adopting German Shepherd siblings, just asking for trouble?

mum24dog · Post by **mum24dog** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:40 am

VinceS wrote: Based on the discussion in this forum I contacted some dog behaviorists. Two have responded so far, one is on the board of an animal behaviorist organization and the other studies dog behavior at a university. They stated that raising two pups does not cause them to have behavioral problems later in life and that being siblings has no bearing on it. They each said that siblings or same age pups that do grow up to be bad dogs are bad because of bad owners, not because of anything to do with the dogs. These owners would have bad dogs whether they had one or more. Given the proper amount of effort, two pups can grow into good dogs.

How do they possibly know that "These owners would have bad dogs whether they had one or more."?
I have to admit that the descriptions "bad owners" and "bad dog" rile me and I find it surprising that anyone claiming to be an expert in the field of animal behaviour would use those terms.
There are owners who aren't as knowledgeable as others - that does not make them "bad", nor does mismanagement by owners make dogs "bad".
It's an extremely negative way of thinking.
Noone has claimed that it can't be done with the right experience and preferably a lot of awareness of how to avoid potential problems.
Noone has claimed that you would automatically have problems.
However, what has been stressed is the sheer amount of work involved.
One puppy you train to do stuff. With 2 you have to train them seperately then teach them again together - three times the work as Emmabeth said.
And even when you do everything right with one dog, it's no guarantee that problems won't arise along the way.

Much of the information regarding sibling puppies on the Internet appears to be opinions based on casual observation instead of fact.

That is dismissive and patronising to the many very experienced people who share their knowledge on the net and whose opinions are validated by behaviourists at the top of their profession. These are people with hands on experience.

After finding that raising siblings would have no ill-affect on their ability to be good dogs

That is a very sweeping statement. Rather you should say "...may have no ill effect (provided that a heck of a lot of work is put into them)".

Anyway, for whatever reason I think you have come to the right decision. I'm sure the pup you choose to return will be out to a new home in no time.

Pam

mum24dog · Post by **mum24dog** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:47 am

Double post deleted

mum24dog · Post by **mum24dog** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:48 am

More reasons why you are doing the right thing.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2043

Pam

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:16 am

I would certainly say it is a bad idea for any but the most dedicated dog owners who have a lot of time, space, good health and the will to make it succeed - and even then it can go very badly wrong.

And I am a very experienced dog behaviourist

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:16 pm

VinceS wrote:Based on the discussion in this forum I contacted some dog behaviorists. Two have responded so far, one is on the board of an animal behaviorist organization and the other studies dog behavior at a university. They stated that raising two pups does not cause them to have behavioral problems later in life and that being siblings has no bearing on it.

I would suggest that you ask them if they have experience of bringing up 2 pups from the same litter.

There used to be 2 male labs near me, both from the same litter and reared successfully without any problems by their owner. When they passed away the got another 2 litter pups, even though this owner was experience with this these 2 were a nightmare to rear. Not only did they have to be trained seperately as well as together, when they matured into adult dogs they couldn't be left on their own but had to be seperated when their owners went out. These owners said they would never again get pups from the same litter.

They each said that siblings or same age pups that do grow up to be bad dogs are bad because of bad owners, not because of anything to do with the dogs. These owners would have bad dogs whether they had one or more. Given the proper amount of effort, two pups can grow into good dogs. Much of the information regarding sibling puppies on the Internet appears to be opinions based on casual observation instead of fact.

I was once told I was a very bad dog owner because I refused to feed my dog raw food, it didn't matter that my dog was alergic to raw meat and it could kill him. This is the mindset of many people who call others bad owners, their was is the only way, everyone else's is wrong.

After finding that raising siblings would have no ill-affect on their ability to be good dogs I was able to step back and change the question. Up to now I was focused on the dogs. I have to consider how this will affect me. Like all people suffering with a chronic disease, stress greatly affects my health. Raising one puppy is stressful, but it will have good and bad days. Raising two puppies is a really bad idea, not for the puppies but for me. It may not kill me, but why create unnecessary stress?

Many people don't think about how things would affect them, this is an important part of having dogs, we have to take this into consideration so we can do our best for our dogs. Well done for working out how this will affect you.

I am going to return one pup tomorrow. Now I have to deal with the stress of choosing which one. In the end, it will be better for me and the puppy that goes back to the Humane Society will be adopted very quickly.

