Oprah's vet says that a if a female dog is desexed before she goes into heat for the first time, her risk of getting breast cancer is reduced by 98%.
I thought this was astounding.
Reducing a female dog's risk of breast cancer by 98%
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Mmm.
Did the vet really say cancer. Or did they say 'mammary tumours'.
Tumours are just growths, they may or may not be cancerous - prepubertal spaying may lessen the risk of a ***** developing mammary tumours.
However, prepubertal spaying may increase the risk of urinary incontinence, urinary infection (as you remove the hormones pre sexual maturation, the genitals stop developing causing smaller vulvas whicha re prone to infection).
Pre-pubertal spaying has an effect on bone growth. Each of the long bones in a dogs body has a growth plate, they close at different times during the dogs life, they do NOT close at the same time, and de sexing before a dog has finished growing means growth plates that havent closed will take longer to close thn they would naturally. If that happens in the legs, where one bone is done but the other isnt, you can get twisting of limbs. This can then cause muscle problems and it is thought to lead to bone density issues as well.
There is also the mental effects. Remove the ability to mature sexually and a lot of dogs are stuck as puppies which inhibits their ability to act like adult dogs, the way other dogs interact them can change too, the dog behaves and thinks like a puppy but looks like an adult dog and doesnt get the leeway with behaviour that one adult would normally give a pup.
I believe that our dogs are at risk from cancer, cancer of skin, lungs, liver...... everywhere really. I wouldnt advise lopping off limbs to prevent bone cancer from getting a chance to occur!
I dont think the benefits of spaying early outweigh downsides of it. I prefer to wait until the ***** is sexually mature (and of course this differs from breed to breed and in each breed, from dog to dog) and then spay. My reasons for spaying are primarily to prevent pyometra, and secondarily to prevent unwanted pregnancy.
If your reasons for spaying are NOT those but behavioural or for some supposed medical benefit ie lowering risk of cancer, then id advise you to think agian.
Oh, adn the ONLY awy to PREVENT mammary cancer is to remove the mammary glands completely.
Em
Did the vet really say cancer. Or did they say 'mammary tumours'.
Tumours are just growths, they may or may not be cancerous - prepubertal spaying may lessen the risk of a ***** developing mammary tumours.
However, prepubertal spaying may increase the risk of urinary incontinence, urinary infection (as you remove the hormones pre sexual maturation, the genitals stop developing causing smaller vulvas whicha re prone to infection).
Pre-pubertal spaying has an effect on bone growth. Each of the long bones in a dogs body has a growth plate, they close at different times during the dogs life, they do NOT close at the same time, and de sexing before a dog has finished growing means growth plates that havent closed will take longer to close thn they would naturally. If that happens in the legs, where one bone is done but the other isnt, you can get twisting of limbs. This can then cause muscle problems and it is thought to lead to bone density issues as well.
There is also the mental effects. Remove the ability to mature sexually and a lot of dogs are stuck as puppies which inhibits their ability to act like adult dogs, the way other dogs interact them can change too, the dog behaves and thinks like a puppy but looks like an adult dog and doesnt get the leeway with behaviour that one adult would normally give a pup.
I believe that our dogs are at risk from cancer, cancer of skin, lungs, liver...... everywhere really. I wouldnt advise lopping off limbs to prevent bone cancer from getting a chance to occur!
I dont think the benefits of spaying early outweigh downsides of it. I prefer to wait until the ***** is sexually mature (and of course this differs from breed to breed and in each breed, from dog to dog) and then spay. My reasons for spaying are primarily to prevent pyometra, and secondarily to prevent unwanted pregnancy.
If your reasons for spaying are NOT those but behavioural or for some supposed medical benefit ie lowering risk of cancer, then id advise you to think agian.
Oh, adn the ONLY awy to PREVENT mammary cancer is to remove the mammary glands completely.
Em
Listen to it for yourself.emmabeth wrote:Mmm.
Did the vet really say cancer. Or did they say 'mammary tumours'.
Em
Go to http://www.oprah.com/tows/after/200505/ ... 0509.jhtml
Click on the WATCH NOW button for the video
THE DOG WHISPERER HELPS OPRAH AND STEDMAN
Does your dog get "that loving feeling" with strangers' legs? Get tips on curbing bad dog behavior
Listen for this: "We know scientifically that if you [neuter or] spay a female before their first heat, you reduce the incidence of breast cancer by 98% " , spoken by Dr Rubin (or Reubin, can't quite hear the vet's name). He is in the audience.
