Victoria vs Ceaser

Get to know other Positively members here.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

Momto2ShihTzus
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:11 pm
Location: Alabama USA, soon to move to South Carolina USA

Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Momto2ShihTzus » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:52 pm

I know there are other links on this topic that are locked, and I do not want to be a flamer or a troll. I would LOVE to see Victoria and Ceaser work together on an episode. I will admit that I've been watching Ceaser longer than Victoria, but they
really have some of the same basic techniques. Victor refers to herself as a dog trainer, which Cease refers to himself as a dog physologist, or a dog behavorist if you will. Victoria focuses on the more basic dog obedience techniques while Cesan focuses on dogs, big and little, that have agresssion problems that need immediate correcting or the dog will be put down. While Victoria also works with stronger dogs in their training, I do not believe that they are at what Ceaser calls the Red Zone yet. I would be extremely worried for Victoria, little thing that she is, if she was to take on a, for example Red Zone Pit Bull. However since I have been watching her, I believe she has adopted some of Ceaser's techniques, without using his trademarks, such as "claiming the door" with her wait command, also her "watch me" command when trying to distract dog agressive pooches from concentrating on the dog on the other side of the walk. I believe Victoria and Ceaser both love dogs and would absolutely LOVE to see them do a show, or an episode of a show together. Neither are right or wrong, it's just different techniques. Oh and throw Shorty, the little person, who is comitted to saving Pit Bulls and you'd have a fabulous show!
A puppy is the only love that money can buy
Trixie Koontz

Fundog
Posts: 3874
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:31 am
Location: A little gambling town in the high desert

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Fundog » Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:37 pm

I don't think it's a good idea. They are very different: Ceaser is more "hands on," using more "physical correction" techniques, whereas Victoria makes more use of a dog's personal comfort zone, keeping a respectful distance and gradually asking more of the dog, at the dog's own pace. They also have completely opposite "theories" which would make them incompatible together: CM is promoting "dominance theory," and the idea that a dog wants to "own" his people, and VS is promoting the idea that most aggression is fear-based, and works to build the dog's confidence that his people will protect him.

As for adding in the "Pit Boss," I personally am not looking for "a show," or entertainment. I'm looking for something practical that I can use. My tv viewing is extremely limited due to my upside-down schedule, so I have to use my time judiciously. Victoria is at the top of that list-- the others are not even on the list.
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.

emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by emmabeth » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:06 pm

This is something others have said they would like to see, however if you read Victoria's Statement on the training philosphies for this board viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1341 and take the time to research some of what Cesar does, you will see that he does things that are almost the exact opposite to that which Victoria supports and recommends.


You really cannot use Victorias chosen method, positive reinforcement, along side Cesars chosen method, positive punishment.

Positive reward has the effective not just increasing the frequency of a behaviour (dog gets rewarded for sitting, dog is then more likely to sit), but used the way Victoria and a great many other forward thinking, up to date trainers use it, it encourages the dog to try out new behaviour, seek out new ways of earning the reward, working with the owner.

Positive punishment decreases the frequency of a behaviour (dog gets a leash pop to the neck for looking at another dog, dog is less likely to look at another dog), but it also... reduces the trust between dog and owner. It reduces the desire to try out new behaviour because the dog is, instead of actively seeking to earn reward, hes actively seeking to AVOID punishment.

You cannot do both at the same time, you cannot try to experiment and find out what works, if you are also trying to avoid being punished. One prevents the other from occuring.

Though they both may use words that are the same, the technique behind something is very different.

For example the 'watch me' when working with a dog who is dog aggressive.

Victoria first assesses the dog and tries to stay far enough away from the stooge dog that there will be no reaction or very little reaction. This is because once a dog IS reacting badly, he cannot learn well, he cannot listen and respond to a trainer. The stress levels are too high and once a dog is freaking out, he's gone beyond the point of being able to listen.

The good, thinking trainer here, in this situation, ignores the behaviour and removes the dog from the situation because the dog can and will only learn 'bad' things here. (IE his fears are reinforced).