You need to keep the pup that will fit into your lifestye easier as well as you being able to interact with the pup better. Pups and dogs are like people, we interact better with some than others.

Good luck in making this decision.

Presa1026 · Post by **Presa1026** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:00 am

Get one, if not both nuetered. That and training can fix the problem.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:20 am

No it won't, Presa. Neutering can alter the dynamics bigtime, and make matters even worse.

Training WILL work, providing the dogs are trained, exercised, fed and kept separately as much as possible, and closely supervised when together. This is a huge effort even for the most dedicated of people, and involves an enormous commitment, good health and the will to make it succeed.

kelleyanne1988 · Post by **kelleyanne1988** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:52 pm

just thought I would throw my two cents in. It is a lot of hard work, but I don't think enough people let you know that it IS possible. hard work no doubt but very possible.

I have two 8month old lab pups that are not siblings but only 4 days apart from each other. they play rough, but get along great with other dogs and so far don't have any major problems. they do have a lil problem with being left completely alone. not really being away from each other, but not having company at all (whether human or dog or whatever), but that is my fault for not working with them more on being alone.

I realize you've already made your decision and that's great. I'm sure 2 pups in general are not great idea for everyone. But for others... I know it can be difficult to stay positive about the situation with everyone downin on you for making the choice to keep both, its nice every now and then to be told that you can do it and it'll be fine if you work at it.

I know for me that my parents have already told me after having a slight break down after a bad day with the boys that if for some reason I needed to rehome one, they would gladly take Bear off my hands. (they keep tryin to steal him from me haha) but they continuely to support me and I know I am capable of raising these boys and they being happy healthy dogs, dieing at an old age of natural causes.

so for those of yall who decide to raise two pups (same litter or just close to age) it IS possible! just stick to it and continue research on how to skip problems.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:05 am

Kellyanne, I hope very much that your situation does work out, but the trouble starts at around two years old, so it's a bit early to be saying it's working well for you.

Emmabeth, Mattie I and others who have dealt with this time after time are not giving these strong warnings for nothing. This situation CAN be made to work but very rarely. It's still in the future for you.

kelleyanne1988 · Post by **kelleyanne1988** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:58 am

I realize this. but yall don't encourage people at all who make the decision honestly. and if they decide it, it would be nice to have a little support. and I strongly believe that if you want it to work then you can find a way and if you're willing to work at it then things will be fine. its really hard to come on here for advice and ask about stuff, and mainly get in return everytime that I've done something wrong and that most likely it won't work. instead itd be nice for a lil encouragement at times. I already have them, so the best advice yall could give me is how to make it work. and if work hard on this this and this then it could work out. as far as most advice I get on here, I should just look at it that it aint going to happen, and no matter what I do it probably won't work.

I've seen it work and I've heard it can work, so I do believe that if I want it to work I can make it work. all im doin is making sure these people know that if they want badly enough and they want to work at it, then good! they can do it.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:31 am

How can you say it is working when your dogs haven't got to the age were they could possibly start to fight, it is irresponsible to give advice when you haven't got to that stage yet. You don't know if your dogs will fight or not, neither are they siblings which also makes a difference.

Giving wrong information out can be dangerous, it can lead to a dead dog, by encouraging people to take on 2 dogs from the same litter that is what we could be letting these people in for, a dead dog.

Do you want a dead dog on your conscious? I don't, I want an owner and their dog or dogs to live happy, contented lives and not a life of fear, fear of going out and coming back to an injured or dead dog.

Nobody is here to encourage owners to do the wrong thing, we are here to help owners with problems that have arrisen. My duty is to the dogs not the owner, the owner can take care of themselves, the dogs can't, that have to take whatever their owners dish out to them even if it means a dog is killed. Does that dog deserve to die because someone told them that it could work.

kelleyanne1988 · Post by **kelleyanne1988** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:27 am

okay... I guess yall are taking me wrong. I'm not saying that I have experience in it or that im encouraging it. what I am saying is that if someone decides to take on the responsibility of it, that it is possible. once someone has made the decision to go ahead and take on the responsibility then it would be easier to know that it is possible.