Oprah's show was about Cesar Millan, the 'Dog Whisperer' and at the end of the show they had further discussions.
Havent watched - cant stand Cesar Milan for a start....
Try reading this http://www.caninesports.com/EarlySpayConsiderations.pdf
Note where it says that only 30% of mammary cancers are malignant, and if you check your dog frequently and have asked what to look for they can be removed (in an op that is less major than a spay, and has no unwanted side effects that spaying has).
Im not saying NEVER neuter your dog, im saying do so for the right reasons and to my mind, reducing the liklyhood of cancer is not the right reason.
If it was so desperately important that we prevent breast cancer in bitches then it would be common practice to have their mammary glands removed completely - something which is only done in dogs who already HAVE multiple cancerous lumps.
Em
Try reading this http://www.caninesports.com/EarlySpayConsiderations.pdf
Note where it says that only 30% of mammary cancers are malignant, and if you check your dog frequently and have asked what to look for they can be removed (in an op that is less major than a spay, and has no unwanted side effects that spaying has).
Im not saying NEVER neuter your dog, im saying do so for the right reasons and to my mind, reducing the liklyhood of cancer is not the right reason.
If it was so desperately important that we prevent breast cancer in bitches then it would be common practice to have their mammary glands removed completely - something which is only done in dogs who already HAVE multiple cancerous lumps.
Em
Well, that is why I wanted you to watch the short video. It wasn't all about Cesar Milan, it was the vet that I wanted you to listen to.emmabeth wrote:Havent watched - cant stand Cesar Milan for a start....
Try reading this http://www.caninesports.com/EarlySpayConsiderations.pdf
Note where it says that only 30% of mammary cancers are malignant, and if you check your dog frequently and have asked what to look for they can be removed (in an op that is less major than a spay, and has no unwanted side effects that spaying has).
Im not saying NEVER neuter your dog, im saying do so for the right reasons and to my mind, reducing the liklyhood of cancer is not the right reason.
If it was so desperately important that we prevent breast cancer in bitches then it would be common practice to have their mammary glands removed completely - something which is only done in dogs who already HAVE multiple cancerous lumps.
Em
Someone in the audience asked if it were true that neutered dogs were less aggressive, and it was confirmed that it was true. Then Oprah raised the issue about how important it was to neuter dogs anyway because there are so many unwanted dogs around, and I share her views entirely on that point. I personally feel strongly that all dogs should be neutered unless the owners have a special licence. Where I live, it only costs slightly more to register a dog that has not been neutered, and I feel there isn't enough incentive to encourage owners to neuter their dogs.
A few years ago, a dog living further down the street was always running away from his home and coming to my house to visit my spayed dog. The owners finally had him neutered, and after a period of time, he stopped running away. But it is amazing he wasn't run over because he would run all over the street. The neutering, I believe, saved his life.
My heart breaks to know how many dogs are unwanted and end up being illtreated and abandoned and finally put to sleep because they should have never been born in the first place.
Anyway, those were the main issues raised, and the vet in the audience simply added that a female that has been spayed also has a 98% risk reduction in breast cancer. It was never given as the sole reason for spaying. I brought the breast cancer issue here because I was astounded to hear the stats.
Ah, fairynuff, ill give it a watch later...
The thing with the breast cancer stats is they arent quite as good as you think. The study showing the 98% reduction is qutie flawed adn was done on a RIDICULOUSLY small study group of i believe around 60 dogs which is no where NEAR enough for a reliable result.
I dont disagree that neutering for prevention of unwanted pups is very very valid and i think all rescues and shelters should insisst up on it, but i DONT think they should insist upon it at such a young age.
For instance - my first ***** was a tiny crossbreed terrier, she came into season at 7 months and was fully grown and mature at 18 months old.
My next one will be a scottish deerhound, and THAT will NOT be anywhere near her first season at 6 months, in fact more like 12 - 18 months, and wont be mature until 3 yaers old or more.
Surely youd agree that neutering a pup like the deerhound at 6 months is going to have some serious side effects on her growth and ability to mature. Yet loads of people are telling me that it would have no effect whatsoever! (fortunately i nkow it will and i wont be doing it).