You don't try to train anything when a dog is freaking out, its not the time or place. Instead YOu learn that this was a step too close, and you back off, refocus and start again further away.

The idea is and what Victoria tries to achieve, is to have the dog see the other dog but feel sufficiently calm that he does NOT need to react. He can then be rewarded, increasing his confidence in the handler and in himself. Once he begins to associate the sight of other dogs with being calm, confident and rewarded, he can be brought a little nearer.

So over the course of a few days for some dogs, or a few weeks or even months for others - you gradually change the dogs association with other dogs, from fear and needing to react, to a calm, relaxed dog keen to respond to his owner because this is rewarding.

What trainers like Cesar do, is to force the situation - make the dog confront the other dog, punish him severely if he reacts, until the dog fears the handler more than the other dog. The long term effects of training like this are not good, if the dog finds itself in a situation he cant handle and with a trainer he fears less.... he will still react, if someone tries to physically handle the dog to prevent escape or remove him from the situation the chances of redirected aggression are much much higher. So the dog might well behave for the trainer - but what about when the trainer is gone, and the 13 year old daughter takes the dog for a walk.... shes likely to get bitten following Cesars advice. Shes not likely to get bitten following Victorias!

Try watching a range of dog training shows with the sound off, so you don't have the words.

Look at the dogs, can you see what their body language is saying? Are they panting, are they tense, are they strung up on a tight leash, look for dogs turning their heads away, little licks to the nose, look at the corners of the mouth...

Their body language will tell you whats going on, what the humans are saying is another matter.

I often see dogs labelled as one thing that are not that thing at all. Dogs labelled 'red zone' - what does this even mean? Is this behaviour based in fear? In stress? In pain? In frustration?...

Cesar wont tell you - or if he does he will claim that it is about dominance. Neither 'red zone' nor 'dominance' are useful in solving the root cause of the behavioural problem. Understanding not just what the behaviour is, but WHY it is happening, what has caused it to happen, means we can fix that... and the problem stops happening.

Simply preventing by the use of fear and punishment, the behaviour from occurring, doesnt treat the root cause, no more than the sticking plaster 'cures' the infected wound. Its just covering it up, if the underlying problem.... the cause of the behaviour, the infection in the wound, are not dealt with... then when that plaster peels off..... the problem is still there, potentially its worse!

Have a look here http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/index.php, read through the pages on that website and take a look at the various organisations from across the world that strongly oppose training methods such as those Cesar uses. They explain in more detail some of the issues surrounding it.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant

User avatar
forkin14
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:21 pm
Location: Danville, VA / Foxboro, MA
Contact:

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by forkin14 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:57 pm

You know, I wish there was a website dedicated to the people that have been "helped" by Victoria or Cesar by their TV shows to confirm or deny whether or not either actually helped their dog in the long wrong. But, they most likely sign something agreeing to not discuss such things after the show has been filmed (maybe?). I'm sure that more people have issues with their dogs after Cesar gets through with them! I thought that fool was off TV but I guess not..

sj96skittles
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:38 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by sj96skittles » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:02 pm

honestly i dont like cesar millan's method of training at all. i like victoria's methods a LOT better, but it would be interesting to see them do a show together.

emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by emmabeth » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:40 am

I DO know that one dog featured on his show, Cotton the American Eskimo (?) dog, got worse and went on to have his teeth filed down so he couldnt hurt anyone. I don't actually know if his original problem was biting, I believe he was extremely barky and this was originally why he had been kept in a crate in the owners garage...

He is definately not off the TV.... in fact next month he starts his UK tour... all round the UK, demonstrating his methods. Hopefully, we will get a good, unbiased report as to how the shows go, as I do know one or two people who are going to see him (not because they like him!).

I can't speak for Victoria (and I suspect she has far greater self control than I), but I could not be in the same room as the man and allow him to use the methods he does on any animal. I just couldn't. That is how strongly I feel about the things he does and what they actually do to dogs. For me, personally... to appear alongside him and witness him doing the abhorrent things he does to dogs, without stepping in and stopping him, would be as if I was condoning what he does. I just don't, I can't - no more than I could stand by and watch someone bully and intimidate another human.