I've gotten on here for advice right when I got bear about how to socialize him better since he was scared about everything. I did appreciate the advice that it may have been a bad idea, but its better for me AND the dog to get advice on how to work with it. most of the people (not all) mainly just told me I was doing wrong and never answered me. how can I work on getting my dogs where they need to be when all yall were doing were telling me how wrong I was to do it and not give any advice on what I was asking.

yall tell these people its horrible. but yall rarely decide to tell them that if they decide to (because in all it is their decision) that it is possible and how to help them along to make it great.

this is not an impossible task to handle. and you all have agreed on that at some point or another.

I never said it was great for everyone, but if the person wants the responsibility and willing to work at it, then it IS possible.

I have not disagreed with anything yall have said. I am simply pointing out that its not completely impossible. and I would think that if yall are here for the dog then if the person wants to take it on, then yall would be here to answer questions that may arise when they are working with the dogs and working with problems that may come about.

I personally do appreciate the advice yall have given me, but I do not appreciate those of yall who at the beginning wouldn't answer my questions with bear and just told me that I was wrong. it would do the dog better if I found out how to fix a situation (like scared of a truck) than just being told that im wrong to have gotten him, those comments got me nowhere and did not help bear in becoming part of my family. those of yall who realized I had already made me decision and agreed to give advice on what I was asking are the ones that helped the dog.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:54 am

kelleyanne1988 wrote:okay... I guess yall are taking me wrong. I'm not saying that I have experience in it or that im encouraging it. what I am saying is that if someone decides to take on the responsibility of it, that it is possible. once someone has made the decision to go ahead and take on the responsibility then it would be easier to know that it is possible.

Anything is possible, but that depends on what you mean as "possible". People should know what can go wrong just as well as they know what they can or should do, if we don't give the downside then we shouldn't be giving advice on the internet.

Many people, as has been shown on this board, take on litter siblings because they don't have the knowledge, this is very dangerous, taking on 2 dogs you do need to have knowledge of dogs no matter if they are siblings or not.

I've gotten on here for advice right when I got bear about how to socialize him better since he was scared about everything. I did appreciate the advice that it may have been a bad idea, but its better for me AND the dog to get advice on how to work with it. most of the people (not all) mainly just told me I was doing wrong and never answered me. how can I work on getting my dogs where they need to be when all yall were doing were telling me how wrong I was to do it and not give any advice on what I was asking.

Maybe these people have looking into it themselves and decided not to take on 2 dogs the same age because of the problems. They have no experience of the problems only what they found out when researching. I have taken on 2 bitches of a similar age, once came as a pup the other as an adult dog and didn't have any problems but with hindsight and if I had the knowledge then that I do know, I wouldn't have taken them on.

yall tell these people its horrible. but yall rarely decide to tell them that if they decide to (because in all it is their decision) that it is possible and how to help them along to make it great.

How can we tell them what we don't know if we haven't experienced it? It is rediculous to expect us to, many on here do have a lot of experience but it is impossible to experience everything, we are learning more and more every day but we CANNOT say what we don't know.

this is not an impossible task to handle. and you all have agreed on that at some point or another.

You haven't got there yet but are giving advice on what you don't know, that is dangerous, if someone takes your advice and one of their dogs is killed, at least my conscience will be clear, will your's?

I never said it was great for everyone, but if the person wants the responsibility and willing to work at it, then it IS possible.

Not true, it depends on the dogs, 2 dogs are a lot easier than 2 bitches, but it doesn't mean it will work. I know someone it worked for the first time, having gone through it once, and it was hard work for them, they took on another 2 dogs from the same litter, it didn't work out, they were luck, they were able to save the dog but had to rehome him for his safety.

I have not disagreed with anything yall have said. I am simply pointing out that its not completely impossible. and I would think that if yall are here for the dog then if the person wants to take it on, then yall would be here to answer questions that may arise when they are working with the dogs and working with problems that may come about.

You can disagree as much as you want, it won't change the fact that it can be very dangerous to have 2 dogs from the same litter. You are also giving advice on something you haven't had any experience of yet, very very dangerous, it won't be your dog that gets hurt or you that gets bitten in the process so you can sit back and say I disagree, it doesn't affect you.

I personally do appreciate the advice yall have given me, but I do not appreciate those of yall who at the beginning wouldn't answer my questions with bear and just told me that I was wrong. it would do the dog better if I found out how to fix a situation (like scared of a truck) than just being told that im wrong to have gotten him, those comments got me nowhere and did not help bear in becoming part of my family. those of yall who realized I had already made me decision and agreed to give advice on what I was asking are the ones that helped the dog.