I do disagree with neutering to prevent aggression. Its widely known that spaying an aggressive ***** will INCREASE the aggression, neutering a fear aggressive dog will often increase that too as the aggressioni present stems from lack of confidence. Testosterone has a marked effect on a dogs confidence and removal of it and the sudden drop in testosterone levels can cause fearful behaviour in even previously confident young dogs (as happened to ne of mine, hes now horribly fear aggrsesive and cannot be trusted with a lot of other dogs, usually small males).
I just want anyone who is planning on having their dog neutered to be CMOPLETELY aware of the facts and issues surrounding it. If you want yoru dog done to prevent wandering, be aware that it may well NOT stop this at all (that is a training issue, it can also be solved by decent fencing!), it may well not stop humping and scent marking (neither being purely sexual behaviours).
It certainly hasnt stopped my boy from being sufficiently itnerested in bitches in heat to mate and tie with them!
Lopping off testicles is ONLY guaranteed to do two things. Prevent testicular cancer (cant get cancer of testicles you dont have), prevent the dog getting a ***** pregnant (but only safe after around 2 months AFTER castration as it can take some time for sperm remaning in the body to die).
Spaying bitches will ONLY guarantee you : No pregnancy, No pyometra.
EVERY other supposed benefit from castration/neutering is just a possibility, not a definate, and there ARE side effects - some serious, some not but if you arent prepared for any of them and believe the old claptrap about 'neutering your dog will not change him and has no bad side effects at all' you may WELL, as i was, be in for a huge shock and may not be prepared to deal with it at all.
Em
The thing with the breast cancer stats is they arent quite as good as you think. The study showing the 98% reduction is qutie flawed adn was done on a RIDICULOUSLY small study group of i believe around 60 dogs which is no where NEAR enough for a reliable result.
I dont disagree that neutering for prevention of unwanted pups is very very valid and i think all rescues and shelters should insisst up on it, but i DONT think they should insist upon it at such a young age.
For instance - my first ***** was a tiny crossbreed terrier, she came into season at 7 months and was fully grown and mature at 18 months old.
My next one will be a scottish deerhound, and THAT will NOT be anywhere near her first season at 6 months, in fact more like 12 - 18 months, and wont be mature until 3 yaers old or more.
Surely youd agree that neutering a pup like the deerhound at 6 months is going to have some serious side effects on her growth and ability to mature. Yet loads of people are telling me that it would have no effect whatsoever! (fortunately i nkow it will and i wont be doing it).
I do disagree with neutering to prevent aggression. Its widely known that spaying an aggressive ***** will INCREASE the aggression, neutering a fear aggressive dog will often increase that too as the aggressioni present stems from lack of confidence. Testosterone has a marked effect on a dogs confidence and removal of it and the sudden drop in testosterone levels can cause fearful behaviour in even previously confident young dogs (as happened to ne of mine, hes now horribly fear aggrsesive and cannot be trusted with a lot of other dogs, usually small males).
I just want anyone who is planning on having their dog neutered to be CMOPLETELY aware of the facts and issues surrounding it. If you want yoru dog done to prevent wandering, be aware that it may well NOT stop this at all (that is a training issue, it can also be solved by decent fencing!), it may well not stop humping and scent marking (neither being purely sexual behaviours).
It certainly hasnt stopped my boy from being sufficiently itnerested in bitches in heat to mate and tie with them!
Lopping off testicles is ONLY guaranteed to do two things. Prevent testicular cancer (cant get cancer of testicles you dont have), prevent the dog getting a ***** pregnant (but only safe after around 2 months AFTER castration as it can take some time for sperm remaning in the body to die).
Spaying bitches will ONLY guarantee you : No pregnancy, No pyometra.
EVERY other supposed benefit from castration/neutering is just a possibility, not a definate, and there ARE side effects - some serious, some not but if you arent prepared for any of them and believe the old claptrap about 'neutering your dog will not change him and has no bad side effects at all' you may WELL, as i was, be in for a huge shock and may not be prepared to deal with it at all.
Em
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Springersrule
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:56 am
Yep it does.
But oe should be aware that, if you intend to keep a ***** or dog entire until they mature, you CAN take preventative measures.
You can keep your dog in an enclosed garden, train a reliable recall.
You can take your dog to the vets for a 'morning after' injection.
A dog mating a ***** does NOT absolutely HAVE to mean that she has puppies.
Learning how a bitchs season should run and when she will be receptive and fertile is important to do!
Em
But oe should be aware that, if you intend to keep a ***** or dog entire until they mature, you CAN take preventative measures.
