Hunting vs Family Dog?

[springermomx3]

It is bull...
I know plenty of breeders that breed their springers for hunting, their dogs are very good at what they do and recieve many titles, and at the same time are family house pets.
Theres no reason for a dog to live in a kennel alone, period.

[Nettle]

Sprngermom you misread me. I have never at any stage said a working dog should live in a kennel alone. A kennelled dog is not per se a neglected dog so long as it has regular good walks, plenty of work, and supervised human and canine company. Many so-called pet dogs have a far worse time than well-kept kennelled dogs.

My dogs (not springers ) are first-class at their job and very much pets too - but there is no way I would let someone else and particularly not children interact with them in a way that would ruin their training. I have already told how one person in one afternoon finished my terrier for retrieving.

I reckon OP's person realises he cannot watch what the family does all the time, so he opts for management - good management - of the situation. The people you know either have very well-trained families - good for them - or are happy to risk the dogs being ruined/accept a low standard of work.

[springermomx3]

Wow... cant talk to a brick wall, I learned that early on. The dogs I am referring to do not "have a low standard of work".

Dogs are meant to be with humans, not kennels.

[Mattie]

Wow... cant talk to a brick wall, I learned that early on. The dogs I am referring to do not "have a low standard of work".

Dogs are meant to be with humans, not kennels.

I find this insulting, Nettle gives a lot of her time free on here to help others, and I would trust her with my dogs anytime, wouldn't trust you with them because when you are given an explanation of something and you don't like it, you personally insult that person.

Dogs are meant to be with dogs not humans, it is us humans that have changed dogs to suit us not the other way round.

[springermomx3]

Wolves are meant to be with other canines, dogs are meant to be with humans because yes, we made them that way.

Perhaps I insulted her, perhaps not, don't really care.. my concern is for and always will be for the dogs, not the people. I have no issue telling my customers how it is or someone on a forum. The dogs come first. Sorry.

[Mattie]

No dear, dogs can take care of themselves very well without us humans, they don't need us but we need dogs.

Your attitude stinks, there is nobody more caring about dogs than Nettle but she doesn't insult people, she tries to convert them into a better way instead of chasing them away which your attitude does. It is thanks to Nettle and the way she speaks to people that many now have well trained dogs. All you will do is chase people away so they can't learn how to do things with your attitude.

If you an't speak to people better, maybe you are in the wrong job.

[springermomx3]

Umm no. I'd disagree.. dogs do need us to survive.. or at least to live long, healthy lives. Wolves in the wild only live approx. 5 yrs. Dogs live 10-20.

I'm not in the wrong job dear.. I'm the only one in the salon that deals with rescues and difficult, aggressive, fear biting dogs. I can safely and successfully groom most of them. People? I don't have patience for people that bring their maltese in with a pelt of hair thats 6 inches thick.. yet their hair is dyed, curled, and they've got an ipod in their hand. I don't have patience for people that wont bring their 13yr old dog to the vet because he cant walk or stand but making him pretty is more important. I don't have patience for people that think its ok to keep a dog in a kennel because it will "ruin" training, which is NOT true...

And I really don't give a hoot what you say or think about me. Dont reply if you dont like it, or simply dont read my posts.

[Nettle]

It can be extremely hard for some human egos to realise that we are not the most important thing in our dogs' lives. To realise that dogs have their own needs, wants and desires, and top of that list is not hugs, cuddles and romping with the kids. To understand that a dog 'protecting us' is in actual fact protecting itself, and that it has no comprehension of our owning, buying food for or housing it. To understand that it would rather be out doing 'dog things' than interacting with an alien species - us.

Dogs need a safe place to be, proper healthy food, plenty of exercise and stimulus, socialisation with well-mannered dogs, a calm environment in which to rest, and a perception of the different nature they have from our own. They need to eat in a place where they feel unthreatened by other dogs or people, and sleep where they know they will be undisturbed.

Yes they often come to love us, to enjoy our caresses and our strange human ways. But they don't need us. They have no choice in the manner in which they share our lives; we in our turn often have little understanding of their innermost drives.

It is the 'otherness' of dogs which is so wonderful about them. They are not pretend children, partners, siblings or in any way human. They are dogs. They are one of the most amazing creatures that can share our lives, but they often pay dearly for it.

I make my living from people who do not understand this. It is a very hard concept for some. Dogs have no ego, and it is good for us to leave ours at the door and learn what they come to teach us. It is a lifetime project.

Welcome aboard

[Kittylove5]

Sometimes I feel dogs need us, cats on the other hand, are way more independent than a dog.

Leave a dog in the house for a few hours and you'll come back to a wrecked house and a dog so anxious it wont stop peeing itself.

Leave a cat in the house for a few hours and come back to everything just fine and the cat could care less where you have been as long as if you given it a meal.

Leave a dog out in the wild it'll get into trouble, become aggressive and steal to live, it may just wonder out into a busy road and get flattened by a car looking for its next meal.

I'm only talking of the dogs needing us and wanting our companionship.

On the untraining part, I don't know, maybe all dogs are different. Maybe some dogs have a untraining switch that comes with them.

I grew up living with a great grandfather with hunting Beagles, I'd help feed them and I would go out and play with his Basset hound but he never complained about me untraining his dogs, always did fine bringing home dead things.

[emmabeth]

Perhaps I insulted her, perhaps not, don't really care.. my concern is for and always will be for the dogs, not the people. I have no issue telling my customers how it is or someone on a forum. The dogs come first. Sorry.

Right, consider this an official instruction to start caring.

This forum works because people on the whole, attempt to give advice and information without offending others.

Telling someone, especially someone who I can assure you, knows more about the care, management and training of working dogs than you've had hot dinners, that their information is 'bull' is not on.

I agree with Mattie, your attitude does indeed stink.

