Support dog shows and breeders?
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Support dog shows and breeders?
I was wondering what's Victoria Stilwell things about dog shows that only let pure breeds in and these "recommendable/local" breeders? Everyone else is welcomed to throw in their opinions/comments.
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Kittylove5
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My thoughts? Its a load of crap! A pure bred dog can mate with another and have the possibilities of having one of its puppies not show worthy even though the puppy itself was born from purebreds
They say that they have to have certain features to be eligable to win to me that's like taking someone to a compitition and turning them around because they weren't fullblooded x race.
(Just what I think)
Is AKC the only ones that have the dog shows?
Also, I am not sure about the reccomendable/ local breeders but I beleive the breeders are the one who have to register the moher, father and puppies, I think..
They say that they have to have certain features to be eligable to win to me that's like taking someone to a compitition and turning them around because they weren't fullblooded x race.
(Just what I think)Is AKC the only ones that have the dog shows?
Also, I am not sure about the reccomendable/ local breeders but I beleive the breeders are the one who have to register the moher, father and puppies, I think..
Please dont swear on the forum.
There is a lot of rubbish talked about conformation showing - however if we want to have a range of specific and identifiable breeds then conformation showing is going to be a part of that.
If you would prefer that we all had medium sized brownish blackish dogs all of a similar temperament ... then by all means, do away with breed registrys and showing of all kinds.
But that wouldnt actually suit 99% of the dog owning population, not the people who want specific pedigrees or the ones who want designer xbreeds with silly names, or the ones who want purpose bred xbreeds for various tasks, or any of us who enjoy the weird and wonderful range of mutts n mongrels that are around.
ALL these exist because we have several hundred recognised 'pure breeds'.
Conformation showing OUGHT (and ill admit it isnt always and it needs a good kick in the pants) to be about assessing a group of dogs of a particular breed and finding the one who is closest to the ideal for that dog.
That ideal ought to be drawn up to outline how the dog should look in order to do the job it was bred to do.
So you might think that for instance... a long haired german shepherd looks nicer than a standard coated one - but since that dog is suppposed to work hard all day in any weather, the long coat is going to be wet to the skin and carrying several kg of water around with it - the standard coat isnt.
Or you might think your border terrier is better than the one that wins, but yours is several inches taller than the breed standard calls for and cannot go to ground as it is too large..so it cannot do the job a border terrier was bred to do..
So if we dont stick to a breed standard... then what? You have giant border terriers that cant do their job, at what point does the animal stop being that breed? If its a Border Collie that is too long coated and too short in the leg to actually herd sheep... is it still a border collie?
If you have a dalmation that actually has black and white patches instead of spots and is too short in the leg and too low to the ground to follow a carriage, is it still a dalmation?
And how exactly do you allow crossbreeds and dogs of unknown parentage into a show if there is no standard for them? That then would just be a 'dog the judge would like to take home' class... and theres plenty of those available to enter if you want to at pet shows!
In the UK we have lurcher shows and terrier shows and dogs can enter these without being registered with anyone....
But they are judged to a standard of sorts, Nettle can tell you more about it, but you still cant enter your 26" tall labradoodle into the 22" and under rough coated lurcher class... so its still not the free for all you are after.
Anyway going back to the original question..
The Kennel Clubs run their shows - in the UK thats the Kennel Club, in america then the AKC will run shows.
If you want to show under their rules you enter (if you are eligible to do so), their shows.
If you arent a member of any other club... do you assume a right to attend their events anyway?
Im not a member of the Classic Shiny Vintage Cars Club... but i have a white Vauxhall van so shall i show up at one of their rallies and demand I be allowed to enter a class?
Of course not, thats ridiculous!
If you want to show then you make sure the dog you choose is suitable for that purpose. If you dont want to show, dont.
If you want to sometimes go to summer pet shows and see whose dog the judge likes most - any dog can do that (all of mine, pedigree or not, have at some point placed in a 'dog the judge would most like to take home' class!).
Unless you remove the competitive gene from human beings, we will ALWAYS have clubs and shows and competitions that include some and exclude others.
Otherwise, wheres the point of clubs or competition?
Anyway im off now to write to the Olympics selection committee to tell them its DEEPLY unfair that I cant represent the UK for the 100metre sprint simply because i cant WALK 100metres in under half an hour....and whilst Im at it, I may complain that Im not invited to the Polish Social Clubs annual dinner merely because I am neither a member nor am I Polish... oooh and then theres the carparking spaces outside the Supermarket... Id like to use the disabled ones or the mother and child ones, the fact i am neither disabled nor a mother with a child.... irrelevant!
