Giving advice and hopefully helping!

Get to know other Positively members here.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Giving advice and hopefully helping!

Post by Noobs »

I run into dog owners a lot on my walks, and sometimes I can see them using CM methods, poking their dogs halfheartedly in the neck and thinking the methods are working. Sometimes I try to steer the conversation to where they'll ask me why my dog is so well behaved so I can tell them not to poke their dogs. :roll:

I know a lady who has two pitbulls that are 11 months old, one male and one female. We'd met at the dog park a few months ago, and her dogs and Murphy got along pretty well, chasing each other and wrestling. She didn't want them to get too rough though so I made sure to give Murphy the "off" command whenever I saw things escalating. To her (and admittedly, my) surprise, he listened to me every time and turned and went to me or walked away every time I said "off" and asked if I trained him myself, etc. I did but with the help of everyone here! That was the day one of her dogs jumped the dog park fence (which is far too low anyway) and she had to chase her down the street while her friend stayed with the other one in the dog park. I took Murphy out immediately after that because I didn't want him to get any funny ideas.

On a couple of different occasions I've seen her on the street with both dogs having a difficult time handling them. They looked leash reactive and triggered by dogs as far away as half a city block away. Once her husband was with her and one of the dogs had gone toward Murphy as we went by with him running alongside my bike. He screamed at her "I told you ten times to hold him!!" I can only imagine what it's like when he trains the dogs!

Well yesterday there was a street fair in our neighborhood so my partner and I were out with Murphy. We saw her from across the street trying to hold the dogs back as they lunged toward us, poor woman. Some time later we ran into her (dogs weren't with her anymore) with a friend of hers and a Yorkie walking off leash - which worried me because the streets were busy with people and vendors, but the Yorkie was very well behaved and stayed very close to them. We stopped to let the dogs greet each other and she recognized me from the dog park. We talked for a bit about the problems she was having with her dogs and she said they'd hired a trainer but it "didn't work". She mentioned that they were told (before getting the last trainer) to smack the dogs to get them to listen, put choke chains on them, etc. She was always scared to take them out because people are afraid of pit bulls and the dogs keep lunging toward other dogs.

We ended up talking for quite a while, I told her how much work I'd put into Murphy with information I got online and from books. I told her that her yanking her dogs when they lunge won't work and told her the money analogy: If you saw your girlfriend down the street and your husband punched you in the arm, you would be afraid to see your friend on the street. But if every time you saw your friend and your husband gave you $50, you would be happy to see your friend and you'd look to your husband first, wouldn't you?

I had some chicken in my pocket so I showed her the "watch me" command. I told her to practice inside the house, then the yard, then the stoop, then just their street, etc. I suggested she train her dogs separately and next time she calls a trainer, to make sure it is a positive reinforcement trainer and anything that sounds like it would be uncomfortable for the dogs she shouldn't agree to. I told her to google "positive reinforcement" and learn as much as she can. She seemed really encouraged by our conversation and I hope that when she sees her trainer again she'll be more prepared with questions.

She watches both Cesar and Victoria and I told her to be careful with Cesar's methods and use her own judgment when handling her dogs; if it seems like it'll hurt the dog, don't do it. I repeatedly told her that she wants her dogs to TRUST her, not fear her. She loves Victoria so hopefully she'll make wise decisions when she tries to learn from the programs.

Meanwhile I was at a party Saturday night and got to talking to another pitbull owner who told me her 9-month-old keeps pulling on the leash and I told her about Mattie's method detailed in the sticky thread in the methods section. She was also really excited to learn of the method and said she'd try it out.

Now my partner tells me I should be a trainer. I told her I'm no trainer, I'm just nosey. :lol:
User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Post by Mattie »

Well done Noobs :lol:

You probably do know a lot more than many trainers and would do a much better job because you have taken the trouble to learn about dogs, how them communicate and how they learn. You could start with one to one sessions, you can always ask us if you don't know then you may be able to branch out into classses.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Post by Noobs »

Thanks for the encouragement, Mattie! I am considering, maybe somewhere down the line when I am financially stable enough, to go to school to be a trainer or get into some sort of work involving dogs. :D For now I'm just going to keep working on my dog and helping out owners who ask for my opinions.
RobbnAtlanta
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:40 am
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Dog Park woes