If you DONT care how you come across - do feel free to leave.

There is not currently any way to ignore certain users on this forum, and so we all have no option BUT to read your posts (unless I or BoardHost delete them that is).

There are a lot of us who daily see and hear about the way humans let dogs down, and I'm sure from time to time (if not most of the time) some of us would say we like animals better than humans.

But when dealing with dog problems, its usually the case that there is a human problem at the root of it (whether thats the current owner doing things inappropriately or a previous owner or whatever) - being able to at worst, hide your anger and at best actually care about the people, is crucial. You may think you put dogs first, but by alienating their owners, you are NOT doing them any favours at all, unleashing your rage upon them just makes you feel better!

As far as the original post and Nettles response to it, I agree wholeheartedly - for some familys and some dogs, being kennelled for certain periods of the day/night IS the best option. This can be done and IS done quite happily for a lot of dogs and humans.

There are others for whom this will not suit, and thats fine too.

[springermomx3]

Rage? What rage?
Wow.. get a grip people.

You have no clue about what knowledge I have as far as the training of dogs goes, and other such topics. Don't tell me I am insulting and rude when you all are yourselves.

All I said was having a hunting dog be part of the family ruining the training is bull.. because it is. A seeing eye dog knows when his vest is off he's not working and can play. It doesnt ruin his training. And his work is MUCH more important and detailed than a hunting dog.

I am very much involved with the "springer world" and know plenty of breeders who keep their dogs as part of the family and it does not compromise their training or skill in the field.

It's not ok for dogs to live their lives away from human families. Maybe you think its ok for your dogs or the dogs you train. I dont.

[emmabeth]

Guide dogs... ha!

How many poor guide dogs need retraining, placing with a different person/family or need retiring EARLY because their family life has undone the training they have had and made them not just hard to work with, but plain dangerous - plenty of them!

That is after the extremely rigorous assessment scheme - of all the blind people who want a guide dog, not all that many are actually suitable to own a guide dog and their lifestyle and family home are a big part of that.

Finally - as an example to back up your case for working dogs living in the home being the only way to do things, guide dogs is a pretty weak one - they get very little time to actually BE dogs, for all the time they may be at home unharnessed and 'not working', their lives are VERY strictly controlled and when they arent... they rapidly lose their training!

Your way is not the only way, I happen to prefer my dogs living in the house, but I know plenty (Nettles dogs included) who do not live inside full time and are very happy dogs indeed.

I know a lot of dogs who live in the house, subjected to the hectic daily family life, who go totally nuts and cannot cope, but then again I know of dogs who revel in watching the bonkers chaotic life going on around them and seemingly suffer no ill effect (though those are pet dogs and do not work... make of that what you will).

What suits one dog, one family, is wrong for another dog, another family.

As far as knowing what knowledge you have... no I don't, maybe if you posted more here to aid other users I would know.

I DO know that a closed mind towards other ideas is a very limiting thing when it comes to dealing with people and/or dogs though...

[ckranz]

Rage? What rage?

A seeing eye dog knows when his vest is off he's not working and can play. It doesnt ruin his training. And his work is MUCH more important and detailed than a hunting dog.

It's not ok for dogs to live their lives away from human families. Maybe you think its ok for your dogs or the dogs you train. I dont.

For the first statement much depends on the purpose of the hunt. If one is hunting to provide food and survive, then I would say their job is just as important.

Sled dogs in Alaska and other regions do not live in happy warm houses. They live outside. The sledding breeds have natual adaptations allowing for this and they thrive in those cold environments.

Don't know where you live byt I live in a very very hot area of the country. I also do not have AC in the house. From late July thru October its frequently cooler for the dogs to live outside as it can get to 120F+ indoors especially after the oven has been on for making dinner. Outside there is always plenty of water, shade and occasionally a nice breeze. There are many nights I roll out a mattress and join them outside.

[Kittylove5]

I feel like you guys aren't giving dogs enough credit here, it's like you guys are basically saying, dogs are stupid and they cannot be here, or there or with this person because they'll forget what they were trained to do.

Also, I am a little offended, I am legally blind, I DON'T own a guide dog because I see a lot more than most blind people do and I can get around fine with glasses. Guide dogs can stick around as much as they like, I was told by my boss that they gave an option when her service dog retired was to either go help another VISUALLY IMPARED person or stay with her. Not because the dog has stayed so much that it completely wrecked the dog and needs to be taken away, also I beleive they have their service dog training a lot while they are with their owners.

I think that maybe if you stay on your training with a dog it'll become less likely to do any harm to what the dog was supposed to do.

[Nettle]

I'm the last person to call dogs stupid (though, like people, you do get some dogs much dimmer than others). A smart dog needs a smarter owner. It can be a close call sometimes.

Hunting dogs have their natural instincts interrupted by training. Find a bird, flush a bird wait unmoving while that bird is shot find the shot bird, retrieve it without damaging it, deliver it to hand, let go on command.

Foxhounds search for a fox, find a fox, ignore the deer, the rabbits, the hares (all much nicer to eat) run through the sheep and cattle without reacting to them, hunt that fox, kill it, let the huntsman pick it up without a growl between them. If going into the wrong area, stop their hunting and return to the huntsman on command.

Lurchers - find a rabbit, catch it, retrieve it alive and unharmed, deliver it to hand, go straight out and do it again, and again.

All this takes a lot of training, good careful training at the dog's speed not the human's. All of it can be lost by the wrong treatment. Just like training at home - if one person in the family encourages the dog to bark, jump up, pull on the leash, that dog will eagerly do so. Some folks are happy with low standards, and some want better.

I know a lot of very unruly dogs, and I know a lot of very good ones. They are sentient beings not robots, no matter how well trained, and they will do what works. That's how dogs are.