You can keep your dog in an enclosed garden, train a reliable recall.
You can take your dog to the vets for a 'morning after' injection.
A dog mating a ***** does NOT absolutely HAVE to mean that she has puppies.
Learning how a bitchs season should run and when she will be receptive and fertile is important to do!
Em
I can only post about my personal experience with this.
We adopted Ruby, a 6 year old Boxer that had only just been spayed by the rescue she was taken in by.
3 weeks later she developed 3 tiny lumps in her mammary glands. We'd been checking daily as part of a balanced health check as she'd had a rough life, so they were caught immediately. In her case, removal wasn't an option as it had already spread to her lungs (and then on to her brain later). She was given 3-4 months max by the vet, and luckily lived another 10 months until it ultimately spread to her brain and she didn't know who we were any more.
While I wholeheartedly agree that everyone has to make a balanced decision based on the facts available to them, I don't believe that checking for lumps will prevent a dog dying of mammary cancer. It didnt in Ruby's case.
Spaying a ***** before her first heat nigh on eliminates the risk of mammary cancer. Half of mammary tumours are or become malignant. The risk goes up slightly (from 0.5% to 8%) if they're spayed in between first and second seasons, and again quite significantly to 26% after the 2nd season (or if not spayed at all). After the 2nd season there is no reduction in the rates of mammary cancer from spaying.
Saying all that, the risk of an unspayed ***** getting cancer after then is 26%, one in four. There are other factors to take into account which will differ in priority between dog owners.
Each of us just has to make our own minds up for our own dogs based on what we look into and feel is important.
We adopted Ruby, a 6 year old Boxer that had only just been spayed by the rescue she was taken in by.
3 weeks later she developed 3 tiny lumps in her mammary glands. We'd been checking daily as part of a balanced health check as she'd had a rough life, so they were caught immediately. In her case, removal wasn't an option as it had already spread to her lungs (and then on to her brain later). She was given 3-4 months max by the vet, and luckily lived another 10 months until it ultimately spread to her brain and she didn't know who we were any more.
While I wholeheartedly agree that everyone has to make a balanced decision based on the facts available to them, I don't believe that checking for lumps will prevent a dog dying of mammary cancer. It didnt in Ruby's case.
Spaying a ***** before her first heat nigh on eliminates the risk of mammary cancer. Half of mammary tumours are or become malignant. The risk goes up slightly (from 0.5% to 8%) if they're spayed in between first and second seasons, and again quite significantly to 26% after the 2nd season (or if not spayed at all). After the 2nd season there is no reduction in the rates of mammary cancer from spaying.
Saying all that, the risk of an unspayed ***** getting cancer after then is 26%, one in four. There are other factors to take into account which will differ in priority between dog owners.
Each of us just has to make our own minds up for our own dogs based on what we look into and feel is important.
It is an absolutely minefield it raelly is.
It must come down to your dog, your lifestyle and you weigh up the pros and cons.
Can you cope with a dog who never matures or a ***** who is permanently on tablets for incontinence?
Can you cope with a ***** havinga couple of seasons
Is your dog a breed prone to cancer, or are they relatively free of it.
Is yours a breed that matures quickly, has only one season a yaer rather than two, or do they take up to four years to mature?
Do whats right for you and YOUR dog really, whats right for Kathys dog aint necessarily right for mine (and she did her very VERY best for Ruby)...
Mine was 9, she had had two litters, and came to me with lumpyh boobs. Shes a saluki x greyhound, shed had a hard working life and also had near constant phantom pregnancys which left her leakingmilkl and sore with mastitis.
HER lumps were benign and nearly three years on shes still here fit and happy, not acting naerly 12 at all.
Em
It must come down to your dog, your lifestyle and you weigh up the pros and cons.
Can you cope with a dog who never matures or a ***** who is permanently on tablets for incontinence?
Can you cope with a ***** havinga couple of seasons
Is your dog a breed prone to cancer, or are they relatively free of it.
Is yours a breed that matures quickly, has only one season a yaer rather than two, or do they take up to four years to mature?
Do whats right for you and YOUR dog really, whats right for Kathys dog aint necessarily right for mine (and she did her very VERY best for Ruby)...
Mine was 9, she had had two litters, and came to me with lumpyh boobs. Shes a saluki x greyhound, shed had a hard working life and also had near constant phantom pregnancys which left her leakingmilkl and sore with mastitis.
