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OK, I am curious. I have a friend who says the family is not allowed to "play" with the Dad's hunting dog. Apparantly, he is trained on a regular basis and gets lots of work in hunting season, and she says he is VERY good at his job and loves it. But at home, he is kept alone in his outdoor kennel, never walked or allowed to just be a "family" dog.
My husband grew up with hunting dogs and his experience was the exact opposite. The dogs were always a part of the family and got lots of love and affection when they were not "working".
I feel sad for the dog and the family even though the dog is supposed happy with the life.
Any opinions?
One husband, two kids, two cats, two gerbils, one dog, one me....FULL HOUSE!!
My dogs are hunting dogs also, very highly trained. They are also my dear friends, live partly in the house (three of them sleep outside) and are thoroughly loved.
But then you see, there is just Mr. Nettle and me here.
It is so easy to ruin a well-trained dog. One person chasing after them to get something out of their mouths and the retrieve is wrecked. One game of tug and the dog may go hard-mouthed. Too many fetch games and the retrieve may be ruined (somebody ruined my terrier in one afternoon when they came to baby-sit while I had to be away, by throwing a ball for her for hours. She has never retrieved since). Mis-use or too much repetition of commands and the dog will lose the will to obey. And hunting dogs are not the easiest to train because you work side-by-side with very strong drives and instincts.
There are so many other ways to undo careful training, often for ever. I have had visitors attempt to excite my dogs by shouting "rats" "rabbits" etc. at them. To avoid this kind of stupidity, I train my dogs to hand signals and soft noises only, and I never divulge what they are. Often I don't even tell people my dogs' correct names. Why? Because they then call the name over and over and over - ruining my training again.
So yes, any risk of that and the dog is better to be kept away from the family.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
However... I do think the dog still needs to be walked/have some play time with his master every day during the off-season, and not "put in a cupboard" to be ignored when he isn't hunting. Even dogs need some daily companionship, especially if he has to work closely with humans.
Good point about undoing training. I am experiencing some of that myself while trying to get the whole family on board with positive methods, and consistant ones at that.
This family does have several kids of varying ages and a crazy schedule so being very consistant with the dog would be important.
I guess I just hate to think of it all alone outside most of the time.
One husband, two kids, two cats, two gerbils, one dog, one me....FULL HOUSE!!
The type of work is not important here. Work includes sport dogs (Agility, flyball etc...) hunting, service dogs etc... Because of the constant training these dogs have to perform their assigned tasks most owners of such do not have "play" with their dogs.
Especially for competition sport dogs play is training and training is play. I admit I still take mine to a local dog park, but mainly to talk with friends. Most of the time while in the park though we are working on skills of working around other dogs, conditioning exercises and using play as a reward for performing.
Chloe my therapy dog does not go to dog parks. She works 4 times a month visiting a variety of places. At home she receive continued training for useful behaviors for her visits. She does get to play with my other dogs and the dogs live inside. All get regular exercise and mental stimulation which meets both a dog's social needs and physical needs.
Chloe's newest trick I call paws up. For patients with limited mobility or bed confinement, I move a chair or stool next to the person and Choe will put her front paws up and extend herself over so the patient has an easier time to pet her. I cannot express how many smiles she has received from people and how many patients have shown much gratitude in her visits. Everyone always compliments her on how well trained and behaved she is.
If this hunting do receives regular training as suggested, walking may not be necessary or may be apart of the dogs regular training.
Speaking of undoing training, I have been working hard with Khan to run with me for agility so that hopefully we can move to more off leash training. Well he broke his startline today and runs to my instructor and sits. My instructor rewards him with turkey gizzards and beef hearts. The rest of the night once released he ran straight to her for more of the good stuff LOL. Apparently my roast turkey and lamb lung weren't good enough tonight.
Note her rewarding for running from a start position to her only occurred once and it took me the better part of the evening to get it back. (I had to borrow treats from her in order to do so) LOL.
I was on holiday and met a family with a beautiful black Labrador, she was really soppy and her idea of heaven was to sit on her dad's knee, if allowed she would never move off. All the children on the site would play with her and she was really good with them.