There is a lot of rubbish talked about conformation showing - however if we want to have a range of specific and identifiable breeds then conformation showing is going to be a part of that.
If you would prefer that we all had medium sized brownish blackish dogs all of a similar temperament ... then by all means, do away with breed registrys and showing of all kinds.
But that wouldnt actually suit 99% of the dog owning population, not the people who want specific pedigrees or the ones who want designer xbreeds with silly names, or the ones who want purpose bred xbreeds for various tasks, or any of us who enjoy the weird and wonderful range of mutts n mongrels that are around.
ALL these exist because we have several hundred recognised 'pure breeds'.
Conformation showing OUGHT (and ill admit it isnt always and it needs a good kick in the pants) to be about assessing a group of dogs of a particular breed and finding the one who is closest to the ideal for that dog.
That ideal ought to be drawn up to outline how the dog should look in order to do the job it was bred to do.
So you might think that for instance... a long haired german shepherd looks nicer than a standard coated one - but since that dog is suppposed to work hard all day in any weather, the long coat is going to be wet to the skin and carrying several kg of water around with it - the standard coat isnt.
Or you might think your border terrier is better than the one that wins, but yours is several inches taller than the breed standard calls for and cannot go to ground as it is too large..so it cannot do the job a border terrier was bred to do..
So if we dont stick to a breed standard... then what? You have giant border terriers that cant do their job, at what point does the animal stop being that breed? If its a Border Collie that is too long coated and too short in the leg to actually herd sheep... is it still a border collie?
If you have a dalmation that actually has black and white patches instead of spots and is too short in the leg and too low to the ground to follow a carriage, is it still a dalmation?
And how exactly do you allow crossbreeds and dogs of unknown parentage into a show if there is no standard for them? That then would just be a 'dog the judge would like to take home' class... and theres plenty of those available to enter if you want to at pet shows!
In the UK we have lurcher shows and terrier shows and dogs can enter these without being registered with anyone....
But they are judged to a standard of sorts, Nettle can tell you more about it, but you still cant enter your 26" tall labradoodle into the 22" and under rough coated lurcher class... so its still not the free for all you are after.
Anyway going back to the original question..
The Kennel Clubs run their shows - in the UK thats the Kennel Club, in america then the AKC will run shows.
If you want to show under their rules you enter (if you are eligible to do so), their shows.
If you arent a member of any other club... do you assume a right to attend their events anyway?
Im not a member of the Classic Shiny Vintage Cars Club... but i have a white Vauxhall van so shall i show up at one of their rallies and demand I be allowed to enter a class?
Of course not, thats ridiculous!
If you want to show then you make sure the dog you choose is suitable for that purpose. If you dont want to show, dont.
If you want to sometimes go to summer pet shows and see whose dog the judge likes most - any dog can do that (all of mine, pedigree or not, have at some point placed in a 'dog the judge would most like to take home' class!).
Unless you remove the competitive gene from human beings, we will ALWAYS have clubs and shows and competitions that include some and exclude others.
Otherwise, wheres the point of clubs or competition?
Anyway im off now to write to the Olympics selection committee to tell them its DEEPLY unfair that I cant represent the UK for the 100metre sprint simply because i cant WALK 100metres in under half an hour....and whilst Im at it, I may complain that Im not invited to the Polish Social Clubs annual dinner merely because I am neither a member nor am I Polish... oooh and then theres the carparking spaces outside the Supermarket... Id like to use the disabled ones or the mother and child ones, the fact i am neither disabled nor a mother with a child.... irrelevant!
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Fundog
- Posts: 3874
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My apologies in advance, as I don't mean to swear, but: is "crap" a swear word in the U.K.? That's the only word I could find in the previous posts that might be considered offensive. Here in the U.S. it is an acceptable substitute for another word that means the same thing, but is definitely considered offensive. Thank you for the clarification, and again, my apologies in advance. 
Or BTs too small to do the job they were intended for - driving away foxes or even badgers and otters.emmabeth wrote:So if we dont stick to a breed standard... then what? You have giant border terriers that cant do their job, at what point does the animal stop being that breed?