HER lumps were benign and nearly three years on shes still here fit and happy, not acting naerly 12 at all.
Em
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cyberhound
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:41 am
Quite agree. Sadly in my experience people are not given the pros and cons both from a medical AND behavioural point of view. And they're not given the pros and cons of EACH option ie of neutering early, neutering when mature, or not neutering at all. If you don't have the full facts, how can you make an informed decision for your dog?emmabeth wrote:It must come down to your dog, your lifestyle and you weigh up the pros and cons.
My experience is this. Our first dog, a GSD *****, was spayed between her first and 2nd season. She became more aggressive after spaying. Our next dog, a male GSD, was neutered at 8 months and certainly remained quite puppyish. This was fine for us but certainly brought some problematic reactions from some other dogs. We were never advised of any disadvantages of neutering either dog, other than the usual ones re any operation involving a general anaethestic
Given my experience, and what I've read about it since, I wouldn't now consider neutering any dog now until after it is fully mature. And even with a male dog I might consider whether it is truly necessary or not for *that* particular dog (provided I can prevent any unwanted litters of puppies in other ways).
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spanielsrule
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:53 pm
- Location: Aberdeen
There are certainly no easy answers on this one! I had a rescue GSD who was spayed at 6 yrs. She eventually died from tumours (started as mammary tumours, which were removed, then spread to lungs). The GSD I had from a pup was spayed between first and second season - no tumours or pyometra nor any urinary incontinence. A male spaniel was left entire for most of his life (had to be neutered eventually due to health issues). He was puppyish for most of his life, despite being entire, but seemed to find the operation quite hard going (probably as he was older). My present male spaniel was neutered before he was 12 months, and didn't even seem to realise he had had an operation. What's the best then - to neuter early and avoid problems which may never happen or wait, until the dog is old and may suffer more? I'm not sure what conclusions to draw, but all I would say, is we should never neuter for OUR convenience. Instead, whatever decision is taken, should be made in the dogs' interests.
"No matter how little money, and how few possessions you own, having a dog makes you rich." (Louis Sabin)
LBF
LBF
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Springersrule
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:56 am
You also need to ensure your not so responsible neighbours keep there entire dog safe at home as well as teaching it recall, a quick glance around any park will confirm that there aren't that many owners with dogs with 100% recall. There have been cases of suscesful matings occuring through fences, the urge to procreate is a strong urge.emmabeth wrote:Yep it does.
But oe should be aware that, if you intend to keep a ***** or dog entire until they mature, you CAN take preventative measures.
You can keep your dog in an enclosed garden, train a reliable recall.
The morning after injection is given in the event of accidents happening, not there to be used as a safety net.emmabeth wrote:You can take your dog to the vets for a 'morning after' injection.
Jumping in front of a bus doesn't mean your going to get killed, you still wouldn't allow it to happen though would you.emmabeth wrote:A dog mating a ***** does NOT absolutely HAVE to mean that she has puppies.
All my dogs and bitches have been spayed and neutered, I feel very strongly that no dog should be bred from unless it's an outstanding animal, it should conform to the breed standard and have had all the relevant tests that breed requires to ensure as far as possible that it is free of any genetic defects, a working breed should have a proven record as a working dog, as the majority of dogs out there today don't fulfill those criteria they should'nt be bred from , the only reliable way to ensure this is to to spay and neuter at an early age and as a condition of taking on a dog.
I've had dogs spayed and neutered for more years then I can remember and have never had a dog with a wolley coat, one that never matured nor one that was incontinent, I do have a two year old springer now that is incontinent, but as she was incontinent before she was spayed then that would rule the spaying out as the cause.
To be quite honest I'd rather have an immature wooley coated dog any day, better that then one at greater risk of tumours or getting run over after escaping and going after some ones ***** in season, the smell from an in season ***** travels for miles, and I've had the unfortunate experiance of an intact foster going mental trying to get to a ***** up the road in season.
Working in rescue it's my view that the responsible owner does all they can to prevent unwanted pregnancies, the only 100% effective way of doing that is to remove the bits needed to ensure pregnancy
I'm aware of a springer lass then a year old that has just given birth after being rescued, now eight homes are needed rather then one in that case, a second older springer is due to give birth any day now, indications are that it will be a large litter.
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Springersrule
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:56 am
Im not suggesting for a MINUTE that people should allow in season bitches just to do as they please and then use the morning after injection as a matter of course.
