Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Mattie » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:47 am

emmabeth wrote: I take my hat off to anyone and everyone who comes here and says 'help', I wish I had had a resource like this 13 years ago, there are things I did then, I would not have done had I had access to (and to be honest, had there BEEN any) sites like this!
I also take my hat off to anyone who asks for help and for a better way of training their dog.

Barbara Woodhouse was the first trainer who was on tv, she put choke chains on every dog so I put one on mine, but unlike her, I didn't yank my dog to get him to walk to heel, I called him back instead, just couldn't bring myself to yank him. :lol:

What really gets me is owners who say they need a prong or shock collar because they have a very big dog, this is a load of rubbish when you think that many Shire horses can be lead with just a hand on the neck and nothing else. My own horse would do this and was handled by young children without any problems. It is all in the training, people expect to train horses but expect dogs to do it without training.
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