If it makes it clear how strongly I oppose the methods Cesar uses (and lets be clear here, they are NOT 'his' methods they are methods that have been around for donkeys years and were no more 'correct' or 'right' then than they are now).... I would not allow him or ANYONE using those methods to come within 10 feet of any of my animals. I would hand any one of my dogs to Victoria in a heartbeat!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant

User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Mattie » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:51 am

There is no comparison between CM and Victoria, watch their body language, CM makes himself as big as possible, stands tall, stands over the dog and looks aggressive, he also uses force to get the dogs under control. Victoria keeps her body language soft and none threatening, working within the dog’s comfort zone. I know that at times I have joked on here about men using brawn and women brains but in this case, it is true, CM uses his brawn, Victoria her brains. Most women don’t have the strength to use brawn so we have to think of different ways to get things done, our brains.

A good dog trainer also understands behaviour, a good behaviourist also understands how dogs learn, by saying he isn’t a trainer he is admitting that he doesn’t understand how dogs learn nor about the principles of training. Anyone can call themselves a physologist or behaviourist but it takes a lot of understanding of dogs to turn them round the way Victoria does.

The red zone never existed until CM came along, having had a dog that was every bit as aggressive as the dogs that CM deals with, I can assure you that his methods don’t stay mended, all they do is shut the dog down because he can’t cope. A dog that shuts down is dangerous, one day he will come out of that and be more dangerous as in the case of Cotton. CM tried to cure Cotton, according to what was shown he did yet he has become much worse and now has had his teeth filed down so he can’t do any harm when he bites.

I know with my own very aggressive dog that the only way you can turn a dog like her round is by positive methods, 99% of aggression is fear, according to CM all the dogs are dominant aggressive but he has this wrong. Dominant aggression is the handler using aggression to solve a problem, it is CM that is dominant aggressive not the dogs. Dominant dogs are not aggressive, they don’t need to be, this shows CM’s lack of knowledge of dogs.

From what I have seen about CM it is him starting to use more positive methods by using wait command and “Watch Me”, both I have been using a lot longer than CM has been on the tv. I don’t call it claiming the door because there is a lot more to it than this, the “Wait” command will work anywhere not just at a door.

I have never known Victoria to attempt to fool the people watching her programs, CM does, he has had a shock collar on a dog and it wasn’t mentioned in the program but when you look closely you can see the collar and the remote with him pressing it.
Have a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvr8tQh ... r_embedded

CM doesn’t understand a dog’s body language, thankfully more and more people are learning how to understand what dogs are telling us and thanks to the internet pet owners like me can learn about this as well. There is some good information on body language in viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2959 There are clips from a lecture given by Jean Donaldson on reading dogs body language, I found it very interesting and informative, I learnt a lot from it. If you watch CM with the sound down and try to read what the dogs are telling him, then watch it with the sound up, you will find that what you saw was different to what he is telling the owners.

Every trainer, behaviourist and owner is changing all the time as they get more experience, I know I have changed a lot and I have seen Victoria change as well. Some of her first programs on tv I was screaming at the tv, but never screamed at her they way I scream at CM. Victoria has also said on this forum that there are methods she used then that she wouldn’t use now, I admire her for admitting that.

I wrote a little about dog aggression for a Staffy forum, some of the owners were having problems with their dogs, this helped these owners to understand what was happening with their dogs, I will put it up in another thread so everyone can comment on it. Everyone has different ideas so it would be interesting to me to see what others think as I am not an expert.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]

User avatar
forkin14
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:21 pm
Location: Danville, VA / Foxboro, MA
Contact:

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by forkin14 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:20 am

Wow. I watched the clip of the poor dog getting shocked. It's unbelievable that people would want him doing this to their dogs. Even my dog-illiterate boyfriend could tell he was pushing the dogs to the edge and making them react due to stress and fear. After watching that clip, it showed another one with him using a choke collar on a Malamute )at least that is what I think he said..). They were walking fine and then out of nowhere, Cesar KICKS the dog in the rear to get the dog freaking out and lunging at him. After a few minutes of the dog defending itself against the idiot that kicked him, which Cesar took as the dog trying to be "dominant", the dog literally collapsed onto the pavement, which was the dog "calming down and being submissive". I don't think anyone could watch that and not realize the dog went to the ground due to being choked. It is unreal to listen to him talk about dog behavior. Now I'm no trainer, dog expert, behaviorist etc. I really knew nothing about dogs until we got Cadence and I started reading up as much as I could on here and books. But even I can tell that what he is saying is completely outrageous.

