Overheard at the Dogpark...

Dogwoodblossom · Post by **Dogwoodblossom** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:24 pm

I know that there have been dozens of Victoria V. Caesar threads here (and I am not trying to open up a new one), as well as threads on dominance theory, but I don't think this quite fits with any of those. I apologize if there was somewhere better that I could have stuck this instead of starting a new thread.

But anyway, I overheard a discussion at the dog park today that I thought was interesting and worth sharing. Several of the owners (one of whom was clearly the resident Blowhard/Know it all) were discussing dog training, and one said, "You know who's the best though, Caesar Milan!"

I said nothing, a couple people agreed, and Blowhard guy agreed kinda. He said he liked Caesar and thought his methods were good "for some dogs" and that some trainers hated Caesar because he "handled the dogs too much." This led to a discussion of the 'alpha roll' and dominance theory in general. Apparently (according to these people) being dominant is the same as 'being in charge.' So you cannot be in charge if you aren't 'dominant' and don't practice Caesar's 'techniques.'

I thought all this was BS, but I was keeping quiet and keeping an eye on my dog. Finally the one who brought up Caesar in the first place goes, "You know that one lady, what's her name, the English one?"

"Victoria Stillwell?" I chimed in.

"Yeah her, she really irritates me!" I was shocked into silence again. But the speaker went on to explain that Victoria only teaches "basic" dog training techniques. I assume she meant that the dogs get lots of praise and treats for getting things right, in the way that is reserved for puppies with more 'traditional' training methods. It brought to mind a recent discussion on this board where someone pointed out that at the beginning of The Dog Whisperer there's a big "Don't Try This At Home" warning which is notably absent from It's Me Or The Dog.

What I thought was interesting was the implication that Caesar's techniques were somehow 'advanced' as opposed to Victoria's 'basic.' The fact that Victoria's methods are straightforward and easy to understand are, I think, what make them so useful. Anyone can do what Victoria does.

But to this woman at the dog park that was irritating instead of a relief. Caesar Milan, with his stares and pageantry and his 'shh!' seems to have a kind of magic about him. And I think a lot of the time it is the magic of editing. I thought it was interesting that the mystique of wolves and the smug thrill of some 'advanced' technique that not everyone could do were more important and more impressive than obvious results. It has almost a ritualistic, secret society feel to it. 'Oh, dominance training didn't work for your dog? Well, it's not for everyone...'

I mean, everyone wants immediate results, and Caesar seems to get them himself, when he makes a previously uncontrollable dog stop barking and walk on a leash in about thirty seconds, but you never see the owners on his show do the same thing with the same response. Maybe it's that I've done some clicker training with my own dog but when I watch Victoria's show, I can see the dogs get it and respond, not instantaneously, but usually pretty quickly.

I also see the owners get it. Both shows stress owner responsibility and take pains to point out that whatever your dog is doing wrong, it's probably your fault. With Caesar it's a failing on your part to be more like an alpha wolf, which, how were you supposed to do that?

Victoria shows the owners that they've been accidentally reinforcing the unwanted behavior and then helps the owners learn how to think, so that they don't keep doing it. I also enjoy watching her train them exactly the same way she trains the dogs.

"Here, you try it now.... Perfect! That's exactly right! Good job!"

I just find it a bit mind boggling that someone could have a problem with a how-to show because it was easy to understand.

Fundog · Post by **Fundog** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:58 pm

I'm just guessing here, but I'm thinking that the CM fans are enthralled because they do see him as a sort of "mystical" doggy psychologist, a therapist. He's always talking about "energy," and asking people about their own personal feelings and issues and fears, and "energy" about the circumstances surrounding their dogs' issues. He appeals to them by actually turning their dog's problem into their own personal problem-- seeing a shrink on national television. For example, the golden retriever that was afraid of the air compressor in the garage. Cesar talked to the wife about this, and determined the dog was feeding off of her own discomfort and aggravation regarding the garage and her husband using the air compressor. By working through the wife's discomfort, the dog's discomfort was resolved automatically. That's the part that appeals to CM's fans.

Another thing that appeals to them, is not really the "basics," (a dog that barks all the time, a dog that eats poop, a dog that pulls on the leash), but rather, odd circumstances (a dog that is afraid of the air compressor in the garage, a dog that drools in the car, a dog that licks the fence, scraping his tongue, a dog that won't eat, etc.)

The bottom line is, a lot of the people who watch CM's show are not watching it for personal instruction-- they are watching a "show." It's all entertainment value to them.

Dogwoodblossom · Post by **Dogwoodblossom** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:12 am

"It's all entertainment value to them."

I agree. I just can't imagine trying to apply that to your own real life. But I guess (no offence to anyone! I don't know or care what tv shows you watch, but) it's no different than people who look to Jerry Springer to solve their personal problems. I mean, you can if you want to, but that's not really what it's for.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:07 am

I liken dog-training to building a brick wall.

You have to get the foundations really secure and each layer must be sound before you add the next. If you go too fast and add the decorative twiddly bit before you have ensured each layer below is straight, when that wall comes under pressure the whole lot comes down.