Post by RobbnAtlanta »

Great Job Noobs,

I take my dog to the park quite often (5x a week) and I have started to know the dogs and other owners. I see so many wearing prong collars (even one Pit wearing it with the prongs on the outside!) and I overhear people who say things like "Well, we're following Ceasar's methods and it seems to be helping" or "The only way we can get her to listen is by using the prong collar" and yesterday I heard to my dismay, "Oh, we use everything from choke collars to shock collars and the dogs respond very well!" I personally am appalled, but who am I to tell someone else how to train their dog. I would love to try to find a way to be diplomatic about suggesting alternatives to the current methods they are using, but I don't want to come off as being a git. I applaud you for being able to accomplish this!

Any hints about how to go about doing this? My dog is quite well behaved but doesn't quite stand out during the wrestling and chasing in the park.

Cheers!

Robb
User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Post by Noobs »

Well, I never give out advice unless someone asks. But I've found there is a way to get people to ask without pushing it myself first. One scenario is when someone says to me, "My dog keeps pulling," or something to that effect. I'll say "Oh, I've tried everything, too, and I had him for 11 months before I found a method that worked and now he walks great!" And sometimes they'll say "Oh, what did you do?" then I can describe the method, and hopefully the convo continues from there. But if they don't ask, then I won't continue.

I've come across lots of dogs at the park who jump and the owners very often yell "No jumping!" which of course the dogs never listen to. I always turn my back without saying anything, and hope that 1) the dogs get the message, and 2) so do the owners.

When I saw someone who had one of those CM Illusion collars I asked, "Does that actually work?" in an attempt to open up the conversation. And I did get the opportunity to describe the turn-and-walk-the-other-way method, but they continued to use the collar anyway.

I was lucky with the lady I talked to yesterday - she asked a lot of questions and was very receptive to my answers. But most of the time people think they can poke their dogs and use prong collars because it looks like the methods and tools are working, so you don't always get the opportunity to share what you know is a more humane way.
wvvdiup1
Posts: 3397
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:31 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by wvvdiup1 »

To RobbnAtlanta, Mattie, and Noobs:

I commend you on helping those owners who seek your advices! Unfortunately, there isn't an easy way to tell dog owners a better way to train their dogs, and in the meantime, the dogs are suffering! When I see something I don't like, I don't hold back. I just tell them and/or show them. I don't care what the dog owner thinks about it or me. To me, this is close if not animal abuse and I will not tolerate it! Just think what the dog is going through!

Well done all of you!

wvvdiup1
User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Post by Mattie »

wvvdiup, you are right there isn't an easy way to tell people they are training their dogs wrong but if you just go in all you do is turn them further away from positive reinforcement because you are doing what people like CM does. Yes some of the methods are abuse but you do need to lead these owners like we lead our dogs and not try to force them.

I did a homecheck last weekend for a dog, they told me they liked the way that CM was able to cure the dogs. I used the poke and heel kick as an example and asked if they wanted their dogs to be frightened of their hands and feet, it will mean that your dog will be frightened to be stroked and won't walk to heel because this has what you have taught your dog.

During this one of their dogs kept jumping up at me, I quickly turned round and turned back as soon as the dog stopped. Within a couple of minutes the dog was keeping all 4 feet on the ground. They were stunned, nobody has ever got him to do this before.

If we want to make life better for these dogs we shouldn't turn their owners against positive methods by the way we react to the owners, we should be encouraging them to change and not trying to force them.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Post by Noobs »

Totally agree, Mattie, which is why I always wait for someone to ask me before I say anything. I never say anything specifically against CM except for the lady the other day who was questioning his methods so I gave her my opinions on his methods, fear vs. trust, etc., and she totally got what I was saying. She especially was receptive to my analogy that chicken (or any high value treat) is to dogs as money is to humans, just as collar pops to them are equivalent to a punch in the face for us, which will hopefully help her see that she wants her dogs to cooperate with her because they're happy to do so, not because they're afraid of her. I hope she can turn her husband in that direction as well.
RobbnAtlanta
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:40 am
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Post by RobbnAtlanta »

I also must agree. I don't want to put the other party off to new ideas by coming off as pushy or 'my way or the highway' kind of philosophy. For me, no matter how right someone else is, if they came at me with that kind of brazeness I would be be closed to everything they had to say.