Maybe I'll fake a "cry for help" to him and let him have it when he gets to my house! :P Just kidding obviously.. haha

Leigha
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:02 am

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Leigha » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:52 am

Poor babies.

User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Mattie » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:38 am

forkin, I cried when I saw that clip.

At one time it was common practice to "swing" foals to teach them that they can't get away from a lead rope, to do this they would put a haltie instead of a headcollar, halties are webbing that tightens up unless you put a knot in them, these were on without the knot. The would "Encourge" the foal to try and get out of it by throwing itself around, many got injured falling on the ground or damaged their necks. When I first moved to Yorkshire in 1975 it was still common practice and I was told to do this with my 2 year old gelding. I refused, Tumbleweed had been taught to walk on a headcollar with positive methods, he never pulled, never played up on it, and was so well trained that he didn't need a headcollar and rope on. When they saw this, they started to change their minds about "Swinging" the foals.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]

Fundog
Posts: 3874
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:31 am
Location: A little gambling town in the high desert

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Fundog » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:26 am

Admittedly, Cesar does have his place. I used to visit another forum (specifically for hunters with bird dogs), and tried to get those idiots to consider positive methods, rather than shock collars and ear pinching. Instead, the unanimous response I got was, "I don't want my dog to obey because he's trying to earn a reward. I want him to obey because I'm the boss." It is unfortunate that there are still hard-headed people out there, raising dogs. But as long as there are, then people like Cesar will continue to have fame and fortune, and dogs like my Dottie will continue to be abused, and fail to reach their full potential.
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.

User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Mattie » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:56 am

Fundog wrote:Admittedly, Cesar does have his place. I used to visit another forum (specifically for hunters with bird dogs), and tried to get those idiots to consider positive methods, rather than shock collars and ear pinching. Instead, the unanimous response I got was, "I don't want my dog to obey because he's trying to earn a reward. I want him to obey because I'm the boss."

I never know whether to laugh at this attitude or cry, the won't work because they have a boss, they want wages, but they expect a dog to. It also shows how ignorant they are on training methods and their lack of understanding of the principles of training.

My poor dogs are deprived, I rarely use treats because I forget them when I go out so gave up with them. I do use them to teach a dog what I want, but once he has learnt it, I proof it with praise, toys, play etc.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]

dontpugme
Posts: 1294
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:01 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by dontpugme » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:55 pm

I think a good collaboration show would be like supernanny+it's me or the dog....a family with naughty dogs, naughty kids, and naughty parents/owners.

User avatar
Horace's Mum
Posts: 1129
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:10 pm

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by Horace's Mum » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:57 pm

:lol: :lol: We used to have IMOTD followed immediately by Supernanny, I remember thinking that it was always more or less the same program but with different participants!!

mustlovdoggs
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:24 pm
Location: Nashville,Tn.USA

Re: Victoria vs Ceaser

Post by mustlovdoggs » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:38 pm

Momto2ShihTzus wrote:
Victor refers to herself as a dog trainer, which Cease refers to himself as a dog physologist, or a dog behavorist if you will.
You sound, to me, like you love dogs. Read what has been said here, with an open mind. Do what Emmabath said, turn off the sound and watch both shows. You'll see a happy dog that is enjoying learning with Victoria and a very fearful dog with Cease. How would you what someone to teach you something? What schooling did Cease get to do what his does? Do you really believe he understands what the animal is feeling? You have to understand what they are feeling to train them. I can not even watch him any more, I hurts me to watch the dogs in so much pain. If you really love animals only use positive training.
I wished I was the person my dogs thinks I am.

Post Reply