Victoria shows people the basic bricks and mortar. I am sure CM does as well, but this does not get shown on TV, only the twiddly bits on top. People like twiddly bits.

ordinary layers of brick are bor-ing.

Experienced trainers can go from foundations to twiddly bits in one go with the right dog, but if owners try to copy without being clear on how to lay the in-between bits, their wall won't stand, and the first time the wall/dog comes under pressure, the whole lot collapses.

muddyfloors · Post by **muddyfloors** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:16 am

Twiddly bits. Hee!

I like watching VS because I can implement her techniques myself. I think CM does have some sort of natural ability/control with dogs, but he isn't a dog trainer, and people can't always use what they see on his show or they'll likely get hurt. Alpha roll a snarling bulldog, anyone? Yeeks.

Fundog · Post by **Fundog** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:21 am

Last night after I logged off to get ready for work, I thought of another example: "Mythbusters" on the Discovery channel (I don't know if you in the UK get that one). At the beginning of every episode, Adam and Jaime always remind viewers, "Do not try these stunts at home-- EVER!" Now, their program gets a lot of viewers-- people just love Mythbusters! But nobody except the really, really stupid people, or those with their own workshop equipped to safety regulations, would ever dare consider trying some of the stuff they do on that show. I think a lot of that can be applied to Cesar's show-- people who watch it don't actually intend to do that stuff themselves-- they just like watching Cesar do it. And as Nettle, said, they like the twiddly bits too.

Kittylove5 · Post by **Kittylove5** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:43 am

I just love it when a random Victoria VS CM conversation gets brought up when your speaking about dogs. People have the right of freedom of speach and have opinions that's fine but it doesn't nessicarily mean its a right one. Not saying CM is wrong what he does, I just don't agree with a few of his tecniques.

But like my boyfriend says to me, Cesar isn't TELLING anyone to do this at home, it's the idiots who somehow miss the big warning sign in the begining of the show.

I like the fact there are a better way of handling this with Victoria without having Roll it on its back, pinch it or put your hands on a dog.
I like how Victoria Lets the owners try and perfect what she does and if they get it wrong, try, try, try again, afterall, they started the behavior no te dog.

I guess people will always be attracted the big warning signs on shows because its Entertainment.

muddyfloors · Post by **muddyfloors** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:47 pm

Well, this is America after all, home of Rock of Love III and Wife Swap.

scbelle · Post by **scbelle** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:16 am

I'll take this another level up. The other day on our walk, Katie got to meet an unknown neighbor out in her yard. She was very nice, had her own dog as well. As Katie is learning not to jump on new friends, I was holding her on leash when this woman "tssed" her, poked my dog, and commented on how she loved CM!! I politely led Katie off and continued our walk.

How DARE someone else "train" my dog!! Not only do I not "tss" Katie, I certainly do not poke her!

Hopefully, we will not see this woman again!

manda.sue · Post by **manda.sue** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:43 am

I certainly feel your pain scbelle. My dog is learning not to jump, as well. I've had people literally hold him down while he struggled, telling him "Down!" They got a very nice verbal lashing and I had to use all my restraint to stop at that. I am very sorry for your situation but have to say I am very proud of your self-control!

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:03 am

Scbelle, you are in line for a sainthood. What a RUDE woman.

Dogwoodblossom · Post by **Dogwoodblossom** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:40 am

Yeah, that's really not cool. I don't even like touching other people's animals at the dog park without their permission. My dog is small and fluffy and little kids always want to pet her. She loves kids so that's no problem but (if their parents haven't already told them to ask me if it's ok) I always say that it has to be ok with their mom first. I would never presume to know what anyone else is trying teach either their dog or their child or what methods they'd prefer to use.

Of course I suppose if you've never heard of positive only reinforcement it might not occur to you that someone would have a problem with you say, kneeing their jumping dog in the chest like we've all been taught.

A guy at the dog park was giving my dog treats yesterday. I wasn't really cool with that either. We left pretty soon after he showed up.

Noobs · Post by **Noobs** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:45 pm

I never offer other people's dogs treats, you don't know if they have allergies, if their owners are trying to train them to do X without treats, and it's just plain rude.

When a dog at the park jumps on me, I do the "turn around with arms folded" method, I don't say anything to the dog or touch the dog - that's really the only way to keep a dog off you (or attempt to anyway!) without mishandling the dog and offending the owner. It's a shame that this isn't common knowledge at the dog park.

muddyfloors · Post by **muddyfloors** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:30 pm

scbelle wrote: As Katie is learning not to jump on new friends, I was holding her on leash when this woman "tssed" her, poked my dog, and commented on how she loved CM!! I politely led Katie off and continued our walk.

Did your dog actually jump on her, or did this woman just walk up and poke her pre-preemptively?

Kittylove5 · Post by **Kittylove5** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:32 pm

muddyfloors wrote:
scbelle wrote: As Katie is learning not to jump on new friends, I was holding her on leash when this woman "tssed" her, poked my dog, and commented on how she loved CM!! I politely led Katie off and continued our walk.
Did your dog actually jump on her, or did this woman just walk up and poke her pre-preemptively?

That's what I wanted to know. If she Tsst and poked when she just approced, I'm sorry but I would have lost it wih her.