Miniaturisation is a common feature of the show world and the BT is a prime example. Judges favour small dogs so small dogs are bred and you get lap dogs instead of working dogs.
Apparently - according to the KC. You've given a perfect example of a typical show "BC". That's what happens to a breed when the conformation people get their claws into them. From working dog to Barbie in just over 30 years. Plenty of people consider that they have departed far enough from the original breed (which had no breed standard) not to deserve the name of Border Collie.If its a Border Collie that is too long coated and too short in the leg to actually herd sheep... is it still a border collie?
Close the stud book on a breed and you restrict the gene pool. Restrict the gene pool and you end up with the mess of genetic problems that we have now. Have a competitive system where the winners (based on appearance) have a disproportionate influence on the breed through repeated matings and the problems are made worse.
Pam
Hey - I never said what we have is perfect, its far from that, I think we should have working ability tests too, and compulsory health testing.
The KC ARE open to allowing new blood into breeds, I dont know where the idea that they arent has come from. But... and its a big big but.... it takes a LOT of research and work and forward planning from those proposing to do it and crucially.... a LOT of co operation from a group of people...
That is where it falls down flat unfortunately and that is why it so very rarely happens. People cannot commit to co operating with one another long enough to achieve it on a useful scale, personal issues crop up, some people want to but cant be bothered with the planning involved... etc etc.
Bruce Cattanach did it, but he did it for the most part, on his own and on a very small scale.
Anyway the original post was not about the failings of the UK KC or particularly about the health problems highlighted or caused by breeding - it was mostly about the exclusivity of showing/registrys.. or rather the perception thereof.
(Interestingly though my friends crufts qualified (i think lifetime!) Border Terriers not only show successfully.. but WORK very successfully. Fearless little things they are!)
The KC ARE open to allowing new blood into breeds, I dont know where the idea that they arent has come from. But... and its a big big but.... it takes a LOT of research and work and forward planning from those proposing to do it and crucially.... a LOT of co operation from a group of people...
That is where it falls down flat unfortunately and that is why it so very rarely happens. People cannot commit to co operating with one another long enough to achieve it on a useful scale, personal issues crop up, some people want to but cant be bothered with the planning involved... etc etc.
Bruce Cattanach did it, but he did it for the most part, on his own and on a very small scale.
Anyway the original post was not about the failings of the UK KC or particularly about the health problems highlighted or caused by breeding - it was mostly about the exclusivity of showing/registrys.. or rather the perception thereof.
(Interestingly though my friends crufts qualified (i think lifetime!) Border Terriers not only show successfully.. but WORK very successfully. Fearless little things they are!)
Sorry, but I'm not impressed by dogs that have qualified for Crufts for life.emmabeth wrote:(Interestingly though my friends crufts qualified (i think lifetime!) Border Terriers
It's not as hard to do as might be imagined, especially if you're in luck with the judge.
Favouritism is rife in the show world. How can one explain the Crufts judge this year who was only putting up black Staffies and ignoring the rest. Surely it couldn't simply have been coincidence that all the rest were rubbish?
It's all a meaningless charade. If the whole show system didn't have such disastrous effects on the lives of innocent dogs I'd be inclined to let the people who want to pretend that it all matters a jot get on with it, but so much harm has been done in the name of conformation that I can't turn a blind eye.
Going back to the question of BTs, a friend bred and showed them for many years but when the current trend for ever smaller dogs took hold she refused to follow suit and depart from what they ought to be in her opinion.
What work do your friend's dogs do?
Examples of show dogs that can actually do something can always be found - I even know of the odd show BC that hasn't lost its herding ability completely, but they aren't the norm.
Pam
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Fundog
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Another prime example of what has been said about the border collies is the bird dogs-- spaniels and setters, particularly. The English Springer Spaniels and English/Irish Setters have diverged into two distinct "breeds," bench bred and field bred. A few breeders have tried to cross-breed them back into dual-purpose, but it is not very widely accomplished, as of yet.
I would love to see that happen-- cross breeding (and perhaps rewriting the breed standards) to the point that these show dogs are capable of actually doing what they were intended to do in the first place, so that one breed is no longer split into two different breed types.
But as has already been pointed out, many of these "breed standards" have been set by people with perhaps a distorted view of how "beautiful" is defined. This distortion is also widely demonstrated in the modeling world, with anorexic models, showing young, growing, teen girls what "beautiful" ought to be, thus creating all these little girls with eating disorders. Or the teen boys using steroids so they can look like their body-building heros.