So waiting for someone to ask of my opinion is probably the best way to give advice, plant the seed of adopting a positive reinforcement training philosophy. Being able to back up why positive reinforcement works with real world examples helps immensely as well, the analogies are a great way of easly communicating intricate ideas.

Sometimes I do see other people trying to convey these messages by talking to the dog in particular hopefully withing earshot of the owner to get the hint.


For example, one owner had the prong collar on the outside, which worried me for all the other dogs which might try to play with this dog and get a nasty poke or worse. Another owner kept saying, "Hey, buddy, you got your collar on wrong" within earshot of the owner , hoping the owner would do soemthing about, but no.. So I assumed the owner did this on purpose to keep other dogs away from his dog.. Which is another topic... Why bring your dog to an off-leash dog park ifyou're not going to take your dog off-lease and/or allow it to be social?

Overall though, I think things are going in the right direction.
User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Post by Mattie »

When I first got Gracie, people were shocked at her reaction to any dog she saw, at the vets she had to be muzzled or she would bite them. Now they find it difficult to believe just how bad she was and my vets can do anything to her without a muzzle.

I shed many tears thinking I would never be able to do anything with her, I was terrified in case she got free and attacked another dog or bit someone but I couldn't send her back to were she came from.

Now she is my little cuddly, lapdog, she is wonderful with strange dogs and the vets who didn't know her at first won't believe just how bad she was even though it is on her records. All this was done with positive reinforcement and I am so proud of my little girl. :D
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Post by Noobs »

RobbnAtlanta wrote:Why bring your dog to an off-leash dog park ifyou're not going to take your dog off-lease and/or allow it to be social?
Oh, boy, that's a whole other can of worms!! :evil:
maximoo
Posts: 1111
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:07 am
Location: South Florida

Post by maximoo »

It might be possible that the man put the prong collar on backwards b/c he was in the process of transitioning to a regular collar. Or he didn't pay attention when he put it on. I have put a prong collar on my arm and pulled, it did not hurt at all, the ends are rounded or have a rubber tip. I suppose after repeated yanks it gets uncomfortable. Just out of curiosity have any of you anti-prong collar posters ever tested one on your arm?
User avatar
Noobs
Posts: 2536
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Location: New York, NY
Contact:

Post by Noobs »

I did when the instructor of the class I went to 14 months ago showed me the collar. It didn't hurt but she didn't pull that hard and I was expecting it. I've seen how much harder people actually yank their dogs, especially when the dog is lunging, and it's not the same as testing the arm. Not nearly. Also when a dog is reacting s/he probably wouldn't feel a prong collar any more than s/he would hear an owner yelling commads. Doesn't mean that damage isn't being done to the thrachea in the meantime.

I wouldn't use a test on my arm as an indication of how a prong collar would feel on a neck and being yanked repeatedly and unexpectedly.

I'm not saying this to be confrontational with you specifically because you're certainly not the first person to say that it didn't hurt your arm - heck, it didn't hurt my arm. But how hard did you pull? If one really wanted to test how much a prong collar hurt, one would put it round their own neck and have someone pull in the same sudden jerk they'd do to a dog. Also you would have that person stand behind you and yank when you don't expect it. You've seen how hard CM yanks in his corrections. Even if you did leave it on your arm, if you use the same force and timing as trainers like CM it would hurt. Fo' sho'.
RobbnAtlanta
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:40 am
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Post by RobbnAtlanta »

Maximoo This collar was metal and did not have rubber tips, nor were they rounded.

I believe I remember an episode of IMOTD where Victoria put the collar around her neck citing the neck is a more sensitive area, correct me if I am wrong.
wvvdiup1
Posts: 3397
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:31 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by wvvdiup1 »

You're right, RobbnAtlanta! Victoria had the owner put the prong collar on to demonstrate to give the owner the idea how painful it is to a dog because the neck is sensitive and tender.

By the way, those dog owners I confronted did not know about positive reinforcement because they watch Caesar Millan and haven't heard of Victoria Stilwell! So I told them to watch her show on Animal Planet. Hopefully they will watch her program. So they were grateful of the way I showed them how to handle their dogs.

To your advice: point well taken!

wvvdiup1
Post Reply