Im saying if you DO choose to keep a ***** entire either until she mature (which is what ill do next tiem i have a *****) or forever (which is afaik still perfectly legal in this country, and no one should be bullied into doing somethign they either dont want to do or dont fully understand), if the worst SHOULD happen this is an option.
I know far to many people who DIDNT know that this was an option, they DIDNT know anything about a bitches cycle or when shed likely be receptive (commonly believing htat when the ***** stops bleeding shes finished, when in fact she HASNT and often thats when shes most fertile).
I didnt either suggest that one should walk an in season ***** in a place frequented by loads of dogs, nor did i state one should let ones in season ***** hooly around off lead!
Its actually NOT that big a deal to stick to lead walks on the pavement, in quiet places at quiet times just for four weeks twice a year.
Its not that hard to NOT let your ***** outside unsupervised - none of my four dogs go outside unsupervised EVER, irrespective of the fact that three of them are neutered.
Of course i wouldnt 'allow' a ***** to get mated, but sometimes accidents do happen, so what, youd rather people werent made aware of their options following such an incident?
I dont quite follow where it says that all entire bitches and entire males WILL be bred from? Ive an entire male here who will absolutely NEVER be bred from, his conformation so far is rubbish, his temperament is decidedly dodgy and he is a mongrel.
He is entire because he is not physically or mentally ready to be neutered - if and when he ever IS, he will be done.
If you ahve never seen a dog suffer because of coat changes due to neutering then you are either very lucky or go around with your eyes firmly shut.
Ive seen HUNDREDS and instaed of the coat the owner expected they have a fluffy wooly coat they cant groom, the dog overheats, matts up, is no longer water proof and so gets soaked (one of mine does this, interestingly neutered pre puberty) to the skin..... So people shave their dogs bald adn end up with dogs wtih horrid skin conditions due to being clippered, coats that can no longer regulate their body heat....
Its NOT the nd of the world if a dogs coat changse but if you are told that that CANT happena nd if you are not prepared for it to happen and dont know how to deal with it, you are at a loss, and you can easily end up with an uncomfortable, unhappy dog.
Im also really glad you have never had one that didnt mature - the same dog here who SHOULD have a nice harsh waterproof coat, but instead has an open, fluffy wooly coat that means any walk in less than bone dry conditions has him soaked th rough in minutes, also has failed to mature. Hes four now and he still behaves like a puppy, wees like a puppy, and seemst o be to be stuck in the fearful period he was in when he was neutered.
All because i was told and i believed that neutering could have NO side effects.
Care to guess how many people i know WOULD have sent him to a rescue due to his behavioural problems and phobias? More than the 8 homes you are looking for, for cute little puppies i can tell you!
I have another dog here who i believed would be cured from going after btiches by being neutered.
Guess what - he still goes after them given the chance (he isnt given that chance though), he still can mate and tie with a willing ***** (again, accident ONCE, i was led to believe he couldnt, again by heavily pro neutering people), and now my happy go lucky dog is fearful adn dog aggressive - thats taken me the better part of nearly 5 years to get sorted out to a manageable level where he and i can be relaxed and happy.
Again, ifi id known then what i know now, i may still have neutered him but i would have done so with my eyes open, knowing what to expect and armed with the info needed to sort it out.
Heres a question for you, about responsibility.
How many bitches come into you pregnant, and of those how many do you have spayed to abort the pups?
How many bitches come in HUGELY pregnant, obviously too young or weak to raise a full litter of possibly large puppies, and of those litters how many do you cull most of the litter, leaving the ***** wtih a pair of pups so she doesnt fret?
Im guessing a/ very very few, and b/ none.
Both responsible if unpleasant things to do though (and before you leap off the deepend and get silly i am of COURSE talking about having newborn pups pts by lethal injection shortly after birth and NOTHING else), both methods would leave rescues with far less pups to rehome.
And how many dogs do you have come in with behavioural problems that may well link to being neutered early, or neutered without the owner understanding the possible side effects?
Ill bet you say none and ill also put this years take from my business on you being wrong.
Em
Im saying if you DO choose to keep a ***** entire either until she mature (which is what ill do next tiem i have a *****) or forever (which is afaik still perfectly legal in this country, and no one should be bullied into doing somethign they either dont want to do or dont fully understand), if the worst SHOULD happen this is an option.