It's really all about perception, and how some people define "beauty." If it isn't my cup of tea, I just don't participate. I define beauty another way: For example, seeing my dog point when she sees a bird. Or sniff out a minuscule scrap of food from 50 yards away. That's beauty.
I would love to see that happen-- cross breeding (and perhaps rewriting the breed standards) to the point that these show dogs are capable of actually doing what they were intended to do in the first place, so that one breed is no longer split into two different breed types.
But as has already been pointed out, many of these "breed standards" have been set by people with perhaps a distorted view of how "beautiful" is defined. This distortion is also widely demonstrated in the modeling world, with anorexic models, showing young, growing, teen girls what "beautiful" ought to be, thus creating all these little girls with eating disorders. Or the teen boys using steroids so they can look like their body-building heros.
It's really all about perception, and how some people define "beauty." If it isn't my cup of tea, I just don't participate. I define beauty another way: For example, seeing my dog point when she sees a bird. Or sniff out a minuscule scrap of food from 50 yards away. That's beauty.
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Kittylove5
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:49 pm
- Location: Missouri, USA
That's what I'd like to see too, Fundog. a few of the origional or "Standard" dogs are somehow lost because people wanted them smaller or handle different working groups.
Although it was a long time ago, but Pomeranians(One of my favorites) were supposed to have been 35lbs and were sled and hearding dogs I think but were bred down to size that their standard is now 7lbs but how does that happen? imbreeding?
I would like to see them that big again if they do exist.
Also, Fundog I agree with you on the modeling/idolizing thing, people show others the wrong image of beauty. It's kinda like how people think of the word "Perfect" but when you think about it, everyone has their different views of what is what and to me that is why I beleive there is no such thing as "Perfect"
Also, do you have any pictures of your dog pointing? That would be so cool to see.
Also, sorry if I jump the gun when talking about dog shows. It just doesn't seem fair when it comes to other dogs even if you do bring a purebred dog you could still be turned around and disqualified because there could be too much red in x dog or x dog is a couple ounces overweight. I know there are obideince and flyball and agility shows but the one that seems to matter is the actual showing of the dogs.
Although it was a long time ago, but Pomeranians(One of my favorites) were supposed to have been 35lbs and were sled and hearding dogs I think but were bred down to size that their standard is now 7lbs but how does that happen? imbreeding?
I would like to see them that big again if they do exist.Also, Fundog I agree with you on the modeling/idolizing thing, people show others the wrong image of beauty. It's kinda like how people think of the word "Perfect" but when you think about it, everyone has their different views of what is what and to me that is why I beleive there is no such thing as "Perfect"
Also, do you have any pictures of your dog pointing? That would be so cool to see.
Also, sorry if I jump the gun when talking about dog shows. It just doesn't seem fair when it comes to other dogs even if you do bring a purebred dog you could still be turned around and disqualified because there could be too much red in x dog or x dog is a couple ounces overweight. I know there are obideince and flyball and agility shows but the one that seems to matter is the actual showing of the dogs.
We need to support GOOD breeders because they are the people who breed our pet dogs. They might breed for showing and the less suitable dogs are sold as pets, but that's okay surely, if the dogs are well bred and reared.
Working-bred dogs are a whole different ball game. Not all that many people want working drive and intelligence in their pets and even fewer could cope with it. A working-bred dog kept as a pet can be miserable and frustrated if the owner does not find an outlet for its needs.
Working-bred dogs are a whole different ball game. Not all that many people want working drive and intelligence in their pets and even fewer could cope with it. A working-bred dog kept as a pet can be miserable and frustrated if the owner does not find an outlet for its needs.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
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Fundog
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Kittylove, I do have a couple of pics of my setter on point, but they are not very good quality, since they are on my cell phone. However, there are literally hundreds of pics of the same stance on the web you could find. Dottie is an English Setter (field bred). So you could google "English Setter on point" and choose the "images" feature of your browser. It is indeed a lovely sight, and makes a great screen saver.