Talking to this man one day he said she had won a lot of competition as a gun dog, especially if water was involved. I asked if her being a family pet had made any different to her working life or not and he said "No, she can tell the difference in working and not working.
Quite a few years ago there was a prison officer who was a dog handler as well, this dog was a GSD and fully trained for the prison service. At home he was a normal pet dog and did pet dog things, as soon as his handler put his uniform on, the dog changed, he became a working dog.
There's a reality show on Animal Planet called "K9 Cops" and they profile different police officers and their K9 partners, mostly GSDs. They showed the dogs working and pursuing criminals, etc., and then showed the officers and the dogs at home, some with children, where the dog is treated like a family pet with playtime and hugs and cuddles on the couch and everything. So I am finding this thread really interesting because of the differences.
That program also came to my mind when this thread started-- I was thinking about how the police dogs are taken home with the officers and integrated into their families.
In addition, other service dogs are family dogs as well. It is when the harness comes on that they are "on duty," and not allowed to socialize. But at home out of harness, they are "just a part of the family."
It is important to realise the differences between training different breeds and for different work. The duties of police and service dogs are way different from hunting dogs, and they may well be trained using a mixture of methods including strong aversives. They are trained by adapting their natural drives into unnatural behaviour, where the hunting dog is encouraged to use its natural drives - more naturally (but not completely naturally).
The man in the first post may well be going for damage limitation by keeping his well-trained very good dog away from possible disruption to its training, the same way I do with mine, because training people is far harder than training dogs. Otherwise he will have to be on the family's/friends' case the whole time in case they ruin his dog.
It is easy for us to slip into a sentimental mindset that all dogs want the sofa/hugs/kisses/mixing with the children. Mine would rather hunt than eat, and though they have endless access to affection (and the sofa) put on your boots and they are shivering with eagerness.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
Thanks, guys! This is very interesting. I guess I have that mindset that all dogs should be "cuddled and spoiled" some. But if the dog is doing what it loves most, that is reward enough for him.
I can only assume it has all its other needs met as I have not even seen the dog. I walk past their house everyday and never even hear a bark from the back yard.
One husband, two kids, two cats, two gerbils, one dog, one me....FULL HOUSE!!
My boss's dog is the same in a way. She's totally docile even though she's loved and petted and is a family pet and service dog. she'll play tug of war and she comes up to greet but if she's not being my boss's guide dog she'll sleep...and sleep..and sleeep. My boss told me just recently she just recently found her innerpuppy, somewhat but she's still very very mellow. I don't think you can take the guide dog out of her even if you tried.
There is no reason to keep hunting dogs away from the family.. thats a bunch of bull.
I own a hunting breed, volunteer with the springer rescue and know many breeders, some that breed for sport. Their dogs are very good at what they do (hunting), but are also part of the family.
Living like a dog should with its humans does not "undo" training.
Ummmm, I'm finding what you all have said very interesting. My grandfather used to raise beagle dogs and he used to get very angry when we grandchildren would take them for walks or even play with them! I guess it was that he thought we would "ruin" them. But, as it turned out, they turned out to be really good hunting dogs!
As for police and service dogs, my dog is a retired police dog. My family and I treat her really good and with respect. Dogs are intelligent animals! As long as they are walked or exercised, well trained, well fed, and treated with respect, they will do great.
Springermom, it is very easy to ruin a hunting dog by normal family play if you have high standards of training and performance, in just the ways I have described earlier. In addition to risking making the dog hard-mouthed or spoiling its retrieve, springers are known for developing a whine while waiting their turn to work, which is impossible to cure once started, and can teach other erstwhile well-behaved dogs to whine with excitement as well.
So bull it ain't.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
and for different work. The duties of police and service dogs are way different from hunting dogs, and they may well be trained using a mixture of methods including strong aversives. They are trained by adapting their natural drives into unnatural behaviour, where the hunting dog is encouraged to use its natural drives - more naturally (but not completely naturally).