I know far to many people who DIDNT know that this was an option, they DIDNT know anything about a bitches cycle or when shed likely be receptive (commonly believing htat when the ***** stops bleeding shes finished, when in fact she HASNT and often thats when shes most fertile).
I didnt either suggest that one should walk an in season ***** in a place frequented by loads of dogs, nor did i state one should let ones in season ***** hooly around off lead!
Its actually NOT that big a deal to stick to lead walks on the pavement, in quiet places at quiet times just for four weeks twice a year.
Its not that hard to NOT let your ***** outside unsupervised - none of my four dogs go outside unsupervised EVER, irrespective of the fact that three of them are neutered.
Of course i wouldnt 'allow' a ***** to get mated, but sometimes accidents do happen, so what, youd rather people werent made aware of their options following such an incident?
Im glad we agree on whcih dogs should be bred - but please tell me how YOU can assess whether a puppy is going to mature into a fantastic example of its breed, make an exemplary working dog with a proven record BEFORE it has had 2 years to mature and become a/ an adult adn b/physically and mentally capable of work. You have a crystal ball there?I feel very strongly that no dog should be bred from unless it's an outstanding animal, it should conform to the breed standard and have had all the relevant tests that breed requires to ensure as far as possible that it is free of any genetic defects, a working breed should have a proven record as a working dog, as the majority of dogs out there today don't fulfill those criteria they should'nt be bred from , the only reliable way to ensure this is to to spay and neuter at an early age and as a condition of taking on a dog.
I dont quite follow where it says that all entire bitches and entire males WILL be bred from? Ive an entire male here who will absolutely NEVER be bred from, his conformation so far is rubbish, his temperament is decidedly dodgy and he is a mongrel.
He is entire because he is not physically or mentally ready to be neutered - if and when he ever IS, he will be done.
If you ahve never seen a dog suffer because of coat changes due to neutering then you are either very lucky or go around with your eyes firmly shut.
Ive seen HUNDREDS and instaed of the coat the owner expected they have a fluffy wooly coat they cant groom, the dog overheats, matts up, is no longer water proof and so gets soaked (one of mine does this, interestingly neutered pre puberty) to the skin..... So people shave their dogs bald adn end up with dogs wtih horrid skin conditions due to being clippered, coats that can no longer regulate their body heat....
Its NOT the nd of the world if a dogs coat changse but if you are told that that CANT happena nd if you are not prepared for it to happen and dont know how to deal with it, you are at a loss, and you can easily end up with an uncomfortable, unhappy dog.
Im also really glad you have never had one that didnt mature - the same dog here who SHOULD have a nice harsh waterproof coat, but instead has an open, fluffy wooly coat that means any walk in less than bone dry conditions has him soaked th rough in minutes, also has failed to mature. Hes four now and he still behaves like a puppy, wees like a puppy, and seemst o be to be stuck in the fearful period he was in when he was neutered.
All because i was told and i believed that neutering could have NO side effects.
Care to guess how many people i know WOULD have sent him to a rescue due to his behavioural problems and phobias? More than the 8 homes you are looking for, for cute little puppies i can tell you!
I have another dog here who i believed would be cured from going after btiches by being neutered.
Guess what - he still goes after them given the chance (he isnt given that chance though), he still can mate and tie with a willing ***** (again, accident ONCE, i was led to believe he couldnt, again by heavily pro neutering people), and now my happy go lucky dog is fearful adn dog aggressive - thats taken me the better part of nearly 5 years to get sorted out to a manageable level where he and i can be relaxed and happy.
Again, ifi id known then what i know now, i may still have neutered him but i would have done so with my eyes open, knowing what to expect and armed with the info needed to sort it out.
Heres a question for you, about responsibility.
How many bitches come into you pregnant, and of those how many do you have spayed to abort the pups?
How many bitches come in HUGELY pregnant, obviously too young or weak to raise a full litter of possibly large puppies, and of those litters how many do you cull most of the litter, leaving the ***** wtih a pair of pups so she doesnt fret?
Im guessing a/ very very few, and b/ none.
Both responsible if unpleasant things to do though (and before you leap off the deepend and get silly i am of COURSE talking about having newborn pups pts by lethal injection shortly after birth and NOTHING else), both methods would leave rescues with far less pups to rehome.
And how many dogs do you have come in with behavioural problems that may well link to being neutered early, or neutered without the owner understanding the possible side effects?
Ill bet you say none and ill also put this years take from my business on you being wrong.
Em