We are all volunteers, we give our time and experience free to help others, we are happy to help others but when things go wrong because our advice has been ignored then we are attacked for not giving advice, that is another matter.

Like a lot of people you only want to hear what you want, if you don't want to know the right advice you ignore it or attack us for giving it. As I have said previously our duty is to the dog not you, if you got bitten it would be your fault, if one of your dogs is killed because you ignored advice, that is also your fault.

kelleyanne1988 · Post by **kelleyanne1988** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:20 am

first, I have pointed out that im not experienced in all of this.

I also did not say I disagreed. I said I have not disagreed.

with the advice I did not take, yes that's my personal choice. all advice can be taken or left. its advice not an order. I do more research than just yall. im not going to be completely reliable on just this group of people. I read up on all problems that I come across.

nobody is going to believe 100% on everything. I have never attacked yall for advice. I simply state my point. we all have different views on different situations. I am simply giving my view. that's what this forum is for.

and my view is that... if you want to do it (after having the knowledge about it) then with hard work and dedication it can work. I've believed that with everything. you work for what you want.

I am NOT telling anyone to run off and get two siblings that its the best thing you could do.

I AM telling the few people that decide to get two siblings that it is possible. i've seen it, and many of yall have seen it.

I am NOT telling you all to stop telling them the negative side of things. I truly believe that is something they do need to know. just like with medicines you need to know the possible risks and side effects.

but for those of the people that do decide to take on this situation, don't you think that yall should give the best advice yall can to help them? not just continuely tell them they're wrong?

if you haven't been in the situation but are willing to give advice then you still can. many of yall site from others even though it was not your experience. or many of yall continue to tell us to train separately and then train together. to me that's great advice for people that take on this task. continue to give that kind of advice.

YES please do let them know what could happen on the negative side, but once you have done that.... try to give the advice that they need to help get through it and have happy healthy dogs.

I wish all of yall realize that its not a crime to not take your advice. if I find something that better works for me or something else I would rather try then so be it. there are multiple different ways to do everything, there is not only one correct way.

again I wasn't even giving advice... I was not telling people do it. I was telling people that if they did, then it CAN happen.

emmabeth · Post by **emmabeth** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:37 am

We give advice not just based on what is possible but based on what is probable.

It IS possible to raise two same age dogs together and actually you'll find nowhere that we have said otherwise.

What we point out is, as the original starter of this thread realised, whilst its possible... its highly UNlikely that people will find the time to devote to raising two pups properly.

YOU are finding it a struggle to devote the time required to work with your dogs seperately which is why they cant cope on their own away from one another, and you were warned of this in advance.

You also started out with two dogs who werent in their tiny puppy stage and werent related - most people come to this issue after getting litter mates which is even more work and even more likely to end in tears.

If you can come back to this post in another 18 months, and state honestly that its been as easy as one pup, and that you have no problems at all arising from it, fair enough... but..

MOST people will struggle, most people will find it extremely hard work and wont be able to meet the demands of two puppies at the same time.

Most times, two puppies will hit maturity and will fall out - when its boys it sometimes can be sorted, IF the owner can devote the time to sorting it (but if they could they would probably not have had the issue in the first place). When its bitches it all too often ends in either one dead, or them living their lives seperated permanently and a stressful, tense household for all concernced.

We give our advice based on what is the easiest to achieve, the most likely to result in success and a happy, healthy relationship between dog and owner.

We seek to reduce the likelyhood of dogs needing to be rehomed or worse, to make training easy to fit into a daily routine and lifestyle, and taking on two same age pups, whether littermates or not is NOT the sensible route.

We do this based on not just years, decades of experience in dogs, but decades of experience with dog owners and people in general - we know what most people can and cannot achieve on a daily basis.

You will note, I have five dogs - which I find isnt a problem - I wouldnt recommend everyone to have five dogs though even though clearly it is possible. It takes time, commitment, money, and the willingness to make sacrfices that experience tells ME most people wont make. So I know its possible and yet you wont see me TELLING people to get five dogs and that its easy.

Even though I have five dogs - also note the nearest age gap between them is 12+ months! I wouldnt dream of having two pups together, even though my dogs are my number one priority in life, I still would struggle to devote the time to two puppies.