On the subject of beauty, I had another beautiful experience with Annie, my Springer Spaniel this morning (just a couple of hours ago). Since it is still the middle of the night in my region, it is dark out. I took the girls to an unfinished subdivision nestled against a public wilderness reserve area (ancient Native American Petroglyphs and hiking trails). I had Annie off-lead because she's a "good" dog, and Dottie on the long-lead because well, she's Dottie. Well, I managed to drop the lead, and she took off, as expected. For awhile, I could hear the lead being dragged along through the sages and rocks, but I knew it was only a matter of time before it snagged on something. That would be potentially dangerous. By listening, I knew the lead had become snagged, as expected. The good part about that was, Dottie was now stationary, and I would be able to get a hold of her, once found. Remember, it is very dark out, and this is a semi-wilderness area. So I told Annie to "Find Dottie." No problem. She took off, stopping every several feet, and waiting for me to catch up before taking off again. I even had to climb over a barbed-wire fence (yikes!). But sure enough, it wasn't long before I saw two pairs of eyes being reflected back at me by my flashlight beam. And sure enough, Dottie was hopelessly tied around several sage brush. Just to give you an idea of the terrain, it was only 40 degrees out, and I had worked up a sweat! I was wearing a windbreaker, but still... Anyway, Annie is just an awesome dog, I have to say-- that was truly a beautiful thing she did! She'll never qualify for the AKC, but in my book, she is one gorgeous dog!
On the subject of beauty, I had another beautiful experience with Annie, my Springer Spaniel this morning (just a couple of hours ago). Since it is still the middle of the night in my region, it is dark out. I took the girls to an unfinished subdivision nestled against a public wilderness reserve area (ancient Native American Petroglyphs and hiking trails). I had Annie off-lead because she's a "good" dog, and Dottie on the long-lead because well, she's Dottie. Well, I managed to drop the lead, and she took off, as expected. For awhile, I could hear the lead being dragged along through the sages and rocks, but I knew it was only a matter of time before it snagged on something. That would be potentially dangerous. By listening, I knew the lead had become snagged, as expected. The good part about that was, Dottie was now stationary, and I would be able to get a hold of her, once found. Remember, it is very dark out, and this is a semi-wilderness area. So I told Annie to "Find Dottie." No problem. She took off, stopping every several feet, and waiting for me to catch up before taking off again. I even had to climb over a barbed-wire fence (yikes!). But sure enough, it wasn't long before I saw two pairs of eyes being reflected back at me by my flashlight beam. And sure enough, Dottie was hopelessly tied around several sage brush. Just to give you an idea of the terrain, it was only 40 degrees out, and I had worked up a sweat! I was wearing a windbreaker, but still... Anyway, Annie is just an awesome dog, I have to say-- that was truly a beautiful thing she did! She'll never qualify for the AKC, but in my book, she is one gorgeous dog!
Pre it becoming illegal, my friends Borders went to ground after foxes! They will also retrieve fur and feather and work reliably with her ferrets (when she had ferrets).
I do despair of dogs who can in NO way do the job they were bred to do trotting round teh show ring, but then the working versions DO still fit the breed standards so you cant blame the standards...
I do despair of dogs who can in NO way do the job they were bred to do trotting round teh show ring, but then the working versions DO still fit the breed standards so you cant blame the standards...
One of the biggest examples of that for me is the GSD. If you look at the working ones ie.. the police dogs, you see they look more like they used to, almost wolf like, whereas the ones you see in the show ring are far from the look of the working ones.emmabeth wrote:Pre it becoming illegal, my friends Borders went to ground after foxes! They will also retrieve fur and feather and work reliably with her ferrets (when she had ferrets).
I do despair of dogs who can in NO way do the job they were bred to do trotting round teh show ring, but then the working versions DO still fit the breed standards so you cant blame the standards...
I do however have 2 pure breeds. One of which the Bullterrier, who have become more long and egg shaped in the nose than they used to be, but have remained much the same in body. Also I have an American bulldog, which is actually the closest you will get to the origional British bulldog. Neither of which are used for what they were bred for, thankfully.
I do like to see the specific breeds of dog in shows, or even just walking down the street. Certain dogs.. like the Bullterriers are very distinct and cannot be confused with any other breed, and I like that in a dog.
Although I dont like what some breeds have turned into.. ie the pug or peek and british bulldog with the breathing issues.
And the point of distorting the skull to that extent was?Maggie wrote: One of which the Bullterrier, who have become more long and egg shaped in the nose than they used to be, but have remained much the same in body.
See the 1874 picture here-
http://www.bullterrier.kiev.ua/bullterr ... story.html
Pretty normal looking dog without exaggeration.
Pam